Stupid neighbour scenario

[Para Bellum]

Actually happened but fortunately, I wasn't around. Some teens threw snowballs at my neighbours garden windows. The reasonable reactions of a smart neighour would have been:

1. it's fun for you: strike back with snowballs and accuracy.
2. it's annoying: take your frost-save garden-hose and hose them wet (at 0° Celsius) that should stop them and do no harm.
3. it scares you: close the blinds and call the police.

What did he do? He grabbed a baseball bat (!!!), went down on the street and confronted them. Brining a deadly weapon into that kids-stuff was the most foolish of all possible actions he could have taken.

Fortunately an other neighbor and his sharp trained german shepard were close and before things escalated he said he'd just unleash the beast to see what happens if they don't all clear the street now. Nobody wanted to discuss this with that dog so everybody left, nobody hurt.

So, IMAGINE: You see a neighbour with a known agression-problem waving a baseball-bat at two teen boys (18/19) right as you turn in to your alley. You carry ccw and have a pepper-spray in your car. Your neighbour doesn't know.
What do you do?

1. Just call the police and mind your own business?
2. Call the police and get out of your car and try to cool things down?
3. How?
4. What if it escalates further?

I'm pretty glad I wasn't home or close. If you interfere things can get very bad. If you don't things can get as bad. Stupid people can put you in quite some dilemma...

[jburtonpdx]

So, IMAGINE: You see a neighbour with a known agression-problem waving a baseball-bat at two teen boys (18/19) right as you turn in to your alley. You carry ccw and have a pepper-spray in your car. Your neighbour doesn't know.
What do you do?

1. Just call the police and mind your own business?
2. Call the police and get out of your car and try to cool things down?
3. How?
4. What if it escalates further?

I'm pretty glad I wasn't home or close. If you interfere things can get very bad. If you don't things can get as bad. Stupid people can put you in quite some dilemma...

I choose 2, call and try to talk things down. I like my neighbors, don't want them going away for long stretches of time....

How - Call neighbor by name, ask if those dang punk kids are bugging him again, make sure he knows that I called the cops - on the kids and they are on the way (I am hoping this throws a little reality on him, that the police are coming and he was just threatening a bunch of kids with a baseball bat).

I am just going to say I hope it does not escalate further. The way the law here in Ohio is written, I don't know if I could legally defend the kids as it is possible to say they instigated the situation, regardless of disparity of force (adult with ball bat vs. kids) don't know how the courts would see it. At the same time I could not stand there and watch a bunch of kids get beat with bat, I would have to move in at that point and do something, just not sure what without actually being in the situation...

I guess I would just hope that one of Capt. Charlie's colleagues in this state shows up quickly and settles the entire thing down then sends us all inside to drink some hot cocoa.

[stratus]

+1 jburton.

Also, if it escalates further, it won't be because I did anything to escalate - I'd try and be as diplomatic as possible. But with nutbars, it's hard to really take your own standards and apply them to said nutbar. Therefore, you could inadvertently escalate the situation by saying something reasonable.

But really, what are my alternatives here (using my conscience as a reference point)? It's not like I'm actually gonna stand by and let a kid get his head split open by some creep with a club.

[rapier144]

I always beleived that minding my own business was a full time job. That being said if there wasn't any physical contact then i would be on my way. Get out while the gettings good. What the sayin "no good deed goes unpunished" If the two 18 or 19 year olds can't out run your neighbor well i guess it would turn into a learning experience for them.

[JR47]

First off, how big were the teens, and how many were there? I know some pretty large teen-agers. If there were more than just one or two, then a baseball bat may have been called for. Disparity of force.

That said, if he knew the punks, he should have just called the police. Why risk a physical confrontation on Christmas, when emergency services are already stretched thin? The delay of the police arriving, or an ambulance , due to holiday staffing, could change a poor decision into a homicide.

I would have called the police, called to the group that I had done so, and remained outside of the personal space of the confrontation, but close enough that they all would have felt that there was a witness. Given a choice of the proposed weapons, my sidearm would have been concealed, and the pepper spray would have been in my hand until the police arrived.

The sound of approaching sirens should slow the confrontation markedly.

[RevoRick]

I'm with JR47, you never know what the past history between the kids and the adult is. I believe you owe it to your neighborhood to intervene like this.

[Ares45]

I'd sling the car sideways, using it for cover as I ambushed all three of them with snowballs. Then get back in my car and drive off. Nothing unites enemies like another common enemy. (see how excited us southerners get when someone mentions snowball fights)

Seriously, man that's way out of hand. Two teens doing what teens do. What's the big deal as long as they aren't tearing up your property or pelting your dog with snowballs. You get out of the car and lecture the old man about being an adult and acting like one. Then turn on the kids and tell them they should now better for messing with the "grumpy old neighborhood guy" and if they don't beat a path I'm gonna call your mamma. Gees! Cops and snowball fights, WTH?

Regardless you need to forget about the CCW. You can't puposely involve yourself in the arguement and then draw your weapon when things get out of hand. Legally, sure when the old dude crunches your skull with the bat, but, come on, it's your neighbor and YOUR neighborhood. I'm trying to picture a snowball fight turning into a gun fight in my neighborhood and just can't figure how to get from point A to point B.

[22-rimfire]

I would take some pictures of the kids to identify them. Then, I would simply voice my irratation concerning their actions and tell them how expensive it would be for them to have to replace one of the windows. Moving targets are more fun. But for the most part, I would try to ignore the whole affair unless I believed the window would break with the impacts. Kids being kids. Break a window and I'd make a very unpleasant visit to the parents. No police.

[Capt. Charlie]

At least once in your lives, the vast majority you folks here are going to be faced with the decision of whether or not to intervene in a situation. It might be something as simple as breaking up a fight among school kids, or it might be a robbery. The question of intervention is a good one.

The first thing is to be as sure as you can that you know what's going on. Things are not always as they appear. Were the teens just throwing snowballs, or did they just assault the man's wife? It's hard to know what's going on when you roll up on something out of the blue.

The second thing, if you decide to intervene, is too know where the real threat lies. If the matter between the two combatants is personal, you may just find yourself facing off against both parties! Police officers face this frequently in domestic disputes. Hubby is beating the blue blazes out of th 'lil lady. Cops dive on hubby. Wife grabs a butcher knife & attacks cops. Happens more often than you'd think .

The third thing is diversion. After you've called the cops , a visible or audible diversion can break things up without your getting involved physically. We had one officer that had the ability to defuse things through sometimes outrageous humor. I'm told (I wasn't there) that he broke up a couple fighting by mooning them , and then saying "that's what you folks look like fighting... a couple of real a**'s". Shocked 'em so bad they just stood there with their mouths hanging open, and then burst out laughing . There are better ways to resolve things sometimes than barking orders or physical intervention.

Finally, (actually firstly), when you call the cops, let them know that you aren't involved, but are going to try to break it up, and give them a basic simple description of yourself (I'm wearing a Steelers ballcap, etc.) Remember that when they roll up, they have no idea what's going on or who the aggressor is unless you tell them. They'll just assume that you're part of the problem until things get straightened out, and that can be a real hassle for you.

[armedandsafe]

The first thing is to be as sure as you can that you know what's going on. Things are not always as they appear.

Boy, howdy, that's the truth. I intervened in a cop-chasing-2-armed-perps once. Put the car between me and the perps, had them lying on the ground, disarmed and cuffed by the time the cop came puffing up. Left in a hurry when the cop explained that I had broken up an impromptu training exercise.

Pops

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Hmmm! As a teenager, I have been chased by the outraged target of snowballs. Adding something with a gun - that doesn't help.

At a distance:

1. Yell, I'm calling the cops
2. Kids, you get outta here, NOW!
3. Neighbor dude - I'm calling the cops for you. So relax and go inside.

4. Now when they all join and charge you, open fire!! - This last part is a joke and not serious.

If this was right outside my house - I might press the very loud alarm that calls the cops in an emergency button. The noise might distract all.

[Para Bellum]

First off, how big were the teens, and how many were there? I know some pretty large teen-agers. If there were more than just one or two, then a baseball bat may have been called for. Disparity of force.

two boys 18 or 19, but hey

Disparity of force

?? They were throwing snowballs at windows. No violence IMHO form their side...

It's good to have all these wise comments. For a moment I thought I were surrounded by pinheads like my neighbour.

Ares45:

I'd sling the car sideways, using it for cover as I ambushed all three of them with snowballs. Then get back in my car and drive off. Nothing unites enemies like another common enemy. (see how excited us southerners get when someone mentions snowball fights)

I wouldn't even take that as a joke, but as a great alternative. Taking the seriousness out of the situation by starting a tree-angle snowball battle might be the best way to make things fun and safe again. However, maybe my neighbour would just freak out if I hit him in the face with a snowball, after the kids hit his windows. I'd enjoy it, though

[springmom]

...and sing the Hallelujah Chorus in thanks for the snow!!!! Snow, in Houston? Now, we might go SWIMMING this week, since it's going to be around 80....

Or you could just yell.....

EVERYBODY FREEZE!!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Springmom

[miconoakisland]

18 or 19 year olds throwing snow balls at windows?

Did the windows break? If they did, then I'd suggest stronger glass!

No blood, no foul. Direct those kids to a bothersome neighbor (or neighbour for a european!). Probably a simple "get out of here, I'm gonna call the cops!" would be enough.

Bats and firearms have no business in this scenario. Yell at the kids and get them to move on, then yell at the homeowner for stupidity.

LEO's have enough to deal with during a snow. Don't call them out for snowballs!!

[Yoshi]

Boy, howdy, that's the truth. I intervened in a cop-chasing-2-armed-perps once. Put the car between me and the perps, had them lying on the ground, disarmed and cuffed by the time the cop came puffing up. Left in a hurry when the cop explained that I had broken up an impromptu training exercise.

That’s Hilarious

[Topthis]

Drawing my weapon or pepper spray would NEVER even be considered by me, that irresponsible action most likely would escalte the situation, if not immediately, then it would create all kinds of issues and havoc for the months and possibly years to follow. Diffusing the situation would likely be easy, since most of the parties involved are known to each other. Upon reading the post again, I am left to wonder why the teens chose to throw snowballs at this particular house and why the homeowner was so quick to get a bat. Most likely there is a history of engagements here, be prepared, I doubt this will be the last. I also would have encouraged the homeowner to call the police to file a report, just in case there are further incidents and they begin to really escalate to full blown vandalism.
I have been is similar situations, trying to diffuse, especially at the Mall during Christmas. If they become unreasonable and it looks like it is going to get ugly, I just take my phone out and announce that I am going to place a call to the police. No one has ever wanted to continue in an unruley manner after that announcement and they become more amiable towards diffusing the situation.

[Para Bellum]

I have been is similar situations, trying to diffuse, especially at the Mall during Christmas. If they become unreasonable and it looks like it is going to get ugly, I just take my phone out and announce that I am going to place a call to the police. No one has ever wanted to continue in an unruley manner after that announcement and they become more amiable towards diffusing the situation.

Thanks Topthis! Practical advice from those who have been there always is the best on can get.
stay safe and sound.

[JR47]

What you have seen isn't so much good or bad advice, but rather, advice from different parts of our enviornment. Those who live in large cities vs. the suburbs vs. the rural areas.

Where we came from, teens would engage in some pretty nasty behavior. The idea of teens throwing snowballs at your house is fine, until you have it done to you. In some cases, if nobody came out to fuss, the next thing through the window was a rock, followed by two teens, or more.

If the boys were feeling right, any response that didn't bode discovery was regarded as an invite.

THAT"S how baseball bats and guns get involved in responses. Years of letting "boys be boys" in a liberal setting has raised vicious behavior to a high art in many supposedly higher-income neighborhoods.

Don't be too quick to judge others advice until you see where they come from. As to disparity of force, it's a legal term, and had nothing to do with the snowballs. It refers to the fact that two teenagers, at six feet and 190 pounds, versus a sixty year old at 5' 10" and 160 lbs, is a disparity of force. In that scenario, the baseball bat would be an appropriate defensive mechanism.

So, have a good one, it's not happening to us now, and we can only hope that it doesn't.

[Topthis]

That's what calling the police and filing a report is all about, to create a trail and support for the future. Resorting to grabbing a bat and charging a couple of youths really isn't smart...they were 18 and 19, that means that they were actually adults and it sounds to me like they had a beef with the guy, armed with a bat only means that he plans on having some physical confrontation, against 2 adults! Poor odds, especially dangerous if he actually hits any of them with it. Can you imagine the day in court comes, teen/adults say..."all we did was throw some snow at his house, he comes out with this Deadly Club and starts to swing and hit us with it." You can argue about Castle this and protecting domicile that, but the irreducible minimun is that they threw SNOW at his house and he retaliated with Assault with a Deadly Weapon (keeping in mind the differences between the act of Assault and the act of Battery). Regardless of where you live, you will have a difficult time convincing me that in a situation like this, there is no better choice than trying to diffusing the situation and involving the local law enforcement.

[azurefly]

Who knows what I'd do on-the-spot? I'd like to think I would shout to the guy, "Hey, man, bad idea to bring the bat to handle this problem. You keep on this way and you're gonna end up in jail -- think about it! Go back and call the cops on them if it's a problem, but don't make yourself the bad guy here or you'll be the one they draw guns on and haul off!"

Hopefully he'd listen to reason, curse the kids and turn back inside. I'd then go to the kids and tell them they really need to bug out or they're the ones who are gonna be answering to the cops.


-azurefly

[Sir William]

Sorry, I cannot accept 18/19 y/o as "kids". They are men and are responsible/accountable. Call 911 and advise that a armed confrontation is in progress. A weapon is involved, baseball bat. Yell to warn all that you have called the police and be prepared to kill. You may well become the new target. The alternative is to find a good cover and watch. Once you know there is just a bit of posturing going on, call out to your neighbour and ask if he is OK. The entry of a third party usually defuses events. The yobs don't desire attention. The big decision is whether you are prepared to kill. If not, call 911 and watch, don't get involved. Remember, these are NOT "teenagers", they can vote, join the military, get married and be past clients of the juvenile justice criminal education system.

[zombie_killer]

It depends...
What caliber snowballs are we talking about here? Are they +p? +p+?

[bdc]

Not enough information. What was he growing in the hothouse? HInt hint . . . .

So, the Sgt. is giving us a rundown. We are doing graffitti survellience on a building. A guy comes up and starts to do his artwork. Before you can call it in, a car goes by and a rival gang member shoots the tagger.

Now comes the question. "What do you do".

Lurch raises his hand and is acknowledged and gives the answer: "you don't do nuthin'. There's been no crime committed!" Cheers go up in the room.

Relax, your neighbor was just trying to clean out the gene pool or get ready for spring practice. . . . .

[spacemanspiff]

i'm by no means an aggressive person, nor prone to fits of rage. however when a group of young kids (12-14 yrs old or so) were throwing snowballs at the car i was driving, i did slam on the brakes and threw it in reverse. the kid who threw the snowball bolted for home, the others stood around sheepishly. i didnt threaten them, i merely told them how i did not want to see them ever doing that again, and that if a rock was in the snowball causing the window to break, any driver would be rightly upset.

with that said, i do recall throwing all kinds of things at passing vehicles. packets of mayo/mustard/ketchup. snowballs. mountain ash berries. crabapples. i guarantee if an irate driver ever stopped to express his/her frustration, my behavior would have been corrected in a hurry.

[Mannlicher]

call the cops, its their job to sort this stuff out. Kids started it, if some get their noggins busted, oh well........... Face it, teens are not little boys being naughty. You know that and so do I.