Saw a Glock 21 kB! today

[dawg23]

Snuffy:

I pay $6.99/box of 50 - presuming that no one sells at a loss, yes I'm sure they are glad to see me coming.

Let's see. You save about $.05 per round (assuming your time is worthless and assuming all of that reloading equipment cost nothing and will never wear out). I shoot about 300 rounds per week. So instead of shooting 6 boxes of factory ammo, I could shoot 9 boxes of reloads.

No thanks - for that difference, I'll forego the investment in equipment, I'll forego the depreciation costs, I'll spend my time doing something that pays me more than $3.00 per hour rather than spend it reloading, I'll spend less time cleaning my pistols, and I'll have fewer worries about blowing up a good pistol.

You, of course, should feel free to spend your time as you see fit. You shouldn't feel free to advise people to shoot unjacketed lead reloads in their Glocks (which is where this thread began).

[444]

That is $780 a year if you shoot 300 rounds per week. I would consider that to be pretty significant. I bought a new Bushmaster XM15-E2S yesterday for $800.56. I could get one every year with the savings of just reloading one caliber.

I don't know if you bother, but you could probably make most of that back by saving the brass and selling it. That is 15,600 pieces of brass every year. That much new brass goes for about $1500. If you only got a fourth of that back, it would be well worth it.

[the duck of death]

I put 35M down range last year. I wonder if I saved any $ with my reloads? Oh me oh my!!

[dawg23]

Dear Duck and 444:

Not sure of your point, This thread is about shooting unjacketed lead reloads in G-L-O-C-K-S.

My point is that none of the savings that you describe would lead me to shoot lead reloads in my Glocks (or in any other handgun with polygonal barrels).

If you're shooting unjacketed lead reloads in OTHER weapons, more power to you. If you are advocating that people do this with Glocks, you are doing them an incredible disservice.

[Lofland]

Lots of very interesting info on reloading here, I'll have to start a new thread later with all my newbie questions about that. I had no idea you could get that much $$$ for your used brass.

[the duck of death]

I must have missed the part about not shooting lead in a Glock. What page is that on in the manual? But it does say on page 15 " Do not carry the pistol in the ready to fire condition. This is not the recommended safe-carring method for civilian use.

[dawg23]

Dear Duck:

Seems like you missed most of this thread.

Go back and read this one from the get go and you'll have a much better appreciation of what we've been talking about.

[444]

Dawg, I had several points. #1 is that I hope you are keeping that brass because if you shoot that much, it is worth some pretty decent money. In fact if you are getting a good deal on factory ammo, and sold your brass, it would certainly be competitive with the cost of reloads if not better than reloading. #1 Your post discussed time and money involved in reloading and the cost of reloading in general. #3 You must have also missed the part of the thread where I mentioned that I bought an aftermarket barrel for my Glock 17 so that I can shoot lead with no concerns about it. In all honesty, I almost never shoot my Glock 17, so I can't really justify it in terms of money, but since I don't load jacketed bullets for handguns, it does allow me to shoot my reloads in the Glock if I want to. For someone who does a lot of shooting, the point is, that they can justify not only the cost of reloading but also the cost of an aftermarket barrel. The point of another post I made is that there is a lot more to reloading than just money, and again, I have a barrel that allows me to explore other avenues in reloading with my Glock.

[Scott Conklin]

I'm just kind of lost here. Factory ammo? That's the stuff people with more money than sense shoot so the rest of us can have the brass and make something interesting and accurate out of it, correct?

[Foxy]

I don't reload and I don't really have much interest in reloading. But I do have an interest in making money!

I didn't realize that brass would be worth that much. I'll have to start saving all the empties and seeing if there are any reloaders near me.

[dawg23]

444:

You make excellent points, and I really have no quarrel with them (I did miss the part about your having an aftermarket barrel). My disagreement is with the other posters who feel compelled to try to convince Glock owners that it's OK to shoot unjacketed lead ammo in their Glock pistols just because the owner's manual doesn't spell it out specifically enough to suit them.

I also realize that some people simply enjoy reloading - to try different combinations and to get maximum performance from their weapons. This is great, and I am certainly in no way critical of them. Depending on the caliber and the amount of shooting they do, they may also save some $$$ (although probably not much savings for MOST people in a popular caliber like the 9mm for which factory ammo is only $4.50 /box).

The fact that you bought an aftermarket barrel probably indicates that you and I are in agreement on the Glock/lead issue. You are obviously knowledgeable enough to avoid the lead/overpressure problems even if you were using the factory barrel. BUT a lot of the people who frequent this forum are new to pistols, ammo, reloading , etc. It's these folks that I was trying to warn.

[Lofland]

Only a fool reloads. A wise man becomes good buddies with a bunch of reloaders and gets them to give him free ammo by feeding their egos and telling them how good their loads are! :-)

[the duck of death]

I get it now, the things the manual says we must follow, the things the manual does't say we must follow , the things the manual does't say buy might be implied we must follow and on and on and onnnnnnnn. If understand. Before I was confused now I'm upside down.

[ryucasta]

Dawg,

I had decided to not respond to anymore of your remarks after Tamara requested to this thread take a more civil tone but I'm going to have to renter prematurely. Following your earlier comments about contacting Glock by phone I decided to go one better and I am now awaiting a response from them in writing with regards to the alleged inability of using lead bullets with factory manufactured cartridges in their product.

Unfortunately I had to send it certified mail so I at least will have a confirmation that they received it since their website has no email address to contact them by (http://www.glock.com/contact_us.htm). As soon as I receive a response from them I will post it on this forum and then this will hopefully put the matter to rest.

After all making statements on any venue without written proof to substantiate your position is simply talk and how that old saying go talk is cheap and I’m from Missouri.

BTW, the following excerpt came directly from the Glock website and again no mention of lead bullets it only states that you should not use reloaded ammunition that deviates from factory standards.

http://www.glock.com/safety_rules.htm
8) Only use ammunition recommended by the firearm manufacturer, and always be certain that the ammunition matches the caliber of your gun!
Most modern firearms have their caliber designation stamped into the barrel (for example, "9x19" or ".45 Auto") Your box of ammunition should bear the exact same designation. Just because a cartridge fits into your gun does not mean it is safe to fire. Firearms are designed, manufactured and tested to standards based on factory loaded ammunition. Hand-loaded or reloaded ammunition deviating from factory specifications should not be used. Use only the correct ammunition for your firearm. Attempting to fire even a single improper bullet can destroy your gun and cause serious personal injury or death.

[Powderman]

Folks, it seems like a lot of people are arguing about a problem that is no problem at all.

No, the Glock is not the perfect handgun. No handgun is. But, the manufacturers have specifically stated that there are restrictions to the safe ammunition that it can use. All firearms manufacturers advise using factory new ammunition only in their firearms. Personally, I see that changing as time goes on. But for now, there it is.

As for ammunition restrictions, and bullet restrictions, why are so many people griping about it?

There are other firearms that specifically define performance envelopes, but no one demands to see these restrictions in writing from the manufacturer.

Example #1: Every one with a lick of sense knows that as a rule you do not use smokeless powder in black powder arms. However, in early years, this was not published. We still accept this, because we know that as a rule, smokeless powder plus Black Powder arm equals kaboom.

Example #2: Lots of people have M1 Garands, M1A's, BM-59's, and other rifles of like manufacture. Many owners of these rifles reload for them.

The ones that reload for these rifles know that there is a guideline carved in stone for these rifles--there are only certain propellants, and a narrow range of bullet weights that are suitable for use in these guns. Reloaders know that a load that is perfectly safe in a bolt gun will wreck one of these rifles in a hurry. Why? It's called gas port pressure. Use of to fast, or too slow a propellant, or too heavy a bullet will jack up those pressures fast, leaving you with bent or shattered op rods, excessive gas port erosion, receiver cracking, etc.

Go ahead and shoot some loads with AA 8700 and 200 grain bullets in that Garand. Or, maybe some Hornady Light Magnums. You will only do it a few times, I guarantee.

Bear in mind that these restrictions were NOT published in normal operator's manuals issued by the Armed Services.

So, someone asks about shooting lead through a factory Glock barrel.

There are people on the board who paint themselves as "experts" on the matter, who recommend using hard cast bullets in the Glock. They say, "Hogwash!! Screw the conventional wisdom. Lead is fine!!!"

In an attempt to steer new or inexperienced shooters in the right direction, some of us have stated, "Hey--get it from the horse's mouth. Contact the Glock Factory, in Smyrna GA. Here's the number."

Kinda like telling a kid, "Hey--before you do this, consult your parents, okay?"

Some of these folks have gone on to say, "Aw, screw this!!! Go ahead, shoot lead in that Glock anyway. It's all some plot. We know better!!!"

Kinda like your kids who know better than your advice, eh?

What happens when kids ("experienced" shooters) don't listen to the parents (Glock factories, and school-trained armorers)?

They get a butt-whipping (kaBOOM!!!).

For those of you who will no doubt continue to shoot lead in your Glocks, know that sooner or later, you WILL pay the price for your actions.

Whether it's scraping lead out of the barrel every 50 rounds, or having a gun blow up in your hands, there will be a price.

If you shoot lead in the Glock factory barrel, fine. Your choice.

Just don't recommend that other less experienced shooters to the same. You are creating a dangerous condition.

I'll do something I don't normally do here:

Moderators, please consider closing this thread. Some of the suggestions listed here are hazardous, and can cause injury or death to shooters. Please consider the safety factor.

Thanks.

[dawg23]

Ryucasta:

I've spent a lot of time traveling thru California, but never saw the town of Missouri. I presume it's a nice community.

Seriously, I applaud your willingness to contact the factory. I await the results of your inquiry.


Dawg23

[the duck of death]

I have no objection to not shooting lead in the Glock factory barrel. I have not done so and thus have no personal experience.
All othe conventional wisdom indicates that it should not be done. I do object to people insisting that the Glock manual states that it must not be done. At least I couldn't find it. If it 's in there let me know. I have a 3rd gen Glock so it probably the latest Glock manual. Let me know what page. I guess this is what bothers me, people with Glocks have a fit about shooting reloads (as stated in the manual) they also say no to lead (not in the manual). Then turn around and tell me I'm silly for carring my G23 in cond 3 when the manual states that civilians should carry this way (page 15). Just a little consistancy would be appreciated.

[dawg23]

Dear Duck:

As was suggested earlier, you may find it enlightening to go back and READ THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

You say you "object to people insisting that the Glock manual states it must not be done." If you bother to read the entire thread, I THINK you'll find that only one person (5 days ago) made such a comment. And it has been clarified /corrected numerous times since then in this thread.

The only thing that anyone has insisted on is that it is irresponsible to recommend shooting Glocks with unjacketed lead reloads.

Please don't mis-characterize the previous replies to this thread. Just a little consistency would be appreciated.

[the duck of death]

Ok I read the entire thread. But since I'm confused by the meandering of the subject, why don't you tell me what you want me to discuss. That way I won't upset you when I try to have a discussion on subjects that you object to. Sure do want to keep you happy and mellow.

[Ryder]

$4.50 - $7.00 for a factory loaded box of 50 centerfire cartridges? What brand might these be and where can I get them?

I've been shooting for close to 30 years and have never seen ammo anywhere near that inexpensive, I think you've just convinced me that I've been wasting my time handloading for the last 20.

Thanks!

[dawg23]

I buy most of my ammo from Natchez Shooters Supply:

www.natchezss.com

The ammo that I use in my 9 mm's, my .40's and my .45ACP's as range ammo is Blazer. All of it is FMJ, and some of the Blazers are actaully TMJ (even though marked FMJ). Since I shoot at an indoor range, the TMJ is desirable to reduce airborne lead.

Shipping charges are less than what I would pay in sales tax, and their customer service is excellent. There are two or three states that they don't ship to - I think this includes Tennessee and Georgia.

[ether]

The Beretta manual says not to shoot FMJ bullets directly after lead ones without cleaning in between. You shouldn't do this with any gun. The Glock manual doesn't mention lead. I shoot lead in my Glock 22 without any problems. I also clean my barrel well after every range session. Lead is easy to get out if you'll just use a fairly new bore brush and some Hoppes. The malfunction which is the topic of this thread doesn't seem to have anything to do with lead. It sounds to me like it involved either too much powder or a weak/worn out case or a combination of the 2.

[Powderman]

Repeating my earlier post, for all of you that shoot lead bullets in factory Glock barrels:

"In an attempt to steer new or inexperienced shooters in the right direction, some of us have stated, "Hey--get it from the horse's mouth. Contact the Glock Factory, in Smyrna GA. Here's the number."

I will state it categorically and emphatically here, for the benefit of those who don't know:



Do NOT shoot lead bulleted ammunition in your factory Glock barrel. This was told to me by one of the factory gunsmiths, who has been working there since the factory opened. Shooting lead in a factory Glock barrel WILL CREATE DANGEROUS, OVERPRESSURE FIRING CONDITIONS.

If you don't believe me, fine!! If you shoot lead in your Glock, great!!

Just don't tell others on this board that it is all right when the FACTORY that manufaturers the guns says NOT to.

Buy an aftermarket barrel if you MUST shoot lead in the glock. You can find them for sale at:

www.brownells.com

PLEASE--be safe!!!!!

[ryucasta]

Powderman,

Your concern for the inexperienced shooters of this world is duly noted, but as I stated earlier I have personally sent a letter Certified Mail to Glock at their Smyrna location regarding the usage of factory manufactured cartridges that utilize Lead Bullets with their products. Hopefully they will respond in a timely manner and then this issue will be put to rest one and for all.

[Gabby Hayes]

I neither reload nor shoot non-factory ammo myself, but I have to go with ryucasta on this one. These days folks can sue and win millions if you look at them sideways. If I was on Glock's legal team and had the slightest hint that using lead bullets, factory fresh or otherwise, would clearly "CREATE DANGEROUS, OVERPRESSURE FIRING CONDITIONS," I'd have warnings in dayglow orange six-inch letters to that effect all over their manuals. The vast majority of Glock (or any other brand for that matter) owners will neither call Glock nor visit this website for ammunition advice. Come that unfortunate day in court, what someone may or may not have told another person over the phone isn't going to stand up. The same legal advice that told Glock to advise in writing against civilians carrying with a loaded chamber should have at least mentioned the possible problem with lead bullets. It will be interesting to see how Glock responds in writing, if they do.