Whats your favorite caliber between...9mm...40..and 45 ??

[gringo5]

Matters not which one just as long as you are carrying one of them..

[1031]

RWK - You illustrate my point exactly. You just cannot fathom that someone could take 5 rounds of your .45.....so what are you going to do when they do? You better be prepared because it happens. The .45 is not the Hammer of Thor, as DocSWAT put it first.
355Sigfan just said that his friend DIED when he put 4 rounds of .45 into a guy that kept coming and killed him. That is not the only story like that. And yet, you illustrate what I said exactly, you .45 fans are too delusional to even realize that someone can soak up 5 rounds of .45 just as easily as they can soak up 5 rounds of 9mm. The difference in real shootings has been shown time and again that they both work about the same shot for shot, and the guys that soak up bullets soak up whatever caliber you throw at them, .45 or not.

DocSWAT - Great discussion. I have seen a number of autopsies and gotten information from examiners that have done thousands of autopsies. They all agree that they cannot tell the difference in a wound path from a .45 or a 9mm. The flesh collapses immediately and the wounds are practically identical to a trained examiner. People that I know of that study wounds for a living and are the very best of the best in the businiss state unequivicably that there is no difference in damage from a 9mm to a .45 and that as far as they are concerned it has long been proven in their field that the .45 is no more effective than a 9mm.
As for the average numbers of shots fired: I admittedly got my info from a similar source as yours. GW Law Enforcement magazine just recently did a story on this. They showed what I just stated. The average number of shots fired per person in a shooting is up towards 10. Looking at police shootings in the news, any person can easily see that the average numbers of shots fired is FAR more than a few. The FBI states the number to be more like 12. The only reason the numbers of 2 and 3 came about is because they accidentally counted suicides in the "numbers of shots fired per homocide", and suicides are on-shot-one-kill so they bring the average way down.

The only round I know of that has really been proven effective on the street is the .357 Magnum because it is the only round that thousands of cops have been using for many decades and time and again it proves to be a great stopper. And, even with the .357 I would not count on a few rounds being enough.

I don't see the Rambo movie types being the ones that think it may take a dozen rounds to drop a really bad guy. I see the Rambo types as the ones that carry a .45 and have seen so many movies of people falling backwards when they get shot, that they think they are going to hit a BG with their mighty .45 and it is going to magically make them drop.
I can't count how many times I have seen over the years of people taking several rounds of .45 and it not hardly phasing them. A .45 is not going to magically stop someone that would have soaked up a 9mm.

[blades67]

You forgot 10mm. I don't have a .40 S&W firearm right now, but I have a .40 Magnum (A.K.A. 10mm )

[RWK]

What percentage of individuals hit with five (or more) .45 ACP rounds lived -- or, even, were not immediately incapacitated? I suspect the answer is less than one percent. Can you provide any factual data that substantiates a statistically significant survival rate? If not, I shall remain content with my earlier statements.

[DocSWAT]

First the Nick Name of Hammer of Thor is a very old one...I remember my dad using it during his military days even in the 50s. It just means that it is a hard hitting round. So Word Police put up your cuffs.

Second, the autopsies I have attended at the Georgia Bureau of Invstigation Headquarters, Atlanta City Morgue, and so on disagree with your analysis. We worked enough homicides to the point that occassionally we would attempt to guess at the round used prior to and then again during the autopsy. You are correct about the cavity closing up, but did you ever look at the trama around the wound/cavity. Yes, there you will see the WIDE SPREAD difference. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE and it is noticable! I guess trama analysis wasn't your coroners cup of tea or you just forgot to mention it.

Third, I think there was a World War someplace where a 45 ACP was used EFFECTIVELY....uhmmm where was that.....so the 357 is not the only proven round. Why did the Army carry it for SO MANY YEARS? Yes, the switched to the 9mm and now they are trying to switch again to the 40 cal??? What was the reason for the switch--not because of the ineffectiveness in battle, but the WEIGHT--that is the CARYYING WEIGHT of the round in battle. A soldier can carry more 9mm than 45 per weight....

I am not saying the 9mm, 10mm, & even the 40 cal are not great rounds. All have performed well.........and I even have a 9mm and 40cal and a 10mm on the wish list. I would carry any of these as a primary weapon if needed because I believe in shot placement more than the bullet itself, but if I have the choice of both I will use the 45 and shot placement.

As far as someone taking 5 WELL PLACED rounds of 45 and living...you better not try this at home. It would be intesting to find out just where the perp in your senario took these 4 rounds--maybe 2 in the arms and 2 in shoulder ???--amazing how a small detail left out like that can change one's thinking. Are there cases where someone has received what is considered a kill shot and still walked, returned fire...yes...in EVERY caliber I am sure.

As far as a magical bullet that makes others drop backwards......there is none and I have NEVER stated that there was. Neither has anyone else to my recollection. But there is confidence that when you do your part--shot placement (5 shots--2 to torso, 2 to head, 1-to torso ) and the round does its part the perp will go down. Go to Dekalb County, GA and ask the officer that shot a perp 16 times with a 9mm (Berreta 92f)...the perp returned fire and was running away.............two of the rounds if I remember correctly were considered kill shots and he later dies of them...but only after he returned at least 10 rounds AFTER he was shot. Should I discount ALL 9mm because of this--that would be foolish--just as it is foolish of you to say 45s are not effective because of an incident or two and I am sure there are many more.... But I would like to know just where have you worked that you have seen SO MANY people soak of 45 rounds?

I know I will not change you mind and I'm honestlly not trying to. But, when you begin to cut down people for carrying a caliber of weapon they are comfortable with, proficient with, and trained in, you need to take a second to think before you speak.

[DocSWAT]

you may remember a few of these people??

Sgt. Alvin York

On the morning of 8 October 1918, elements of the 328th Infantry, 82nd Division, United States Army, were pinned down by German machine-gun fire. Seventeen men, under the command of Sgt. Bernard Early, were ordered to out-flank the machine guns.

Shortly after they left their own lines, they came across a German officer and several soldiers having breakfast. Believing that they were surrounded, the Germans surrendered. However, before Early could detach a man to take the prisoners back through the lines, intensive machine gun fire swept the patrol. Eight American soldiers survived. Sgt. Early was killed. As the remaining non-com, Cpl. Alvin York took command of the patrol. While the remaining Americans covered their prisoners, trying at the same time to avoid enemy fire, York spotted the location of the German guns, about 30 yards away. In addition to his Enfield M1917 rifle, he also carried a Colt .45 automatic pistol. The German gunners peeked over the tops of their Maxim guns to avoid hitting their own men.

With the appearance of each face, framed in its "coal-scuttle" helmet, York's Enfield spoke. One shot equaled one dead gunner. York was from the Tennessee mountains where firearms were used to put food on the table. Mountain folk were frugal, making each shot count.

Unnoticed by York, several Germans moved forward, locating York's position. Out of sight, they counted the shots from York's rifle, establishing the pattern of his shooting. They counted a series of 5 shots from his Enfield and rushed York to gain the advantage of the few extra seconds it took to reload the rifle.

As the Germans charged, they came into easy pistol range. York brought the .45 automatic into action, stopping the patrol in its tracks. He continued shooting and advancing, killing a total of 25 German soldiers and capturing 132 by himself. York was promoted to Sergeant and awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Earnest R. Kouma, MSG (then sfg) U.S. Army, Co. A, 72d Tank Battalion. Vicinity of Agok, Korea, 31 August & Sept 1 1950.

Citation: Sgt. Kouma, a tank commander in Co. A distinguished himself by conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty in action against the enemy. His unit was engaged in supporting infantry elements on the Naktong River Front. Near midnight on 31 August, a hostile force estimated at 500 crossed the river and launched a fierce attack against the infantry positions, inflicting heavy casualties.....Sgt. Kouma discovered that his tank was the only obstacle in the path of the hostile onslaught. Holding his ground, he gave fire orders to his crew and remained in position throughout the night, fighting off repeated enemy attacks. During one fierce assault, the enemy surrounded his tank and he leaped from the armored turret, exposing himself to a hail of hostile fire, manned the .50 caliber machine gun mounted on the rear deck and delivered pointblank fire into the fanatical foe. His machine gun emptied, he fired his pistol [1911-A1] and threw grenades to keep the enemy from his tank. After more than 9 hours of constant combat and close-in fighting , he withdrew his vehicle to friendly lines. During the withdrawal through 8 miles of hostile territory, Sgt. Kouma continued to inflict casualties upon the enemy and exhausted his ammunition in destroying 3 hostile machinegun positions. During this action Sgt. Kouma killed an estimated 250 enemy soldiers. His magnificent stand allowed the infantry sufficient time to reestablish defensive positions. Rejoining his company, although suffering intensely from his wounds, he attempted to re-supply his tank and return to the battle area. While being evacuated for medical treatment, his courage was again displayed when he requested to return to the front....

From The Congressional Medal of Honor, the Names, the Deed published by Sharp and Dunnigan.

First Lieutenant Robert M. McGovern, United States Army

On January 30, 1951, IX Corps Division, 1st United States Cavalry, encountered stubborn resistance near Kamyangjan-ni, a small hamlet east of Suwon, Korea. Company A of the 5th Cavalry Regiment had to take yet one more hill on its advance north.

The calvarymen had seen relatively little action since the begining of Operation Thunderbolt. It was an exhausting climb up a hill that day, and the strain of physical exertion was begining to show on the 23-year-old McGovern. Combat was far more physically challenging than his training had prepared him for.

The hill before them looked no different than any of the others they'd attacked in recent days. He deployed his thin platoon in a skirmish line and, at his signal, they started up. Without warning, the Chinese opened fire. From more than a dozen foxholes rifle fire tore into the ranks of the U.S. soldiers.

A machine gun raked the advancing cavalrymen before they could seek cover. One round slammed into McGovern's side, tearing a gaping hole. He crawled behind a boulder, where he applied a field dressing to the wound. His platoon sergeant crawled up and suggested that McGovern retreat back down the hill. He refused, assuring the NCO that he would be all-right.

He told the sergeant, "Get the men ready, in the next break of fire we're going up." He soon stood and began climbing the hill and dodged from boulder to boulder until he closed within a few yards of the machine gun. Behind him, the surviving members of the platoon took cover and laid down a covering base of fire. Before the young officer could launch his final attack, the Chinese threw and rolled a vicious barrage of hand grenades at the group, again halting the advance. Men cried in pain as the hot metal found flesh. One of the men broke cover and ran down the hill, only to he shot dead by the Chinese. Others appeared to be in a state of panic, too. Something had to be done. Without warning, he burst from cover and, alone, he ran toward the Chinese machine gun.

Triggering his carbine, he ran across the rocky ground toward the enemy automatic weapons. Enemy rounds tracked him and tore the carbine from his hands. Undaunted, he pulled his .45 automatic pistol from its holster. Firing his pistol and throwing grenades, he closed on the nest. He killed seven protecting Chinese riflemen before one got him. Just as his last grenade exploded in the machine gun nest, killing its three gunners, enemy fire caught him full in the chest. He died there on the lip of the enemy position.

The recommendation for the Medal of Honor, prepared for him at his men's insistence, slowly wound its way through the bureaucratic channels. In the meantime, public support for the conflict in Korea waned. President Truman became the target for ever-increasing criticism over the conduct of the war. The once well-liked Chief Executive saw his popularity drop drastically. When his Medal of Honor was announced in January 1952, Robert's father, J. Halsey McGovern of Washington, created a stir when he refused to accept the award. He also refused to accept the Silver Star posthumously awarded his second son, a member of the 187th Airborne Regiment who was killed-in-action on February 10, 1951. The senior McGovern's refusal was based on his belief that medals were superfluous. He felt that they did not do justice to all of the heroes of the war in Korea. And, as he told reporters, he did not feel that Truman "was fit to confer medals on anyone's sons."

Several Members of Congress offered to make the presentations to the hero's father, but still be refused. He stated that he did not want to turn refusal into a "political thing." There the matter ended. No presentation ceremony was ever held. Nonetheless, the name of Robert M. McGovern was entered onto the rolls of America's greatest heroes.

–Arlington National Cemetery Web Site

There are more Lengends and Tales at some at true, some are fiction, but none are 9mm:

http://www.sightm1911.com/

[denfoote]

9x19mm all the way!!!!
I tried to become a boulder spitting power freak, I really did!!! I even own a Glock 30. I have nothing against the round, but the 9mm Parabellum works better for me. Now, if that stupid standard capacity magazine ban did not exist, or if I had gotten into it sooner, things probably would be different. But, over $150 for ONE G21 mag is ridiculous!!!:barf:

[Jason Demond]

I'm a sucker for anything in .45 ACP.

[Flattop]

I shot and carried a .45acp in the navy and I shoot and keep one at home now. Just something about a .45acp.

[1031]

RWK - And what percentage of people take 5 solid hits from a 9mm and continue to function? Sure you hear about stories of the occasional, but those are the ANOMALIES which is why you hear about them. A LOT more people are shot with 9mm than .45 and I bet the percentage of those hit with 9mm that keep going are just the same as the percentage that keep going after hit with the .45.


As for the guy who was shot 4 times and then killed the cop, that is 355sigfan's story so I hope he tells it. I myself saw a guy that took 5 rounds of .45, torso hits and leg hits, and he acted like he wasn't even shot. He calmly gave up a half hour later. He walked on those legs that were shot with the mighty .45 and he functioned fine with those .45 caliber holes in his torso. Were they perfectly placed hits? No, but if we are talking about perfect placement, who is to say that 9mm in his chest would have worked worse than a .45 in his chest? We can guess all day about better placement, but the fact is he didn't seem all too bothered by being shot 5 times with a .45.


DocSWAT, I am truly intrigued by your claims of damage beyond the wound path. Please tell me more, I am honestly curious. What kind of damage are you talking about? Are you talking about energy transfer that does damage to surrounding tissues? I am not anti-.45 and I really would like to know more about what you are talking about. The Doctors I am referring to have been examining bullet wounds for decades and are highly adept, and they say that there is no difference in the wound from a 9mm and a .45. But I am willing to hear more from another persepctive. I would love to know how the .45 does damage to the tissues that it does not contact ("damage around the wound path").


As for the stories of people in combat using the .45, I am moved and can practically hear the star spangled banner in the background as I read them, but that has nothing to do with how effective the .45 is. As much as I respect those men, it was their actions that gave them the honor. I see nothing in the accounts that shows the .45 to be more effective than anything else, in fact I could get better factual evidence from a newspaper report of a current police shooting. So some guys had their rifle go out of comission so they used grenades and their issue sidearm to continue fighting, and most of them got killed using the .45....how does that even approach proving that if you hit someone with a .45 they will drop more often than with a 9mm? As such, it is not even approaching scientific proof that the .45 is a more effective round than any other, and it is completely irrelevent to the discussion unless you carry the .45 purely because you think it is patriotic.

[PeterGunn]

Just thought I would provide some balance to the fray here and offer come comments on why I chose a 9mm over a .45 or .40.

The difference between a 9mm (.36 cal.) and a .45 is 0.09. Anybody and I mean anybody who is seriously going to tell me that 0.09 makes that big a difference in a handgun caliber is either blowing wind up my perverbial skirt or needs to have their head examined.

Second, the two rounds in question here seem to be the 9mm and the .45 (big surprise). Before we get to far gone here, it may good to note that these are completely different rounds. One is distinctly heavier and slower in most loadings, and the other is of a lighter weight and is much faster in most loadings. In most of the unbiased materials I have read and seen with my two peepers, it would seem to me that both of these rounds are comperable when you get right down to it.

I think it may be good to note that all the so called experts on the boob toob from LAPD, FBI, blah, blah, blah who will sit in front of a camera and say, "We chose the .45ACP better it has greater knock down power.", are all full of it. They are just repeating what some other bozo told them. How many of you would choose a gun/load combination based on what some coper said??? Have you seen COPS!!! Most of these officers can't identify what gun is riding in their own holsters!!!

Bottom line...choice is what makes life in the USA great. I chose a SIG P226/P225 combination in 9mm for several reasons, none of which had anything to do with caliber effectiveness. Reliability, durability, pointability, shootability, accuracy, and mostly comfort in-hand were the reasons I chose these weapons. I load them both with the basic 9BP 115gr. JHP from Federal. For you guys who choose the .45 and the repsective platform to shoot it from...good for you.

But what gets my goad is when somebody has a hard-on for .45 and eludes to the idea that 5 with .45 is a gurantee, but 5 with 9mm is not. WRONG!!!! It ALWAYS depends where the 5 go...with either caliber.

So get off the high horse gents, my 9mm is JUST AS GOOD and EFFECTIVE as your .45s. Why??? Because I'm that good, not my gun or my caliber necessarily.


So flame away (running and ducking for cover)!!!

[TCW]

Went to the range...my .40 is so easy for me to handle. I still can't figure out what the problem is. Maybe I'm just used to it. Of course my gun is a full-size (SIG P226).

This caliber war thing is interesting, but I think the secret answer is that there is no right answer...whichever works for you is the right one(s). For me it's .45 and .40

[vyper005]

I like the 9mm as well but what happens if you do get in a bad situation and youre scared...Shaking and the whole bit...Are you really going to be able to hit where you aim ?? Wouldnt a 40 or 45 do more damage if you could only hit the BG's arm or leg ?? Just something to think about...

[ArmySon]

More damage with the .45 ACP -

- slightly larger bullet.. more so when and if it expands
- penetration
- tumbling effect
- cavitation
- shock

Which can all result in a more devasting wound. Can the 9mm do as much damage. Sure. Well placed shots mean everything. However, velocity, bullet diameter (especially upon expansion), bullet type, etc also has a major effect on the wound.

I have nothing against the 9mm (I carry the 9 on occassion myself). Just don't knock those that carry the .45.

Special Forces Operators have their choice of any firearm. They choose various customized 1911's chambered in .45 ACP not because some politician told them to but because the round is time proven and it works.

[DocSWAT]

Yes, 1031 you are right,

people get shot by a 45 --5 times and just walk up and give up. I am so glad you witnessed this and could relate at least one story OF THE MANY you state you have witnessed. I am sure all your Ninja Mall Warriors are proud of your studies and expertise in the area of ballistics.

Yes, again you are right --all of those hereos of the past were just men doing their duty to God and country and their weapons had nothing to do with thier success. They could have done the same thing with a sling shot, BB-Gun, Pellet gun, or 9mm. And though the 45 was used in war it contributes NOTHING to its overall rating as being an effective round, (though for reasons unknown it replaced the .38 caliber, which is an under powered .357). Its time to retire it all together and opt out for a 9mm--are you listening Special Forces, FBI SWAT, LAPD SWAT, Columbus PD and the thousands of others of you out there that trust your lives to this 45 round--shame on you, go get a 9mm!

Yes, again you are right, a bullet only causes damage where it impacts and channels too .....it causes no trama to the surrounding tissues, no blood vessels are ever severed, no bones are chiped sending debris though the body, no muscle trama is ever indicated, no legiment damage is ever cited more often by a larger caliber round vs. and samller caliber....., a larger bullet misses these obstacles in the body the same as a smaller bullet--they are all the same.

Once again I was wrong for quoting the links I posted earlier, the GBI forensic scientists that serve in GA and the FBI ones serving the US, and all the homicides and autopsies I have attended, where I guess aliens were shot with ray guns and that was the differences we saw in the different caliber studies we conducted..... all are wrong, there are no difference!

Now if you don't mind I need to go do some target practice at the range with my 45........but it probably won't hurt the paper targets a bit, afterall according to you, it is an overated, unproven, and a substainly less effective round than the 9mm, and it will barely puncture paper targets. Will you volunteer to hold up my target?

Though the truth be known, some will follow their own path to destruction.

Doc Out!

[1031]

DocSWAT - You claim to have seen autopsies that show the .45 doing more damage, including damage outside the wound channel to distal tissues from hydrostatic shock or somthing. You cite war heroes who used the .45 as if that made them more effective than if they had a Luger in their hand and that is your proof that the .45 is more effective. You claim to have seen shootings where people dropped with a couple rounds of .45, while there are countless incidents of people dropping from a couple rounds of 9mm so that means nothing.

Well, I have seen autopsies and studied the best examiners in the world who disagree with you and say that the 9mm and .45 make an identical wound and are of the same effectiveness. I can cite studies left and right showing time and again that the .45 is not the hammer of Thor, nor more effective than everytthing else. I have seen a guy take 5 rounds of .45 and not be phased by it. I have seen guys take all calibers, and I have never seen a direct trend in which calibers worked better. Some guys drop to one 9mm, some guys are not phased by 5 .45's. 355sigfan is a cop and I have heard him many times tell of his buddy who plugged a guy 4 times with a .45 and his fellow officer was then killed by said man.

So, we have two experiences in the same areas that contradict each other. Leave it to everyone else, I suppose, to decide whose experiences are more valid.

[petej88]

I pick the 9mm in the 357 Sig format.

[ddt4free]

ok let's look at some fuzzy numbers dealing with ww2 and the .45.

German troops issued and used the 9mm

US/Allied troops issued and used the .45

Hmmm, let's see there were 12 Allied troops Killed for every german that was killed.

Just better training!? or could it maybe have someting to do with equipment and caliber choice as well as training. I would venture a guess that Lots of the lead flying around during the big one came flying out of smg's not pistol's anyways.

The very unpolitically correct way I look at things is that The German's make some of the best killing machines ever devised by man and continue to do so. MP5 anyone...I may just go so far as to say this the .45 may be the all american manstopper but I can be pretty sure that if the germans picked the 9mm it is probably because they saw it as most efficient manstopper when you are looking at the big picture. The germans planted alot of god loving, tough as nails, aint gonna ever give up, .45 totin, red blooded Americans.

Yeah, we won the war(of attrition) but I will ask the guy's that did the most killin about what works best. As matter of fact, a country the size of missouri was well on the way to beating the crap out of the entire world....with 9mm's and bolt action rifles. That is an impressive record. Go figure.

Large scale wars and the holy .45

wwI --the flu ended that one for both sides.

ww2 --12 to 1 aint no fun, gotta give the germans the tech advantage.

Korea --a draw .45 breaking even

Nam --got our asses kicked out hard .45 no help there.

Desert Storm --9mm and we are back on top baby. Whew, it's been a long time. We aint never kicked ass like that before.

Me, I like both calibers, but I can carry more 9mm so that means I get to shoot more. The more I shoot the happier I am. 9mm= more shooting= better shot placement= more happiness. Always a plus. As for .40 I'm suprised it is still around. -ddt

[Glock_Racer]

.45ACP = To shoot BGs
.357 magnum = To shoot BGs in their cars
.223 = To shoot BGs that are in great numbers
.308 = To shoot BG from afar

[thumbtack]

9mm

Why: It is the cheapest to shoot.

[Ed2000]

I look at it this way. I can't afford a bunch of premium bullets like cor bon 9mms or bullets of similar quality from other makers. I can afford .45 FMJ. The FMJ is probably not as good as the premium 9mm or .40 bullets, but it is still a proven round. That can not be said of non premium bullets used with other calibers.

[weldonjr2001]

When I leave the house carrying one of these three calibers in the pistols I have, I feel about equally well armed with 13 9mm's or 10 .40's. I feel a little less well armed with 7 or 8 .45's, but just a little. I still feel good about being able to have any of them. In pistols of equal capacity, I would prefer the .40. But I really like all three better than a sharp stick, and I doubt the practical difference on humans as opposed to bowling pins or paper plates is very meaningful. I've been reading and listening to this topic by "experts" and amateurs alike for over 30 years and isn't it funny, we haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet? I doubt we ever will. I think we should feel fortunate in this country, (most parts anyway) that we even have the option for this to be a meaningful discussion. Lighten up and respect the opinions of others. Cheers.

[7th Fleet]

My choice is the good old .45acp, if if was good enough for great grand pappy in the war to end all wars, it's good enough for me.

7th

[355sigfan]

Ed2000


45 ball is proven allright proven to fail at least 40% of the time. The rounds you speak of the premium are proven to work 90 + % of the time. I know of one good cop that died after he shot a bad guy 4 times with 45 ball. Don't tell me that stuff works because it don't
PAT

[Bud Helms]

"If I put 5 rounds of 45 in a person and he is still coming at me I'm am going to empty my other 5 into him...if he is still coming..." I'm aiming for the head too, to change my shorts!

Sam ...9x23! ...