Sobering holes

ctdonath · October 20, 1999, 02:02 PM

Yesterday some co-workers discovered an office window had been shot up; apparently two rounds nicked the window and one penetrated. A .22 or .25 bullet was found (security whisked it away before I could see it), having bounced off a metal bookcase. The building is firmly within the city's industrial zone next to a mini-freeway. There's no obvious reason why it happened; intentional? random drive-by? stray round? dunno.

In the realm of preparing for defense, this hole was rather sobering: the abstract concept is brought closer to home (er, work), and should someone's head have been there instead of a bookcase there would have been no way to prevent the result.

Thoughts? comments? anecdotes?
I'm not quite sure why I bring this up; maybe just to hear educated comments rather than reactions from clueless coworkers.

Paul Revere · October 20, 1999, 02:24 PM

When I was a kid, it wasn't unusal to find a hole in a store window (or office window) apparently the result of a BB or .22 pellet or whatever. Most likely, these sort of things stemmed not from gang violence, but adolescent antics. The hole most likely occurred at night when all office workers were at home.

Today, people make mountains out of mole hills. And the media makes the sky out of a little hot air. Especially when guns are involved.

I would think this sort of thing happens as much today as it ever did. Take a chill pill.

John/az2 · October 20, 1999, 02:34 PM

ctdonath,

I work with windows for hours every day. Bullet holes are no big thing. On those that see the most holes, I tease the owners that I know painters that can put up some bullseyes for them. Then they could score the work of these drive-by pranksters.

Every one of these that I have seen have happened when no one was around, (store closed, late at night).

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

Matt VDW · October 20, 1999, 03:25 PM

If the round that penetrated the window didn't have enough energy to pierce the thin sheet metal of a bookcase, it probably wouldn't have inflicted a fatal wound on a person, either. I know that doesn't excuse the fools who shot your window but at least it's something to ease your worries a bit.

Here's something I've never been sure about: When glass is pocked by a bullet, is the concavity on the side that was hit, or on the other side where some of the glass spalled away?

LoneStar · October 20, 1999, 05:03 PM

This sounds like vandalism with a firearm.

Definitely dangerous & irresponsible, but usually the work of Punk Kids. I'd say the threat to people is very, very thin, but it still exists. Sounds like you've got some kids in your area who would really benefit from one of my Dad's "Come To Jesus" firearm safety classes. He caught me shooting the neighbors cow with a BB gun, and I'm proud to say that almost 20 years later my brother & I are the safest gun handlers I know. Still got the limp too

just kiddin', that went away months ago.

Off the subject:
I learned a lot from that BB gun. The first time I carried it in the house after target shooting. My Dad picked the gun up, pointed it at my leg, and asked if it was loaded. That was the only time I ever wondered about gun that I had handled.

Spectre · October 20, 1999, 05:13 PM

Carl,

I wouldn't worry- other posters are right. Now, if this were during office hours...There is a coating that can be put onto windows that will eliminate penetration from most handgun rounds. Works great for storms, too!

EQUALIZER · October 20, 1999, 05:18 PM

CTDONATH,

As much as we try to prepare mentally and train physically for lethal situations, there are some things that we simply can't prepare for. One thing is inevitable. Everyone who reads this, including me, will someday die. We don't know how or when, but it will come sooner or later. I am very much for safety and training to stop lethal encounters. But as important as it is to be prepared for the short time that we have here, it is infinitely more important to be prepared for eternity. I am not going to preach or get off topic, but there is a clear answer to the questions that you brought up. I would be more than happy to give some information clearly outlineing the solution to all of our problems concerning this. I can be reached by Email at [email protected]
I am willing to correspond by Email, mail, or phone to anyone interested. I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has come this// close to death over two dozen times, although I know that at any given moment of my life we're just a breath away.

Not trying to be morbid, just realistic about an important issue you brought up.

------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)

ctdonath · October 20, 1999, 09:56 PM

The responses are pretty much the other thoughts I had: likely late night, happens occasionally, low power, jerks jerking triggers, etc. My life has little/no exposure to the much-discussed evils; I prep for them, but it's still a bit unnerving when things pop up unexpectedly, especially when in a "you couldn't have done anything about it" form.

Matt: the entry side has a small hole, the exit side is very wide. In this case, penetrating less than 1/4" of glass went from an entry hole of 1/2" to an exit hole over 6" wide.

GreybeardB · October 20, 1999, 10:58 PM

I live in simi-rural, central Indiana.

Just got back from a trip to northern Fla.

We drove only State and US roads through Southern In, Ky, Tenn, NC, Ga and Fla enjoying less traffic and beautiful sceenry.

What really disturbed me was the number of road signs with bullit holes.

Some were obviously shot from residenses near by, but it was evident the majority were done by drive-bys.

Punk kids ? Probably. Irrisponsible and disgusting ? Very.

But the same problem exists on the Interstates. Punk kids ? Perhaps, but I think gang drive-by punks practice on Interstate road signs ( and some lesser roads too ) Guess they have to practice somewhere. Even an office window would make a suitable target.

The point being, all this is somewhat alien to me...... much, much more of it going on the further I get from home.

Am I that fortunate and sheltered ?

------------------
Ralph in In.

Dan · October 21, 1999, 07:04 AM

Out in the location where I live (rapidly urbanizing rural GA), bullet holes in signs are the norm.

In fact, just last night I heard a couple of rapid pistol shots out on the intersection near my subdivision. All I could think about was the death of another stop sign.

Oh the horror of it all...

------------------
Dan

Si vis pacem para bellum!

Check me out at:
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm" TARGET=_blank>

www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm</A>
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm

longhair · October 21, 1999, 07:09 AM

Greybeard, holes in road signs are quite common here in Arkansas (especially the ones comming into the state saying Welcome to the Home of Bill Clinton). I would hazard a guess that very few were put there by gang bangers. Most were put there by kids or by good'ol boys w/ a little too much beer in their brain. Stupid? I agree. But it must happen when there's no traffic around, since I have never heard of anyone getting killed or hurt by such incidents.FWIW

------------------
RKBA
www.southernparty.org

Nestor Rivera · October 21, 1999, 05:04 PM

Have seen many "bullet holes" in glass but some actully were caused by pea gravel and tires, just a thought.

marsh · October 21, 1999, 10:38 PM

Hate to say this but many of the bullet holes in signs on Angeles Crest Highway in Los Angeles County, KA have been put there by County deputies. Have been seen by many who travel that road often, myself included. (I used to use that road quite often.) Funnier was the CHP officer who got busted for skiing down Red Box road. (Very dangerous road.)

Long Path · October 21, 1999, 11:14 PM

Have personally observed a car going by on I-35 E here in Dallas, hand out of the window, firing a pistol rapidly at the huge (1.6 million square feet) white steel and glass office building I work at. This was at 1:00 AM, and these kids were firing from 90 yards away at 70 mph. Impressively, one 12'X 8' sheet of glass actually sustained 3 hits from that particular shooting-- NOT BAD for a punk. These shootings take place about once a month. I actually took one of the bullets to calipers and found that it was a .355 115 g. (9mm), after the glass guys exchanged the windows (I went out to the open-topped dumpster and plucked the bullet from the bottem of the casement frame). In a 2-ply window casing with 1/2" between panes, none of the bullets penetrated the second pane of glass. (Good to note...) These guys are dangerous because it never occurs to them how serious their actions are. Even if they absolutely believe the buiding is empty, what about the odd stray bullet? What about the odd stray person? I had a great uncle who died about 12 years ago from a stray .22 bullet that landed in his chest base-on, at a steep angle. It had come from a LONNNNG way away, by someone careless. These hosers are worse than that foolish coon hunter (or whatever) was, that fateful night. It's not sinister; it's just criminally stupid, to the point of getting people killed.

------------------
Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 22, 1999).]

Jeff Thomas · October 22, 1999, 06:44 AM

ctdonath, I agree with a lot of the comments above. From what I've seen, the rounds in most of these cases are very low power - often air rifles and BB's. Still, your concern is warranted.

One of our businesses had a chronic problem with kids at night, shooting holes in our large windows. They finally got a mannequin, dressed it in a security guard uniform, and put it in the showroom - each night in a different location. Left a light on so you could see 'Sam' the security guard every night. Problem solved.

Regarding dealing more directly with this kind of problem, check out this link: http://www.shattergard.com/index2.html
I believe 3M has a similar product. From what I've seen, these treatments are pretty expensive. But, if I had a serious problem with such a situation I would consider such a window treatment. John / az2's opinion would be interesting on this subject due to his business experience.

Regards from AZ

Ulfilas · October 22, 1999, 08:10 AM

Paul Revere:

"Today, people make mountains out of mole hills. And the media makes the sky out of a little hot air. Especially when guns are involved."

Hot air--you mean like flatulence?

Sorry--It's a Friday.

Matt VDW · October 22, 1999, 08:23 AM

ctdonath: Thanks for the info on the bullet holes in glass.

ctdonath · October 22, 1999, 08:27 AM

Long Path,
This event was similar: the three holes (two nicked, one penetrated) within 2-3 feet of each other, and they were _not_ fired from nearby, most likely outside the security fence and beyond (or from) six lanes of traffic. Surprisingly close group from an idiot at a distance (moving?) with no clear target.

Dark Avenger · October 22, 1999, 12:06 PM

I agree with the replies about the seriousness of these actions. At the end of my street, the sign with the road name has what looks like a hole from a .45 in it. Ten yards behind the sign and luckily a little to the left of the sign is a home. If it were my home I know I would be furious.

Whoever the perp was must ahve been a good shot as the street signs here are about 4" tall and a foot wide.

October 20, 1999, 02:02 PM	#1
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	Yesterday some co-workers discovered an office window had been shot up; apparently two rounds nicked the window and one penetrated. A .22 or .25 bullet was found (security whisked it away before I could see it), having bounced off a metal bookcase. The building is firmly within the city's industrial zone next to a mini-freeway. There's no obvious reason why it happened; intentional? random drive-by? stray round? dunno. In the realm of preparing for defense, this hole was rather sobering: the abstract concept is brought closer to home (er, work), and should someone's head have been there instead of a bookcase there would have been no way to prevent the result. Thoughts? comments? anecdotes? I'm not quite sure why I bring this up; maybe just to hear educated comments rather than reactions from clueless coworkers.

October 20, 1999, 02:24 PM	#2
Paul Revere Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 1999 Posts: 624	When I was a kid, it wasn't unusal to find a hole in a store window (or office window) apparently the result of a BB or .22 pellet or whatever. Most likely, these sort of things stemmed not from gang violence, but adolescent antics. The hole most likely occurred at night when all office workers were at home. Today, people make mountains out of mole hills. And the media makes the sky out of a little hot air. Especially when guns are involved. I would think this sort of thing happens as much today as it ever did. Take a chill pill.

October 20, 1999, 02:34 PM	#3
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,729	ctdonath, I work with windows for hours every day. Bullet holes are no big thing. On those that see the most holes, I tease the owners that I know painters that can put up some bullseyes for them. Then they could score the work of these drive-by pranksters. Every one of these that I have seen have happened when no one was around, (store closed, late at night). ------------------ John/az "The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

October 20, 1999, 03:25 PM	#4
Matt VDW Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 1999 Posts: 1,315	If the round that penetrated the window didn't have enough energy to pierce the thin sheet metal of a bookcase, it probably wouldn't have inflicted a fatal wound on a person, either. I know that doesn't excuse the fools who shot your window but at least it's something to ease your worries a bit. Here's something I've never been sure about: When glass is pocked by a bullet, is the concavity on the side that was hit, or on the other side where some of the glass spalled away?

October 20, 1999, 05:03 PM	#5
LoneStar Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas USA Posts: 259	This sounds like vandalism with a firearm. Definitely dangerous & irresponsible, but usually the work of Punk Kids. I'd say the threat to people is very, very thin, but it still exists. Sounds like you've got some kids in your area who would really benefit from one of my Dad's "Come To Jesus" firearm safety classes. He caught me shooting the neighbors cow with a BB gun, and I'm proud to say that almost 20 years later my brother & I are the safest gun handlers I know. Still got the limp too just kiddin', that went away months ago. Off the subject: I learned a lot from that BB gun. The first time I carried it in the house after target shooting. My Dad picked the gun up, pointed it at my leg, and asked if it was loaded. That was the only time I ever wondered about gun that I had handled.

October 20, 1999, 05:13 PM	#6
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Carl, I wouldn't worry- other posters are right. Now, if this were during office hours...There is a coating that can be put onto windows that will eliminate penetration from most handgun rounds. Works great for storms, too!

October 20, 1999, 05:18 PM	#7
EQUALIZER Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 1999 Posts: 657	CTDONATH, As much as we try to prepare mentally and train physically for lethal situations, there are some things that we simply can't prepare for. One thing is inevitable. Everyone who reads this, including me, will someday die. We don't know how or when, but it will come sooner or later. I am very much for safety and training to stop lethal encounters. But as important as it is to be prepared for the short time that we have here, it is infinitely more important to be prepared for eternity. I am not going to preach or get off topic, but there is a clear answer to the questions that you brought up. I would be more than happy to give some information clearly outlineing the solution to all of our problems concerning this. I can be reached by Email at [email protected] I am willing to correspond by Email, mail, or phone to anyone interested. I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has come this// close to death over two dozen times, although I know that at any given moment of my life we're just a breath away. Not trying to be morbid, just realistic about an important issue you brought up. ------------------ "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)

October 20, 1999, 09:56 PM	#8
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	The responses are pretty much the other thoughts I had: likely late night, happens occasionally, low power, jerks jerking triggers, etc. My life has little/no exposure to the much-discussed evils; I prep for them, but it's still a bit unnerving when things pop up unexpectedly, especially when in a "you couldn't have done anything about it" form. Matt: the entry side has a small hole, the exit side is very wide. In this case, penetrating less than 1/4" of glass went from an entry hole of 1/2" to an exit hole over 6" wide.

October 20, 1999, 10:58 PM	#9
GreybeardB Member Join Date: June 23, 1999 Posts: 58	I live in simi-rural, central Indiana. Just got back from a trip to northern Fla. We drove only State and US roads through Southern In, Ky, Tenn, NC, Ga and Fla enjoying less traffic and beautiful sceenry. What really disturbed me was the number of road signs with bullit holes. Some were obviously shot from residenses near by, but it was evident the majority were done by drive-bys. Punk kids ? Probably. Irrisponsible and disgusting ? Very. But the same problem exists on the Interstates. Punk kids ? Perhaps, but I think gang drive-by punks practice on Interstate road signs ( and some lesser roads too ) Guess they have to practice somewhere. Even an office window would make a suitable target. The point being, all this is somewhat alien to me...... much, much more of it going on the further I get from home. Am I that fortunate and sheltered ? ------------------ Ralph in In.

October 21, 1999, 07:04 AM	#10
Dan Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 1998 Location: Hiram, Ga Posts: 283	Out in the location where I live (rapidly urbanizing rural GA), bullet holes in signs are the norm. In fact, just last night I heard a couple of rapid pistol shots out on the intersection near my subdivision. All I could think about was the death of another stop sign. Oh the horror of it all... ------------------ Dan Si vis pacem para bellum! Check me out at: <A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm" TARGET=_blank> www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm</A> www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm

October 21, 1999, 07:09 AM	#11
longhair Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Location: CSA Posts: 632	Greybeard, holes in road signs are quite common here in Arkansas (especially the ones comming into the state saying Welcome to the Home of Bill Clinton). I would hazard a guess that very few were put there by gang bangers. Most were put there by kids or by good'ol boys w/ a little too much beer in their brain. Stupid? I agree. But it must happen when there's no traffic around, since I have never heard of anyone getting killed or hurt by such incidents.FWIW ------------------ RKBA www.southernparty.org

October 21, 1999, 05:04 PM	#12
Nestor Rivera Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA Posts: 446	Have seen many "bullet holes" in glass but some actully were caused by pea gravel and tires, just a thought.

October 21, 1999, 10:38 PM	#13
marsh Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 126	Hate to say this but many of the bullet holes in signs on Angeles Crest Highway in Los Angeles County, KA have been put there by County deputies. Have been seen by many who travel that road often, myself included. (I used to use that road quite often.) Funnier was the CHP officer who got busted for skiing down Red Box road. (Very dangerous road.)

October 21, 1999, 11:14 PM	#14
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	Have personally observed a car going by on I-35 E here in Dallas, hand out of the window, firing a pistol rapidly at the huge (1.6 million square feet) white steel and glass office building I work at. This was at 1:00 AM, and these kids were firing from 90 yards away at 70 mph. Impressively, one 12'X 8' sheet of glass actually sustained 3 hits from that particular shooting-- NOT BAD for a punk. These shootings take place about once a month. I actually took one of the bullets to calipers and found that it was a .355 115 g. (9mm), after the glass guys exchanged the windows (I went out to the open-topped dumpster and plucked the bullet from the bottem of the casement frame). In a 2-ply window casing with 1/2" between panes, none of the bullets penetrated the second pane of glass. (Good to note...) These guys are dangerous because it never occurs to them how serious their actions are. Even if they absolutely believe the buiding is empty, what about the odd stray bullet? What about the odd stray person? I had a great uncle who died about 12 years ago from a stray .22 bullet that landed in his chest base-on, at a steep angle. It had come from a LONNNNG way away, by someone careless. These hosers are worse than that foolish coon hunter (or whatever) was, that fateful night. It's not sinister; it's just criminally stupid, to the point of getting people killed. ------------------ Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? Matt [This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 22, 1999).]

October 22, 1999, 06:44 AM	#15
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	ctdonath, I agree with a lot of the comments above. From what I've seen, the rounds in most of these cases are very low power - often air rifles and BB's. Still, your concern is warranted. One of our businesses had a chronic problem with kids at night, shooting holes in our large windows. They finally got a mannequin, dressed it in a security guard uniform, and put it in the showroom - each night in a different location. Left a light on so you could see 'Sam' the security guard every night. Problem solved. Regarding dealing more directly with this kind of problem, check out this link: http://www.shattergard.com/index2.html I believe 3M has a similar product. From what I've seen, these treatments are pretty expensive. But, if I had a serious problem with such a situation I would consider such a window treatment. John / az2's opinion would be interesting on this subject due to his business experience. Regards from AZ

October 22, 1999, 08:10 AM	#16
Ulfilas Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 1999 Posts: 297	Paul Revere: "Today, people make mountains out of mole hills. And the media makes the sky out of a little hot air. Especially when guns are involved." Hot air--you mean like flatulence? Sorry--It's a Friday.

October 22, 1999, 08:23 AM	#17
Matt VDW Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 1999 Posts: 1,315	ctdonath: Thanks for the info on the bullet holes in glass.

October 22, 1999, 08:27 AM	#18
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	Long Path, This event was similar: the three holes (two nicked, one penetrated) within 2-3 feet of each other, and they were _not_ fired from nearby, most likely outside the security fence and beyond (or from) six lanes of traffic. Surprisingly close group from an idiot at a distance (moving?) with no clear target.

October 22, 1999, 12:06 PM	#19
Dark Avenger Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 175	I agree with the replies about the seriousness of these actions. At the end of my street, the sign with the road name has what looks like a hole from a .45 in it. Ten yards behind the sign and luckily a little to the left of the sign is a home. If it were my home I know I would be furious. Whoever the perp was must ahve been a good shot as the street signs here are about 4" tall and a foot wide.