Glock Accidental/Negligent Discharge Record - Page 2

Baron Holbach · November 25, 2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Gee, that's great and all, Baron, but it is purely a result of poor training, no more, no less.

Exactly, Dr. Jones. My use of the Post article is intended to buttress the argument that Glock negligent discharges are predominantly due to a lack of training on the part of the shooter. The fact that there were so many NGs should behoove the D.C. Police District to concentrate on training. The police department was so lax in its training methods, that it amounted to negligence and direct responsibility for the NGs, not the Glock pistols.

Drjones · November 25, 2002, 02:13 PM

I knew that!!!

auto45 · November 25, 2002, 02:22 PM

Obvious question, but why don't they just buy another handgun with a double action pull or manual safety?

Glock may have the best "deal" compared to others, but one lawsuit due to an AD would swallow up those savings pretty quick- I assume. Maybe lawsuits are not an issue? Officers like the Glock best?

Just curious!

bountyh · November 25, 2002, 02:37 PM

Bottom line is that fingers accidentally end up on triggers all the time. A gun which is more likely to fire in such cases will have more AD's than a gun which doesn't. The Glock "safety" is gone the second the finger touches the trigger. Given the fact a lot of Glocks are set up for a 5# trigger pull, that is unsafe IMO. A typical DAO auto has a long trigger pull with about a 14# pull weight (so does a revolver). Obvious which one will fire more easily if mis-handled.

tomkatz · November 25, 2002, 02:39 PM

If LEOs are putting their finger on the trigger to get ready in a confrontation, I'm sure with a gun with a safety, that safety would be off in the same situation. As to "normal" double action triggers, when my wife recently shot my glock for the first time, she immediately said to me, wow I thought glocks had hair triggers. That is what the media has led unknowledgable people to believe. The standard trigger is not that light, and a NY trigger is about as safe as most good double action pulls....tom

SgtGunner · November 25, 2002, 03:07 PM

I think it funny that I have seen several comment that, "are you perfect, fingers sometimes end up in the trigger guard." First this is absolutely untrue. Even if the person (cop or not) is not a gun buff, they have a responsibility to learn the manual of arms for whatever weapon they are handling. period, its just that simple.

The only way a gun can fire (barring serious mechanical problems) is for the trigger to be pulled. I have been shooting for 29 years, and carrying for 18, and my finger has never been inside the triggerguard when I was not intending to fire the weapon. period. I thik gumshoe said ALL shooters have made some mistake or other, this is not true either, and no I have never dropped a gun or otherwise mishandled one. It is called proper training and never allowing yourself to become complacent. There was an article in our paper a few days ago where a FHP Trooper was requalifying and "the gun accidentally went off" this is utter bull****....the officer pulled the trigger and the glock did exactly what it was designed to do, it went BANG. Of course he like so many others blame the gun for their lack of training or god-given common sense.

Why any agency would issue one gun for primary and a different as a backup makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Issue is a Beretta .40 and BUG is a Glock 27??? wheres the logic there??

tomkatz · November 25, 2002, 03:13 PM

sgt gunner...amen to all you said, that is why I had my wife shooting my glocks recently, she carries a kahr k9, keep it simple....tom

Handy · November 25, 2002, 03:33 PM

Sgt.Gunner and others,

To all that advertise they have never made a ND type mistake in years of carrying:

Have any of you ever drawn your pistol while being shot at or expecting to? Please illustrate.

I think this is an important point. You can't say you have a reliable 4x4 if you only drive on roads. You can't say your skills are up to the job if you've never had that job.

BamBam · November 25, 2002, 03:34 PM

There should be a sensor in the trigger guard that automatically calls Rosie O'Donnel if an officer's finger is inserted. She can then "activate" the weapon if she thinks the situation warrants.

This must be done "for the children".

MasterBlaster · November 25, 2002, 04:42 PM

I agree with BamBam.

That said, are Glocks more likely to ND than other types due to their design? Yup. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.

I like the idea of no external safety. One less thing to forget in a firefight. In that sense, Glocks are not defective, only hazardous. But all guns are hazardous. It's up to you to decide what kind of safety features you want/don't want and train accordingly. That goes for PD's as well as individuals.

It's a trade-off between the gun's readiness to fire and what level of risk you're willing to accept by handling it. But you can never eliminate human error from the equation entirely.

That said, designing any handgun on which you need to pull the trigger to disassemble is a bad idea. That feature is equivalent to a moron seeker.

And what you seek, you inevitably find.

jtduncan · November 25, 2002, 05:12 PM

Operator error - most of the time!

AD/ND by the shooter NOT the gun.

Edward429451 · November 25, 2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Have any of you ever drawn your pistol while being shot at or expecting to? Please illustrate.

Not with my Glock but with my 1911. (Does a dog attacking count?) I distinctly remember drawing as the dog was charging, releasing the safety with my finger outside the triggerguard, pointing it at the line in the sand and bang, in the grass. With the desired effect of turning the dog from the attack.

Charging teeth is similar in adrenaline to someone shooting at you. (I think.)

A nameless one in my home didn't clear a .308 rifle before bringing it in and setting it on my reloading room table. It laid there for three weeks chambered, safety off without going bang. I picked it up and cleared it one day, suprised that it was ready to go. I knew it was unloaded of course, but still adhere to the rules, so didn't violate #3 and all is well.

Drjones · November 25, 2002, 05:40 PM

Quote:

That said, designing any handgun on which you need to pull the trigger to disassemble is a bad idea. That feature is equivalent to a moron seeker.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....how DARE anyone expect a gun owner to *GASP* UNLOAD their gun before cleaning it!!!

Read my first response to this thread. Perhaps most of you here shouldn't be handling firearms, as I initally said.

OBIWAN · November 25, 2002, 05:56 PM

"Bottom line is that fingers accidentally end up on triggers all the time. A gun which is more likely to fire in such cases will have more AD's than a gun which doesn't"

The only guns that don't go boom when you pull the trigger...are empty ones!

A worse problem would be any gun that DOESN"T go bang when you want it to.

Handy · November 25, 2002, 06:10 PM

I own several guns that don't go boom when the trigger is pulled, loaded or not. Think about it.

OBIWAN · November 25, 2002, 06:23 PM

I wouldn't brag about owning rubber guns...if that is what you mean!

I can think about it as long as I want....it won't change anything...I typed quite precisely..

I don't pull the trigger unless I want the gun to go bang (or boom)

Since I don't pull the trigger unless it is time to shoot...all my guns go bang...or back to the mfg...even the ones that have a safety would fire because the safety would be off.

Kind of silly to pull the trigger with the safety on...IMHO

Safeties are , for the most part, for people that shouldn't carry loaded guns in the first place.

Barney Fife fan club members for instance!

Cause anyone that trusts their safety to a mechanical device.....doesn't get to stand behind me!

Drjones · November 25, 2002, 06:27 PM

Ditto Obiwan.

And another reminder to read my first response to this thread.

OBIWAN · November 25, 2002, 06:29 PM

Something about rule number 3 ...I think...

Handy · November 25, 2002, 06:53 PM

I was speaking of uncocked SA guns.

If you carry a gun in a concealment holster, you're trusting your life to a mechanical device. When you shoot a locked breech autoloader, you're trusting a mechanical device. You do it all the time.

Pistol designs range from those very tolerent of accidents to those not at all tolerant. I refer you to my previous examples of common dexterity mistakes people make all the time, despite the risk of pain and injury.

The greatest majority of car, aircraft and firearm accidents are due to human errors, not mechanical faults. When you deride safety devices, who are these perfect beings you're preaching to?

defox · November 25, 2002, 09:28 PM

Folks,

The Glock has come a far way. During this journey many upgrades have been done to improve the pistol. Nevertheless things have happen during the evolution of the pistol that has led its safety to be questioned. There have been documented evidence related to ADs (mechanical fault) and documented evidence related to NDs (operator error).

In both situations the Glock has a history of above average ADs and NDs even amongst proficient firearm users.

One glaring example is the development of the so-called NY trigger springs. Are you suggesting that the entire NYPD is inept at firearms handling safety?

Finally we love to talk about rule #3. When the SHTF how much of us will stick to that rule!! BE PRACTICAL.

**JohnKSa** · November 25, 2002, 09:53 PM

Quote:

I own several guns that don't go boom when the trigger is pulled, loaded or not. Think about it.

Quote:

I was speaking of uncocked SA guns.

Uncocked Glocks behave similarly...

zxc · November 25, 2002, 10:02 PM

folks y'all found the bottomline I hope.

Hkmp5sd · November 25, 2002, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Then-Deputy Chief Rodwell Catoe wrote in an internal memo in 1990, "An unholstered Glock in the 'street load' mode with the trigger safety mechanism pressed is a profoundly dangerous weapon, even in the most ideal conditions."

Then-Deputy Chief Barney Fife wrote in an internal memo in 1990, "An unholstered Beretta in the 'street load' mode with the ambidextrous safety mechanism released is a profoundly dangerous weapon, even in the most ideal conditions."

Dave T · November 25, 2002, 11:05 PM

Back in 1974 my department was the first in our State to authorize the carry of SA semiautomatics. Many other departments told us the 1911s and Browning HPs were unsafe because of the "external" thumb safety would be forgotten or missed and an officer would get killed.

Now, almost 30 years later, I keep hearing the Glock is unsafe because it doesn't have an external safety.

It would seem that one of these contentions has to be a load of male cow crap. Or, could it be that both views come from the untrained and uninformed?

9x19 · November 25, 2002, 11:17 PM

"...could it be that both views come from the untrained and uninformed?"

Ummmmmmmmmm could beeeee!

November 25, 2002, 03:07 PM	#31
SgtGunner Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: SW Florida.....land of the snowbirds! Posts: 279	I think it funny that I have seen several comment that, "are you perfect, fingers sometimes end up in the trigger guard." First this is absolutely untrue. Even if the person (cop or not) is not a gun buff, they have a responsibility to learn the manual of arms for whatever weapon they are handling. period, its just that simple. The only way a gun can fire (barring serious mechanical problems) is for the trigger to be pulled. I have been shooting for 29 years, and carrying for 18, and my finger has never been inside the triggerguard when I was not intending to fire the weapon. period. I thik gumshoe said ALL shooters have made some mistake or other, this is not true either, and no I have never dropped a gun or otherwise mishandled one. It is called proper training and never allowing yourself to become complacent. There was an article in our paper a few days ago where a FHP Trooper was requalifying and "the gun accidentally went off" this is utter bull****....the officer pulled the trigger and the glock did exactly what it was designed to do, it went BANG. Of course he like so many others blame the gun for their lack of training or god-given common sense. Why any agency would issue one gun for primary and a different as a backup makes absolutely zero sense to me. Issue is a Beretta .40 and BUG is a Glock 27??? wheres the logic there?? __________________ Compromise is not an option "Semper Fidelis" "Life is too short to carry a little pop gun...Make mine .45ACP"

November 25, 2002, 04:42 PM	#35
MasterBlaster Member Join Date: February 8, 2002 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 77	I agree with BamBam. That said, are Glocks more likely to ND than other types due to their design? Yup. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. I like the idea of no external safety. One less thing to forget in a firefight. In that sense, Glocks are not defective, only hazardous. But all guns are hazardous. It's up to you to decide what kind of safety features you want/don't want and train accordingly. That goes for PD's as well as individuals. It's a trade-off between the gun's readiness to fire and what level of risk you're willing to accept by handling it. But you can never eliminate human error from the equation entirely. That said, designing any handgun on which you need to pull the trigger to disassemble is a bad idea. That feature is equivalent to a moron seeker. And what you seek, you inevitably find. __________________ Today, the Remington MasterBlaster represents the culmination of over 50 years of engineering refinements and technological innovation. http://www.remington.com/ammo/industrial/industrial.htm "You just shot an unarmed man!" "Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his front porch with my best friend." - Unforgiven

November 25, 2002, 05:12 PM	#36
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	Operator error - most of the time! AD/ND by the shooter NOT the gun. __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?

November 25, 2002, 11:05 PM	#49
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	Back in 1974 my department was the first in our State to authorize the carry of SA semiautomatics. Many other departments told us the 1911s and Browning HPs were unsafe because of the "external" thumb safety would be forgotten or missed and an officer would get killed. Now, almost 30 years later, I keep hearing the Glock is unsafe because it doesn't have an external safety. It would seem that one of these contentions has to be a load of male cow crap. Or, could it be that both views come from the untrained and uninformed? __________________ RSVN '69-'71 PCSD Ret

November 25, 2002, 11:17 PM	#50
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,753	"...could it be that both views come from the untrained and uninformed?" Ummmmmmmmmm could beeeee! __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

November 25, 2002, 02:13 PM	#27
Drjones Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2002 Posts: 1,239	I knew that!!!

November 25, 2002, 02:22 PM	#28
auto45 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Posts: 427	Obvious question, but why don't they just buy another handgun with a double action pull or manual safety? Glock may have the best "deal" compared to others, but one lawsuit due to an AD would swallow up those savings pretty quick- I assume. Maybe lawsuits are not an issue? Officers like the Glock best? Just curious!

November 25, 2002, 02:37 PM	#29
bountyh Junior member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: NaziFornia Posts: 908	Bottom line is that fingers accidentally end up on triggers all the time. A gun which is more likely to fire in such cases will have more AD's than a gun which doesn't. The Glock "safety" is gone the second the finger touches the trigger. Given the fact a lot of Glocks are set up for a 5# trigger pull, that is unsafe IMO. A typical DAO auto has a long trigger pull with about a 14# pull weight (so does a revolver). Obvious which one will fire more easily if mis-handled.

November 25, 2002, 02:39 PM	#30
tomkatz Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Location: auburn wa. Posts: 111	If LEOs are putting their finger on the trigger to get ready in a confrontation, I'm sure with a gun with a safety, that safety would be off in the same situation. As to "normal" double action triggers, when my wife recently shot my glock for the first time, she immediately said to me, wow I thought glocks had hair triggers. That is what the media has led unknowledgable people to believe. The standard trigger is not that light, and a NY trigger is about as safe as most good double action pulls....tom

November 25, 2002, 03:13 PM	#32
tomkatz Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Location: auburn wa. Posts: 111	sgt gunner...amen to all you said, that is why I had my wife shooting my glocks recently, she carries a kahr k9, keep it simple....tom

November 25, 2002, 03:33 PM	#33
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Sgt.Gunner and others, To all that advertise they have never made a ND type mistake in years of carrying: Have any of you ever drawn your pistol while being shot at or expecting to? Please illustrate. I think this is an important point. You can't say you have a reliable 4x4 if you only drive on roads. You can't say your skills are up to the job if you've never had that job.

November 25, 2002, 03:34 PM	#34
BamBam Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2002 Posts: 204	There should be a sensor in the trigger guard that automatically calls Rosie O'Donnel if an officer's finger is inserted. She can then "activate" the weapon if she thinks the situation warrants. This must be done "for the children".

November 25, 2002, 05:56 PM	#39
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	"Bottom line is that fingers accidentally end up on triggers all the time. A gun which is more likely to fire in such cases will have more AD's than a gun which doesn't" The only guns that don't go boom when you pull the trigger...are empty ones! A worse problem would be any gun that DOESN"T go bang when you want it to.

November 25, 2002, 06:10 PM	#40
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	I own several guns that don't go boom when the trigger is pulled, loaded or not. Think about it.

November 25, 2002, 06:23 PM	#41
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	I wouldn't brag about owning rubber guns...if that is what you mean! I can think about it as long as I want....it won't change anything...I typed quite precisely.. I don't pull the trigger unless I want the gun to go bang (or boom) Since I don't pull the trigger unless it is time to shoot...all my guns go bang...or back to the mfg...even the ones that have a safety would fire because the safety would be off. Kind of silly to pull the trigger with the safety on...IMHO Safeties are , for the most part, for people that shouldn't carry loaded guns in the first place. Barney Fife fan club members for instance! Cause anyone that trusts their safety to a mechanical device.....doesn't get to stand behind me!

November 25, 2002, 06:27 PM	#42
Drjones Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2002 Posts: 1,239	Ditto Obiwan. And another reminder to read my first response to this thread.

November 25, 2002, 06:29 PM	#43
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	Something about rule number 3 ...I think...

November 25, 2002, 06:53 PM	#44
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	I was speaking of uncocked SA guns. If you carry a gun in a concealment holster, you're trusting your life to a mechanical device. When you shoot a locked breech autoloader, you're trusting a mechanical device. You do it all the time. Pistol designs range from those very tolerent of accidents to those not at all tolerant. I refer you to my previous examples of common dexterity mistakes people make all the time, despite the risk of pain and injury. The greatest majority of car, aircraft and firearm accidents are due to human errors, not mechanical faults. When you deride safety devices, who are these perfect beings you're preaching to?

November 25, 2002, 09:28 PM	#45
defox Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2001 Posts: 242	Folks, The Glock has come a far way. During this journey many upgrades have been done to improve the pistol. Nevertheless things have happen during the evolution of the pistol that has led its safety to be questioned. There have been documented evidence related to ADs (mechanical fault) and documented evidence related to NDs (operator error). In both situations the Glock has a history of above average ADs and NDs even amongst proficient firearm users. One glaring example is the development of the so-called NY trigger springs. Are you suggesting that the entire NYPD is inept at firearms handling safety? Finally we love to talk about rule #3. When the SHTF how much of us will stick to that rule!! BE PRACTICAL.

November 25, 2002, 10:02 PM	#47
zxc Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2001 Posts: 105	folks y'all found the bottomline I hope.