Glock Accidental/Negligent Discharge Record

[M1911Owner]

Thanks everyone for the replies to my question.

I think Handy has pretty well summed things up, as I see them. My question was intended to get at the issue of how well the Glock system works when it meets with normal, fallible human beings. And it looks like the answer is that fingers and other items erroneously get on triggers often enough to cause concern. Many have pointed out that good training and common sense help to mitigate the "single point of failure" ND situation. Like Handy and Blackhawk, I have experience as a pilot, and am very aware of how fallible most of us are. (I'll spare everyone the story of how I once nearly landed on top of another plane that was taking off!)

I asked the question because I was thinking of getting a Kahr for possible CCW use. This discussion has given me sufficient cause to be concerned about the unlocked SA design of the Kahr and Glock to rethink this. (OK, OK, it's not really SA--the striker is only half cocked; but for all intents and purposes, it acts like a cocked SA.) I might end up with the Kahr anyway--the PM9 looks like a really nice CCW gun. But, I'm certainly going to look more closely at the Commander and Officer's 1911 models, which have a safety and the same manual at arms as my full-sized 1911 home-defense gun.

[Edward429451]

I know that if I've got a cocked, chambered, safety off M1911 in my hip holster, my pucker factor is going to be way higher than if a DAO is there. Just like Grenade Handling 101 -- the pucker factor goes way up when there's no pin inserted....

You may have something there Blackhawk. I've seen the Glock referred to in print numerous times as being akin to a DAO. Yet, when I first got mine I was admittedly uneasy about carrying one in the pipe, so carryed a primed empty case in it for a short while until I became comfortable with it.

No matter what they say I treat mine gingerly when chambered as if I was handleing my 1911 cocked & unlocked. I think I give the Glock way more attention than say my CA Bulldog when its loaded. So...,

The question should be phrased whether operators are more prone to committing a negligent discharge when handling a Glock

is an accurate reconstruction of the proper question.

Which brings us to...Is is really a design flaw in the Glock itself or merely some overly aggressive advertising wording which leaves the wrong impression on people, that its closer to a DAO than a cocked SA? (Even if its not cocked).

Everybody handles razor blades more gingerly than butter knives. Maybe Glock should've called it a razor blade instead of a butter knife. But then would their police sales be the same??? Aha, therein lies the story...Marketing strategy gone bad.

[Handy]

Excellent story Blackhawk. I'm currently flying rescue helo's up close to max altitude and we triple check everything before we do it.

Baron, obviously the Glock does have a lot going for it from a Police perspective. But the takedown is awful compared to a Sig, where you have to pull the slide back just to actuate the takedown latch.

I don't think anyone has said, "The stock Glock trigger system IS unsafe." But many of us feel it leaves no margin for the errors that ALL people make, even trained ones.

I also don't think anyone would say that the Glock hasn't been involved in more than it's share of ND's. You can blame the operator all you want, but many of those operators wouldn't have had an incident with a different pistol or a NY trigger. They would have made the same mistakes, but with a much better outcome.

[Handy]

Ed,

My take on the Glock is that it is an excellent reactive pistol. Holster-draw-shoot.

But police use their pistols in a very unique way. They treat them as primary weapons, they run with them in hand and they point them at people they don't plan to kill. Maybe the standard Glock trigger isn't up to that many challenges.

The NY Glock trigger is crisp and smooth, very shootable. I recommend it to everyone but gamers.

I also had a Kahr. The trigger was too light and smooth-I only felt comfortable with it in a holster. A P7 or Sig 239 are larger, but were safe in a pocket and therefore slimmer overall.

[Edward429451]

Handy, I think you are right. Where it may be ok to run with a butterknife, one shouldn't run with a razorblade!

[gumshoe4]

Nice summary, Handy.

Bear in mind that a lot of people going into law enforcement and the military these days have little or no experience with firearms. Introduce a handgun like the Glock into the mix and you'd better be sure your firearms training is strict and unforgiving.

I like Glocks and I've carried them on and off duty. Fact is, though, that one little mistake and the gun will go bang. A 1911, by comparison, is safer for the average person, because the grip safety must be adequately depressed and the thumb safety pushed all the way down IN ADDITION to pulling the trigger before the gun will go off.

I find it interesting that some folks here who have or have had jobs requiring the utmost precision-that is, military and civilian pilots-are the ones who have the conejos to stand up and say the truth, to wit-we all make mistakes or have lapses in judgment. They've experienced it first-hand. They know that many air accidents have been caused in whole or in part by human fallibility, even something as simple as the pilot and co-pilot failing to communicate with one another. Human fallibility is why we have both a pilot and a co-pilot on board every commercial passenger aircraft. It's why two armed Air Force officers with equal command authority are in every ICBM control room. It's why commands issued by the Officer of the Deck to the helm are repeated loudly and clearly to the OOD, particularly when two 15,000 ton piles of pig iron are running 100 yards apart from each other during an underway replenishment at 20 knots.

It's also what I was saying in the first place. There is NO perfection when it comes to human behavior. That is why I feel that failing to take that into account when designing a product and incorporating such questionable design features as Glock's trigger pull field strip procedure into the design, particularly when you know the gun is going to many, many people who have had minimal experiences with firearms in the first palce, is both a design and marketing flaw.

No, I don't think it is necessary to sue everybody or attach circuit boards and batteries to guns, but it's also not necessary to run 180 degrees in the opposite direction towards less safety, either. All I'm saying is that human fallibility is a fact of life.

If the recognition that we are fallible makes me an idiot, according to Jimmy, then so be it.

Bob

[Jimmy Mac]

It seems to me that since it takes at least a third grade level of intelligence to be able to field strip a Glock that most people too stupid to check the chamber would also be too stupid to try to field strip one.

[gumshoe4]

I bow to your superior intellect, Jimmy.

And now, I'll move on, having said my piece.

Thanks to all.

Bob

[juliet charley]

In "prone to operator error" terms, I see a continuum probably beginning with DAO revolvers as the least prone to operator error and ending with Glock as the most prone to operator error with everthing else somewhere in between. The Glock just plain lends itself to operator error for several major reasons, and to deny is to do a disservice to yourself and others who may use the weapon.

[Jimmy Mac]

The fact that the pistol has to be dryfired before it can be field striped does not make it a dangerous design.

This is only a problem if its owner is a complete moron.

It has been my experience that most all people that carry Glocks by choice are not morons. Most morons would not have a Glock if you gave them one.

If some police department issues Glocks to complete morons then the leaders of the dept. should be held responable for any ND caused by the officer. If they give a gun of anykind to someone that stupid they are at fault.

If I give my Glock to a 4 year old kid and he shoots the mailman who is responable for the death of the mailman? Glock? The kid?
Or the guy that gave it to him?

It does not take a rocket sciencist to understand that a round in the chamber will fire if you pull the trigger so those with more than a third grade IQ will check the chamber before they pull the trigger.

[Jimmy Mac]

JC

I agree that the Glock is more prone to operator error than some guns.

But there are other guns that are just as dangerous as the Glock in the wrong hands.

The Steyr M series and the Springfield XD for example.

[Handy]

Nice, Jimmy. Making friends and influencing people.

I know quite a few startingly intelligent people that have had lapses in judgement or forgot a procedural step. I know zero people that would ever call that first groups "morons".

If your field strip procedure doesn't involve the trigger, than that weapon's owner is less likely to be called a moron, by you.

[juliet charley]

I think Skeeter Skelton said it best when he said there are only two types of people--those who have had an ADs, and those who have not had an AD yet. It can happen to anyone. It usually involves either exhaustion (a state not uncommon in LE) or being in hurry (or of course, a combination of both).

FWIW, I believe the Glock fieldstripping procedure (and has proven to be) an accident waiting to happen.

[fuchikoma]

I think ultimately it's another question of the right gun for the person.

If you need a manual safety on a gun, you may have noticed when being reprimanded by range officers or similar situations when you have your finger in the trigger guard when you shouldn't. Don't be embarrased, just get a gun that has a safety, and use it.

If you're so confident in your handling skills that you're certain you won't ND even when your mind is wandering elsewhere, maybe a Glock is a good idea for you.

My $0.02:
I have a Glock, but carry is nearly impossible where I live. Personally, for carry, I'd rather train myself any extra bits as needed, and carry a gun that will not fire on it's own (i.e. from dropping), but will fire ANY time the trigger is pulled, as opposed to one that may fire accidentally when dropped, or when some part fails (Glocks have redundant safety features), but will not fire if I leave the safety on by accident, and need the first shot to count. I KNOW that in a relaxed state of mind, I'm not going to ND, but I don't know that in an emergency I'd remember to disengage a safety switch. That's just me though.

(BTW, before field stripping, I remove the magazine, and lock the slide back, then look through the ejection port and out the mag well, then as far into the chamber as I can see. I also never do the check in a hurry, because if I'm in a hurry, I'm not going to have time to clean or repair either.)

[Drjones]

I'm completely with Jimmy on this. (Yimmy )

Folks, anyone who cleans a gun without unloading it first (drop mag, pull slide back to verify clear chamber) deserves to shoot themselves, IMNSHO.

The Glock design is not faulty. As many people here have admitted, it is people that are faulty.

I still say that Glocks are no different than any other gun. Period.

If you do NOT want the gun to go "bang" do not pull the trigger.

If you want/need to pull the trigger, but do not want the gun to go "bang" you darn well better make sure the gun is unloaded.

End of story.

[juliet charley]

I still say that Glocks are no different than any other gun. Period.

Then you are saying there is no reason for choosing a Glock instead of any other handgun. Period.

I don't see a wisdom of such a blanket statement. Frankly, I see a big difference between a
S&W Model 27 and a Glock (or a Blackhawk and a Glock, or a 4506 and a Glock, etc., etc., etc.). If you don't mind, how much experience have you really had with different handguns?

[Jimmy Mac]

Handy

As I said before no one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.

But a deliberate act of knowing pulling the trigger on a handgun without checking the chamber is not an act of any reasonably sane person.

Accidently pulling the trigger under stress is a different thing. I can see that happening to ANYONE even the most highly trained person with ANY firearm. I have pulled a gun under stress and I know how it is. One drunken fool that forced me to draw on him is lucky to be alive today. He is damn lucky I had a 5.5 DAO trigger instead of a 3.5 creep free 1911 trigger.

But a Glock owner accidently blowing a hole in the floor because he was in the process of field striping his gun just proves he is an idiot. Normal sane intelligent people do not do this.

[9x19]

"If you don't mind, how much experience have you really had with different handguns?"

This from a poster who is still confused about Glock's Safe Action design and function...

BTW, "a Model 27" can be a Glock! I have one...

In the same hands, Glocks are as safe as any other gun on the market... in different hands they may be just as unsafe as every other gun on the market.

For the record, I DO know the difference between a cocked single action, and Glock's Safe Action, or the S&W Signma, or the Kahr...

Y'all do know the chamber loaded HS2000/XDns truly are cocked single actions without a manual safety, yes?

Where's your beef with them?

Thought so.... :barf:

[Jimmy Mac]

The XD is a single action with a shorter and lighter trigger than the average Glock and it is MUCH lighter than a Glock with the NY trigger.

The grip safety has no effect on NDs after the pistol is drawn.

So in this example the Glock is safer.

Also don't you also have to dry fire the XD before field stripping?

Don't you also on the Styer?

The Ruger Mk-II?

Most cheap SA striker fired autos?

[MrAcheson]

Unfortunately if you are sloppy with a Glock you may do the following:

1) Drop Mag
2) Pull back slide or rack it a few times
3) Drop slide if necessary
4) Pull trigger

If you treat a glock this way (improperly I will admit) you will eventually ND with it, because you failed to truly inspect the chamber.

Incidentally to point out the problem with training, DrJones gave a simple instruction in his last post ("drop mag, pull slide back to verify clear chamber"). If you did not have much experience with guns and you misread whay DrJones meant you might think that pulling the slide back verified you had a clear chamber (instead of doing it to visual inspect the chamber). After all if you pull back the slide on a gun any round in the chamber pops out right? Well unfortunately not necessarily and you may have just ADed. This is why training with all handguns (but especially Glocks due to the trigger pull step) is important.

[9x19]

As to this quibble over field stripping procedures... let's discuss one of the oldest designs... the 1911.

No need to touch the trigger but that bit about facing the muzzle while rotating the barrel bushing... Isn't that a design flaw?
(Show me 500 1911 shooters and I'll show you 499.5 that turn the muzzle toward their face to depress the spring plug)

Why hasn't it been corrected in the intervening 90 plus years?

Perhaps because it's really only a problem for those who are too tired or distracted to check the chamber first...

It would be alot easier if y'all what have a dislike for the Glock to just title your threads: "Why I dislike Glocks".

Hell, if nothing else at least it'd be more accurate...

[Drjones]

Thanks, 9x19!!!

Then you are saying there is no reason for choosing a Glock instead of any other handgun. Period.

Uh, thanks, but no thanks. Don't put words in my mouth.

The reason I own two Glocks is primarily because they are as reliable and durable as cinder blocks and specifically because they lack a manual external safety.

I fully understand, unlike some here, that barring mechanical failures, guns simply do not fire unless you pull the trigger. I know enough to keep my finger out of the trigger.

Frankly, it feels quite odd to me to have my finger on the trigger. This is how deeply ingrained in me rule #3 is.

I'm quite surprised at how long this thread has persisted.

Look, you do what you want. If you want a safety, buy a gun with a safety. If you don't, buy a gun without one. Do what you like. Just don't try to convince those of us who are comfortable with Glocks that there is something wrong with them.

[Jimmy Mac]

9X19

Good job.

They should just tell it like it is.

[Sarge]

that explodes to the front- at least most of the time.

[tomkatz]

I think I've made my way through all these, nothings been resolved, like drjones said, the glock contingent won't change our minds based on anything we've read here. A few posts ago someone got back into that thing about everyone will have an ND eventually, I just don't buy it and personally, I think if you feel that way quit carrying a gun, cause you are dangerous, you're admitting that you will screw up. Handy mentions the p7, I've read about departments that won't allow that one for backup carry because some have squeezed and pulled the trigger at the same time=ND. I've never owned or shot one so I don't know if that can happen but that's what I've read, so how about it? Is it also a bad gun. No, just subject to the same thing as all guns, dependant on the operator to do things correctly.....tom