Glock Accidental/Negligent Discharge Record

[Blackhawk]

M1911Owner, it turned out, IMO, being a great thread, didn't it?

Like the old song says about love and marriage plus the horse and carriage, Glocks aren't really complete without a holster that covers the trigger.

With a good holster, I'd recommend a Glock to anybody willing to practice and learn. But without a holster, I wouldn't recommend a Glock at all.

Since you're stuck in the PRK, why not take a look at the small Glocks for your purpose?

I also recommend a dedicated pocket if you're going to pocket carry. A gun shouldn't have to share a pocket with ANYTHING!

Good luck!

[BogBabe]

Finally we love to talk about rule #3. When the SHTF how much of us will stick to that rule!!

In my experience, what we do and how we behave in stressful situations is a direct reflection of how we've trained and the habits we've developed in non-stressful situations.

If we train -- all the time -- to keep finger off trigger until ready to fire, then in a SHTF situation, that is exactly what we'll do.

If, OTOH, we get sloppy and lax about Rule 3 and develop the habit of finger on the trigger when not ready to fire, that's what we'll do.

Proper training and practice develop unconscious habits and reflexes that kick in without thought when under stress.

[BogBabe]

everyone will have an ND eventually, I just don't buy it and personally, I think if you feel that way quit carrying a gun, cause you are dangerous, you're admitting that you will screw up.

I've never interpreted that statement that way.

I've always taken it to mean that we are all human, therefore we are all susceptible to errors, and therefore we should always be alert and careful and follow the Rules when handling our guns.

[tomkatz]

bogbabe...if it was put to me the way you said it, I can live with that, it's the way people put it. I just don't like to hear someone carrying a gun saying they will shoot it negligently some day. I still say go about this with the confidence that you will never shoot the gun without meaning to and take every step necessary to make sure of that...tom

[Blackhawk]

Proper training and practice develop unconscious habits and reflexes that kick in without thought when under stress.

Right, and those habits are sometimes called "muscle memory" around here or "neural patterns" elsewhere.

There are some things you simply cannot do without them because there's no time to think through what must be done. Piloting aircraft, especially helicopters, for one. Another is fancy ice skating, but the list is endless.

It only takes about 30 days to establish a physical habit, but that requires repeatedly doing whatever is desired the "right" way if there are alternative ways to do the task. Afterwards, every time the action is repeated, the habit will be reinforced.

Just like you said, "Proper training and practice...."

[jem375]

It's easy to see why most PD's pick Glocks.....price........someone wrote that the NY PD just paid around a million bucks for 4300 glocks.....well, that's around $232 for a gun.....cheap........plus Glock makes sure they keep the contracts by having a better than average trade-in policy......that's good for the Austrians because Kimber or Springfield or most any American gun company won't sell that low except maybe Ruger........Which, by the way, almost happened when Glock was slow to repair the G19's that were failing in the NY PD ...........They had already contacted Ruger for a price when Glock finally decided that they had better repair the glocks .........

[Handy]

There was a really nice series of points made back on page 3 and 4 that I'll just remind everybody of:

1. A light, safetyless trigger is more likely to go off if you put your finger on it when you shouldn't.

2. Everyone occasionally makes mistakes, no matter how important it is or how much they trained. The three pilots on this string all agreed that there is no amount of training that would completely prevent you from doing a dumb thing, no matter how simple. We've received more training than anyone here and have seen every possible stupid error regardless.

A DA trigger adds an extra level of resistance to mistakes and fumbles, which is why modern DA pistols have a lower ND rate than Glocks.


I haven't heard any remarks that refute any of these points, which are really the heart of the question.

[dsk]

Short trigger guns (1911, Glock):

PRO: They're easier to shoot under stress.
CON: They're easier to shoot by mistake.


Long trigger guns (DA autos, revolvers):

PRO: They're harder to shoot by mistake.
CON: They're harder to shoot under stress.

It's a free country. Make your choice.

[9x19]

Handy said: "We've received more training than anyone here and have seen every possible stupid error regardless."

Now that is an arrogant assumption borne of ignorance... Just how the heck do you know the amount of training the numerous other posters on this thread have had? You don't... and you know it. To assume otherwise is simply incorrect, and illustrative of the amusing definition for the word "assume".

BTW, how many stupid things can one do while flying an aircraft?

How many types of stupid gun handling are we talking about here?

Seems logical to me that there is more to remember to do correctly with the former than the latter.

If so, one might logically expect a human to forget one out of a thousand things with more frequency than one out of two (keep your four finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and verify the chamber is empty prior to dry-firing).

Most handgunners can easily remember these two things. I have managed to for 35 years, others for much longer.

If any person can't remember these two things... the type of firearm they are handling really won't matter.

You can talk around that all you want, with suppositions, unrelated analogies, or excuses... but YOU simply can not "refute" it.

[Edward429451]

Pretty good discussion on this 6 page thread. Some good points thrown in but if you've been paying attention you see that the last post says basically what the 2nd post said.

It begins and ends with rule #3. Period. Anyone who makes any claims, arguments, or rebuttals otherwise should not own, carry, nor handle firearms. Ever. Period.

If any person can't remember these two things... the type of firearm they are handling really won't matter.

How many different ways can it be said? LOL. Its a Merry go Round!

[Pampers]

Manson Precision Reamers www, mansonreamers.com offers a red, aircraft aluminium dummy barrel for Glocks.

Wonder why they don't make them for any other gun?

[9x19]

Edward429451,

"Its a Merry go Round!"

Yep... Wheeeeeeee!

[Jimmy Mac]

I really can't see why anyone that has ever shot a Glock could call it a "short trigger" gun and compare it to a 1911.

The 1911 is a single action. It has a "short trigger".

The Glock is a DAO with a much longer trigger pull.

[Sarge]

Probably because in addition to Glocks and 1911s, they have shot a lot of D/A guns like S&W/Colt/Ruger revolvers, Beretta 92s, S&W D/A autos, Sigs etc. In comparison to the first shot trigger action of the true DAs, the Glock does have a shorter, lighter pull- and not entirely unlike the ghastly triggers I've encountered on some sorry, slapped-together GMs.

Heck Jimmy, it's more a matter of individual perception and preferences than anything else. A careless person may well manage to shoot him/her self (or worse, an 'innocent' bystander)with just about anything ever made, including a top-break shotgun. There are simply folks who contend that it is easier for them to accomplish this dubious feat with a Glock or and unlocked '11, than anything else. In the world of autos I might be inclined to agree, considering the frequency with which 'trained' cops manage to Glock themselves these days. But there's really more to the story than that. I've probably had knowledge of more ND's with single action revolvers than anything else, which usually require the cooperation of at least one of the opertor's thumbs to make them able to shoot anything at all.

Maybe Glock outta get into the 'cowboy revolver' market; then we'd have it all, huh?

[juliet charley]

Some folks forget that the term "double action" describes a mechanical function. It has absolutely nothing to do with "feel."

If pulling the trigger compresses the striker spring (or mainspring) and then releases the striker (or hammer), it performs a double action--it makes absolutely no difference how it "feels" or how far the trigger travels. I have single action semi-autos (usually P35 clones) with trigger pulls that "feel" both longer and heavier than Glocks--does that make them "double action?"

All weapons, as compromises, have strengths and weaknesses (in terms of safe handling). The SA revolver has couple--the first being if you cock it, you then have to lower the hammer on a live round, and the second being the old models have no drop safety (a sharp blow to the hammer can cause them to fire--that's why you should carry hammer down on an empty chamber).

Glock's weaknesses are a relatively short, light trigger stroke, coupled with no operator safety and no visual or tactile feedback (i.e., there is nothing to tell you something is happening like a hammer starting to move back or a cylinder starting rotate). Glock pays for its simplicity in operation by also being simpler to accidentally discharge--you can't have one without the other with Glocks.

[Blackhawk]

Why don't you guys who are confused or concerned about action types go nose around here for a while? http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IVB.html

[Handy]

9x19,

I have literally spent hundreds and hundreds of hours doing nothing but training in one of the best military aviation programs in existance. There is no one here who has spent as much time training in the accurate and safe use of a gun as I have spent in the precise and safe piloting of aircraft. Even SEALs don't spend that much time just shooting. It's not arrogant, it's math.

As I know both aviation and shooting, I can tell you that the two skill sets are in fact VERY similar. Coordination, dexterity and the correct interaction with a machine are all there. And they both share the same type of human fallibility.

The only "arrogant assumption" in this thread is that any amount of training or any special mindset can prevent a confusion of the fingers in stressful times. I've seen it happen, we have procedures to prevent it and we train to avoid it, but simple mistakes happen constantly. No matter how much anyone wants to believe it, they are not infallible. They will someday make a mistake.

Whether that mistake results in a ND will be largely determined by the circumstances and the gun they're holding.

[Sarge]

for that interesting and informative link. I noted that it's description of D/A autos made repeated reference to a hammer, something of which the Glock has none.

This is important for two reasons; first and foremost, the Glock is not D/A because it has no S/A. The very term "double action" infers that there are two, and on the Glock there is but one. Now, if you refer to Glock as a "single action" (which it is by definition, because it only has one fire-control option) it's proponents launch themselves into a frenzy of propaganda to convince us that it is really a "double action" of sorts, or anything else so long as we don't think it's a dreaded single action without a safety.

The second reason the hammer is important is because true D/A's & DAO's (which are really trigger-actuated single actions, just like the Glocks) have them, and striker-fired guns do not. Does it matter? Probably not, since either firing mechanism will reliably make the gun go 'bang' when the trigger is pressed; and in either case the gun itself will not give a tinker's dam where it is pointed when it follows that order. The results of the shot depend upon the operator alone, and in times of extreme stress and/or distraction, operators sometimes do the wrong thing. Handy illustrated this point "quite handily", if you'll pardon the play on words. Excellent observations.

A good number of gunwise folks realize this fact, and the D/A and so-called DAO's enjoy quite a following as a result. There are just some folks who like to be able to look at the hammer, see it in it's 'at rest' position, and feel like the world is a better place because of it. Even some folks who are not particularly gunwise notice it. Those of us in LE who carried the cocked & locked 1911 got used to this phenomenon, and were occasionally reminded by well-meaning members of the public "Officer, do you know your pistol is cocked?"

"Why yes ma'am I do, but thank you for noticing."

[9x19]

Handy,

"There is no one here who has spent as much time training in the accurate and safe use of a gun as I have spent in the precise and safe piloting of aircraft."

Again an assumption on your part... some here have been to more than one training course and more than a few pistol competitions. In fact, some people here have been dedicated to handgun shooting longer than you've been in the military.... and all that time behind the trigger IS training time.

Just as I'm sure you consider all your time with a yoke or stick in hand is training.

Please spare us your assumptions. Would that your math skills were the equal of your arrogance.

Good evening to you.

[Mal H]

And this thread was going so well when it could have gone down the tubes within the first 10 posts considering the topic.

Folks, let's keep to, or rather get back on, the high road. K?

[9x19]

Sorry, Mal... too much turkey perhaps.

[juliet charley]

invssgt -

From the link you are so excited about:

DAO is a DA handgun which does not work in SA mode, too, since DA implies SA capability.

From your post:

This is important for two reasons; first and foremost, the Glock is not D/A because it has no S/A.

Sounds to me like the Glock is DAO.

I do get a kick out of some people who should know better find something they like on the internet and post it as the final authority. Who Josh Grosse (author of the link)? What are his credentials? His training? His experience? Why is he an authoritative source?

I leave you with the following quote for Peter Alan Kasler, author of Glock: The New Wave in Combat Handguns. He not only authored the book in conjunction and under the auspices of Glock USA, he is a factory-certified Glock Pistol Armorer, he has written the curricula for teaches courses in Glock amorer techniques and Glock pistol tactics and defense techniques for the Threat Management Institute. He is a professional expert witness in firearms identificiation and usage. The quote is found on page 151 Glock: The New Wave in Combat Handguns:

Glock pistols are recoil operated, double action only semiautomatics (except for the Model 18, which can fire fully automatically).

[Jimmy Mac]

JC is once again correct. I really hate to keep having to admit this.

Anyone that knows anything at all about gun design should know that if the trigger pull does a double action of both cocking and firing the gun it is a double action.


It does not matter if it a hammer or a striker if the trigger is cocking it is the same thing.

I really can't see why anyone can not understand something this simple.

The link posted says the Glock is "half cocked" that is not correct.
It is more like 1/4. Also he only says it "feels" more like a single action.

[Sarge]

is probably a fine fellow and all, but I must admit that he is not on my list of "most read" authors-

I leave you with the following quote for Peter Alan Kasler, author of Glock: The New Wave in Combat Handguns. He not only authored the book in conjunction and under the auspices of Glock USA, he is a factory-certified Glock Pistol Armorer, he has written the curricula for teaches courses in Glock amorer techniques and Glock pistol tactics and defense techniques for the Threat Management Institute. He is a professional expert witness in firearms identificiation and usage. The quote is found on page 151 Glock: The New Wave in Combat Handguns:

With all due respect to yourself and Mr. Kasler, from your CV of his qualifications I would say that he is not simply a Glock proponent; he is practically owned by Glock. And take it from someone with decades in the criminal justice system- being an expert witness qualifies you for nothing other than a fat fee. These people are routinely referred to as prostitute witnesses by folks who deal with them, because if you're willing to spend the money you can always find an "expert" to say just about anything you want.

And Jimmy-

Anyone that knows anything at all about gun design should know that if the trigger pull does a double action of both cocking and firing the gun it is a double action.

I think you have painted yourself into a corner here. Take your Glock, unload it and check the chamber three times. Now point it in a safe direction and dry-fire it. Went 'click', didn't it? Now, without racking the slide, pull the trigger again. Did it go click again? Does it have a 'second strike' capability? Did your trigger pull do a "double action of both cocking and firing the gun"?

I don't hate Glocks, or those who use them; thank God we are still free enough to exercise that choice! But I do get a little annoyed at folks who try to change the definition of long-established firearms terminoligy, to make something appear to be that which it is not. I find this troubling because it is exactly the tactic that anti-gunners use to try and make your Model 1100 bird gun into an "assault rifle." Re-inventing the language was also a favored tactic of the spin doctors and handlers of our not-so-dearly departed ex-president.

Let me try this again-

1) A double action, either revolver or auto, has two fire control options, in that the operator may select to either fire the piece by trigger action alone, or he may cock the hammer and fire it in that manner. These guns have a 'second strike' capability in that another pull on the trigger produces another blow to the primer of the cartridge currently residing in the chamber.

2) The term "double action only" is a misnomer in the first place, and should never have been applied to firearms which feature a single fire-control option, whether they were trigger cocked, pre-set striker fired, or whatever. If you have a single fire control option, and the gun is a semi-auto, then you have a single-action semi auto.

Anything else is simply advertising semantics, and is like saying "My two-wheel drive pickup is really a four-wheel drive because that's what the salesman told me when he sold it to me, and that's what I want it to be!" OK, OK, it's really a four-wheel drive and the moon is made out of green cheese. Enjoy. But your Glock is NOT a double action, no matter how much you want it to be. What it IS, is a single-action, striker fired semi- auto, and a pretty darn good one at that. It's just not for everybody, and I say that's fine too. I hate to think what the world would be like if we all drove cream-colored Yugos.

Josh Grosse may not be Ernest Hemmingway, nor does he need to be. He is simply someone who has gotten it right.

[adk]

People say you just have to be very careful holstering your Glock. Others even say you wont be holstering under stress - meaning you will have time to be careful. And NEVER shove it in your pocket or waistband.

Good advice.

But what if you have to be running and jumping over things and needing BOTH HANDS FREE to climb a fence or an embankment or unlock a door or a car trunk, or whatever, while you are in a fast emergency?

You might be holstering and drawing and reholstering pretty fast, if you were lucky enough to even be wearing your holster when the emergency started.

And under these conditions if you are a civilian who didn't have time to put on a holster, what then?

With a stock Glock, what are the answers?