Glock Accidental/Negligent Discharge Record - Page 7

Edward429451 · November 30, 2002, 02:52 PM

Quote:

But what if you have to be running and jumping over things and needing BOTH HANDS FREE to climb a fence or an embankment or unlock a door or a car trunk, or whatever, while you are in a fast emergency

Quote:

With a stock Glock, what are the answers?

Uh, point the Glock towards where you laid down your rifle and plow the road to it? LOL.

(Keep it in your hand.)

Jimmy Mac · November 30, 2002, 03:37 PM

A 1911 in condition one is a single action. the hammer is cocked. the trigger performs a single action. it releases the hammer allowing it to fall.

The Springfield XD when loaded has a fully cocked striker at all times. The trigger pull performs a single action. It releases the striker allowing it to fall.

If it is cocked it is single action.

A DA revolver and a DA auto had a double action trigger. The trigger pull moves the hammer or striker from the farward position to the rear and then releases it allowing it to fall.

What is so hard to understand about this?

The Glock trigger pulls the striker from its resting position to full cock and releases it allowing it to fall. DOUBLE ACTION.

This is how a Glock works. There is no ifs ands or buts. ALL Glocks work like this except the full auto 18.

You can call it anything you wish but it IS double action only. The fact that is has no second strike has nothing to do with it.

It either is cocked or not. The Glock is not fully cocked. It is DAO end of story.

Handy · November 30, 2002, 05:39 PM

Jimmy,

This thread obviously went far afield, but since you like to talk about the obviousness of mechanics, please consider the CZ-75:

With the hammer cocked, it is considered single action. But when you pull the trigger the hammer is pushed a few degrees to the rear before it is released. The trigger therefore performes a double action of further compressing the mainspring, then releasing it. Sounds alot like the Glock, doesn't it?

The answer to the DA question will not be found in the mechanism. It can only be found in a truly useful and universal definition of "double action" which is obviously lacking. People aren't stupid because they don't use the definitions you do, its narrow minded when you act like they are.

9x19,

I have over 1000 hours. I was only counting a portion as training. What's your problem? Refute my assertions, not my right to make them. You just sound bitter.

9x19 · November 30, 2002, 05:49 PM

Handy,

Have already done so... perhaps you missed it, so I'll repeat:

Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and verify the chamber is empty prior to dry-firing.

If any person can't remember these two things... the type of firearm they are handling really won't matter.

You can talk around that all you want, with suppositions, unrelated analogies, or excuses... but YOU simply can not "refute" it.

Bitter? No, but arrogance borne of ignorance just irks me. {shrug}

frockdutch1 · November 30, 2002, 05:50 PM

Like a Russian Diplomat said at our Marine Corps Live Fire Exercise when he heard the range officer telling our people to make our weapons safe and leave the firing line.......

He said "Iz Gun, Eeez Not Safe".

Nuff Said. Leave your finger off the trigger.

Owner of Glocks, 1911's and BB Guns. They all work the same way.

Handy · November 30, 2002, 05:55 PM

Perhaps you haven't read anything I've written:

1. Telling yourself not to do something isn't a guarantee, because people screw up simple stuff all the time. I back that up with personal experience and studies by military safety centers.

2. A 6 lbs. trigger is easier to accidentally pull than a 12 lbs. trigger. I can't believe you don't believe this one, it's pretty damn obvious.

Sarge · November 30, 2002, 06:30 PM

A double action, either revolver or auto, has two fire control options, in that the operator may select to either fire the piece by trigger action alone, or he may cock the hammer and fire it in that manner. This definition has applied since the first double-action revolvers were offered in the mid-to-late 1800's. Perhaps it makes too much sense to be valid today, but I fail to understand why. Lever actions are still lever actions, and nobody with any sense, or meaninful experience, calls them bolt actions. The introduction of new firearm types does not change the terminology or design of existing ones.

So, how'd the dry-fire exercise work out? Did any of your Glocks re-cock themselves with only a second pull of the trigger? My Sig does; my SP-101 does; my Redhawk does. But of couse they are double actions, and this is what they were designed to do. I guess I could ignore this fact and call them 'single actions' if I so choose, but it won't change what they are. Calling a Glock a double-action doesn't change what it is, either.

juliet charley · November 30, 2002, 07:07 PM

invssgt -

A double action describes what the action (what happens) when you pull the trigger. It does not describe how many ways you can fire the weapon. In a double action, pulling the trigger performs two actions (hence double action)--it compresses the striker (or main) spring (first action) and then releases the striker or hammer (second action). In a single (one) action, pulling the trigger only releases the striker or mainspring.

Quote:

Did any of your Glocks re-cock themselves with only a second pull of the trigger?

What you are describing is a "second strike function." While it is common SA/DA weapons and is a feature on some DAO weapons, it is not a defining characteristic of either a DA or DAO weapon. Again, the defining characteristic of a DA (or DAO) is pulling the trigger performs the double function of compressing the striker or main spring and releasing the striker or hammer.

Blackhawk · November 30, 2002, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Also he only says it "feels" more like a single action.

And that's EXACTLY my point!

How easily can you get an AD with a ready-to-go SA?

How about with a similarly configured DAO?

If you can't realize that it's easier to get an AD with the former, then you also can't realize that it IS more likely that careless handling of a Glock will result in an AD/ND as the original post asked.

It's no slam against Glocks. It's just that their excellent and reliable design makes them less tolerant of clumsy or careless handling.

I, and everybody I can think of who knows how to spell "gun", thinks of DAO actions as being more tolerant of "knocking around" than cocked SA actions. When a cocked SA is in your hand, there's a much higher awareness than when holding a DAO. That's WHY Glocks should be thought of as being LIKE a cocked SA rather than a DAO.

They are neither. But they FEEL like an SA when compared to a DAO. Handle all guns with respect, but handle cocked SAs and those that feel like them with fear and respect.

Drjones · November 30, 2002, 07:49 PM

I agree with Blackhawk.

I think Glocks are neither DAO nor SA. I think they are in their own category.

juliet charley · November 30, 2002, 08:20 PM

Quote:

That's WHY Glocks should be thought of as being LIKE a cocked SA rather than a DAO.

Correct! The Glock trigger feels like a SA, and Glocks should be handled as you would a SA, but when describing the function (as versus the feel) technically they are DAO.

Quote:

that it IS more likely that careless handling of a Glock will result in an AD/ND as the original post asked.

Correct! Glocks are more prone to operator error (and are without the various operator safety common in SA autos).

Quote:

I think Glocks are neither DAO nor SA. I think they are in their own category.

No, they are DAOs with triggers that feel like SAs (and should be handled like SAs--thumb safeties, anyone). They are not their own category--there are several other DAOs that are similar (if anything, the DAO ParaOrd LDA-series trigger pulls are even more SA-like than the Glock).

Edward429451 · November 30, 2002, 08:23 PM

All technicalities aside, if I was a blind man getting to know a Glock, I'd probly say it was a two stage military trigger. Its what it feels like.

After you take up the slack of the glock trigger, it feels very much like a SA trigger and should be treated as such.

Sarge · November 30, 2002, 10:06 PM

JC & Jimmy, if we follow your logic here my Redhawk is an OCTUPLE action because when I pull the trigger with the hammer at rest, it-

1) compresses the mainspring
2) unlocks the cylinder
3) rotates the cylinder
4) withdraws the hammer
5) locks the cylinder again
6) releases the hammer
7) allowing the mainspring to decompress, and
8) firing the cartridge under the hammer

and that doesn't even address what happens when I release the trigger.

No gentlemen, I'm sorry to say that you cannot change history, and the term 'double action' was coined to describe a firearm featuring two seperate and distinct fire control options, long before ol' Gaston was a twinkle in his daddy's eyes. Perhaps this does not make you happy, but I cannot imagine why. Those of us who carried 1911s were never ashamed to simply admit that our weapon of choice was a single-action auto. Rack the slide, and the gun goes bang if you pull the trigger. If it don't go bang, repeat and try again.

If you wish to give it a trendy new-age name, be my guest- but don't try and tell me it's the same as guns I've been shooting for years. The term 'Safe Action', seems to sell guns, but it seems that fewer people are likely to believe it as the 'trained officer' AD/ND and KaBoom numbers pile up.

Edward, you said exactly what I've been thinking, but I have been too busy trying to explain that the wheel is still round to get it said. The Glock trigger action reminds me of nothing so much as a SMLE with the stock screws too tight. Not unusable by any means- but DEFINITELY not 'double action', by feel or definition.

PS- there is no such thing as a 'DAO', anymore than there are three-wheeled bicycles.

Blackhawk · November 30, 2002, 10:15 PM

Without getting into invssgt's contention that there's no such thing as a DAO, I can't find anywhere else to land a blow on this dead horse.

Can we quit now...?

**JohnKSa** · November 30, 2002, 10:31 PM

Quote:

What you are describing is a "second strike function."

LOL! Explain to everyone here about this "second strike function" especially as it applies to the revolvers he mentioned.

The Glock trigger obviously isn't double action--it doesn't function like a double action trigger (unless jc has some really funky revolvers). Given that it's not double action it's also obviously not double-action-only either.

9x19 · November 30, 2002, 11:42 PM

Handy,

(Presuming your last post was directed at me.)
I've read what you've written, its just that it isn't a supportable argument in my plane of reality.

Given all the firearms in private ownership, there are obvioosly alot of people who CAN remember to do things correctly... each - and - every - time they pick up a firearm.

Sure a 6 lb trigger is easier to pull, whether deliberately or accidentally... BUT as I've said... three times now... Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and verify the chamber is empty prior to dry-firing.

Doing both of these negates the weight of pull argument.

If any person can't remember these two things... the extra 6 lbs you cling to so desperately isn't likely to make a big difference... except perhaps in a theoretical world where nobody actually lives.

Bottom line... and since Blackhawk is tired of pushing the merry go round

... you believe your way, and I'll believe mine, as my experience obviously leads me to a vastly differnt position than does yours.

Jamie Young · December 1, 2002, 01:00 AM

2 Cops have died in my area due to handling Glocks wrong. Once was at an indoor pistol range and the other was at home cleaning his. There is an OMEN around them in my area.

Sarge · December 1, 2002, 01:00 AM

and to a few others who stand as testimony that there really is still some intelligent life out there..

juliet charley · December 1, 2002, 09:32 AM

So long as pulling the trigger (1) compresses the striker spring and (2) releases the striker, the Glock is DAO.

(And guys, look again, the Glock is not a revolver--it does work differently.)

9x19 · December 1, 2002, 10:34 AM

BUT... the Glock will only do that AFTER the slide has cycled to pre-set the trigger... setting it apart from DAO systems... as you've been told so many times.

Sarge · December 1, 2002, 11:22 AM

(Bell rings...) "OK, quiet now kids... today we're to learn about action types, which means we're going to play one of your favorite games- "Name that Gun"!

("Hooray!" echoes from the class.)

"Pay attention now kids, because here are your clues-"

"You have to rack the slide to cock it; if you pull the trigger and nothing happens, simply pulling the trigger again does nothing but disappoint you. You have to rack the slide again to make it shoot again; and *big clue here* that is bacause you have ONE and only ONE available fire control option inherent in the design... Guess what it is, kids!"

Beaming, Little Johnnie yells- "IT'S A SINGLE ACTION SEMI-AUTO!"

Showing a battered old GI .45, the teacher says "Absolutely correct! This is an old battlefield 1911 A1 .45 with the spur busted off the hammer, but it still works! This is a classic example of the single action auto. Let's see now, do we know of any other pistols that work like that?"

"From the class- Uh... Browning High Power, Beretta M51 Brigadier, Colt 1903 Pocket, Jennings .22, Lorcin .380, and, uh, Glo...; Glo...; GLOCK!"

Correct again, little Johnny.

SAVE THE CHILDREN! Don't let them grow up without having the opportunity to learn just as much about firearms as we did. We will never pobably get to see fireams knowledge taught in the classrooms of pubic schools, so it's up to us to educate them. Buy and old copy of "Cooper on Handguns" and put it away, then give it to a small child who is learning to read. People are trying to change long-standing firearms terminology every day, and here's a lot of incorrect, dangerous informtion out there.

If we don't teach them, who will? "Experts", from Al Gore's internet?

Blackhawk · December 1, 2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

People are trying to change long-standing firearms terminology every day, and here's a lot of incorrect, dangerous informtion out there.

Ain't that the truth!?

Thing is that SA and DA action descriptions were originally coined to apply to revolvers LONG before autoloaders came on the scene.

When they did, the terminology was adapted fairly successfully, especially if you remember that a revolver is also an autoloader.

Where things got screwed up is when people lost sight of an essestial functional difference between pistols and revolvers. Revolvers are autoloaders, but they're not autocockers, and getting the truth from Clinton is easier than making them so. Pistols, OTOH, are just natural autocockers.

There are two essential but INDEPENDENT functions to fire a "ready" handgun: (1) cocking the spring powered firing mechanism, and (2) releasing the energy to ignite the primer.

#2 is easy to envision and implement. A gun that ONLY does that is an SA action, and they REQUIRE the gun to be cocked beforehand.

Cocking is where things get muddy among some autoloaders, specifically Glocks. The one action to cock the gun, #1, is done in one of three ways: (1) manually, (2) recoil, or (3) trigger.

Glocks can't cock themselves, but neither can the shooter. Since they can't be precocked, they can't be SA. But since they can't be cocked by one action, they can't be DA either.

Glocks aren't SA or DA, they're Glocks!

Another bit of idiocy with trying to adapt old terminology unique to 1911 type pistols, is "Condition". Doesn't work on other types....

juliet charley · December 1, 2002, 02:06 PM

The fact that the Glock has to set the striker does not change the essential fact that pulling trigger performs the double action of compressing the striker spring and releasing the striker. Numerous other modern automatics (e.g., Kahrs, S&W DAOs) and are correctly identified as DAO automatics. Again, if a PD says they want a DAO weapon, Glock will not tell them, "Sorry, Glocks are not DAO." In fact, Glock will approach them and attempt to sell them Glock handguns as DAO weapons. When you show them the money, Glocks are DAO.

Since we are talking about Glocks, the Glock website defines DAO (which should put to rest the "no such thing as DAO" baloney) as follows:

Quote:

Double Action Onlysystems have a constant trigger pull weight and a constant trigger travel, but the trigger pull weight is very high and the trigger travel is extremely long - two aspects which have some influence on accuracy.

They then go on to define the Glock trigger as being just like the DAO except "The moderate trigger pull weight is constant from the first round up to the last round. [and] The adequate trigger travel for discharge is constant. Basically, Glock even describe Glocks as a DAO with a good trigger pull.

kidcoltoutlaw · December 1, 2002, 03:02 PM

most holsters cover the trigger does anybody carry a sig with it cocked.i don't but the trigger is so heavy on the p239 that it would make you think about it for about a sec.not that i would be crazy enough to do it,thanks,keith

Sarge · December 1, 2002, 04:39 PM

Well it should have figured, and now we know who's been doing all the definition-mangling; Glock themselves.

My point regarding the technical impossibility of DAO was a simple one, which you evidently missed. "Double-action" implies two fire-control options; "only" infers one. Sort of like a three-wheeled bicycle. Not happenin' in the real world.

Oh well, this has been fun but there is little point in repeating myself endlessly. Some believe the original definition, some believe adspeak. Whichever you choose, shoot safely and enjoy your freedom. Like life, it is far too precious to waste.

November 30, 2002, 05:49 PM	#154
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,753	Handy, Have already done so... perhaps you missed it, so I'll repeat: Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and verify the chamber is empty prior to dry-firing. If any person can't remember these two things... the type of firearm they are handling really won't matter. You can talk around that all you want, with suppositions, unrelated analogies, or excuses... but YOU simply can not "refute" it. Bitter? No, but arrogance borne of ignorance just irks me. {shrug} __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

November 30, 2002, 05:50 PM	#155
frockdutch1 Junior Member Join Date: June 27, 2001 Location: VA Posts: 8	Glocks are Safe/Unsafe, Guns safe/unsafe..... Like a Russian Diplomat said at our Marine Corps Live Fire Exercise when he heard the range officer telling our people to make our weapons safe and leave the firing line....... He said "Iz Gun, Eeez Not Safe". Nuff Said. Leave your finger off the trigger. Owner of Glocks, 1911's and BB Guns. They all work the same way. __________________ Semper Fi

November 30, 2002, 06:30 PM	#157
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Definitions, etc... A double action, either revolver or auto, has two fire control options, in that the operator may select to either fire the piece by trigger action alone, or he may cock the hammer and fire it in that manner. This definition has applied since the first double-action revolvers were offered in the mid-to-late 1800's. Perhaps it makes too much sense to be valid today, but I fail to understand why. Lever actions are still lever actions, and nobody with any sense, or meaninful experience, calls them bolt actions. The introduction of new firearm types does not change the terminology or design of existing ones. So, how'd the dry-fire exercise work out? Did any of your Glocks re-cock themselves with only a second pull of the trigger? My Sig does; my SP-101 does; my Redhawk does. But of couse they are double actions, and this is what they were designed to do. I guess I could ignore this fact and call them 'single actions' if I so choose, but it won't change what they are. Calling a Glock a double-action doesn't change what it is, either.

November 30, 2002, 10:06 PM	#163
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Boys, boys... JC & Jimmy, if we follow your logic here my Redhawk is an OCTUPLE action because when I pull the trigger with the hammer at rest, it- 1) compresses the mainspring 2) unlocks the cylinder 3) rotates the cylinder 4) withdraws the hammer 5) locks the cylinder again 6) releases the hammer 7) allowing the mainspring to decompress, and 8) firing the cartridge under the hammer and that doesn't even address what happens when I release the trigger. No gentlemen, I'm sorry to say that you cannot change history, and the term 'double action' was coined to describe a firearm featuring two seperate and distinct fire control options, long before ol' Gaston was a twinkle in his daddy's eyes. Perhaps this does not make you happy, but I cannot imagine why. Those of us who carried 1911s were never ashamed to simply admit that our weapon of choice was a single-action auto. Rack the slide, and the gun goes bang if you pull the trigger. If it don't go bang, repeat and try again. If you wish to give it a trendy new-age name, be my guest- but don't try and tell me it's the same as guns I've been shooting for years. The term 'Safe Action', seems to sell guns, but it seems that fewer people are likely to believe it as the 'trained officer' AD/ND and KaBoom numbers pile up. Edward, you said exactly what I've been thinking, but I have been too busy trying to explain that the wheel is still round to get it said. The Glock trigger action reminds me of nothing so much as a SMLE with the stock screws too tight. Not unusable by any means- but DEFINITELY not 'double action', by feel or definition. PS- there is no such thing as a 'DAO', anymore than there are three-wheeled bicycles.

November 30, 2002, 11:42 PM	#166
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,753	Handy, (Presuming your last post was directed at me.) I've read what you've written, its just that it isn't a supportable argument in my plane of reality. Given all the firearms in private ownership, there are obvioosly alot of people who CAN remember to do things correctly... each - and - every - time they pick up a firearm. Sure a 6 lb trigger is easier to pull, whether deliberately or accidentally... BUT as I've said... three times now... Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and verify the chamber is empty prior to dry-firing. Doing both of these negates the weight of pull argument. If any person can't remember these two things... the extra 6 lbs you cling to so desperately isn't likely to make a big difference... except perhaps in a theoretical world where nobody actually lives. Bottom line... and since Blackhawk is tired of pushing the merry go round ... you believe your way, and I'll believe mine, as my experience obviously leads me to a vastly differnt position than does yours. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

November 30, 2002, 03:37 PM	#152
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	A 1911 in condition one is a single action. the hammer is cocked. the trigger performs a single action. it releases the hammer allowing it to fall. The Springfield XD when loaded has a fully cocked striker at all times. The trigger pull performs a single action. It releases the striker allowing it to fall. If it is cocked it is single action. A DA revolver and a DA auto had a double action trigger. The trigger pull moves the hammer or striker from the farward position to the rear and then releases it allowing it to fall. What is so hard to understand about this? The Glock trigger pulls the striker from its resting position to full cock and releases it allowing it to fall. DOUBLE ACTION. This is how a Glock works. There is no ifs ands or buts. ALL Glocks work like this except the full auto 18. You can call it anything you wish but it IS double action only. The fact that is has no second strike has nothing to do with it. It either is cocked or not. The Glock is not fully cocked. It is DAO end of story.

November 30, 2002, 05:39 PM	#153
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Jimmy, This thread obviously went far afield, but since you like to talk about the obviousness of mechanics, please consider the CZ-75: With the hammer cocked, it is considered single action. But when you pull the trigger the hammer is pushed a few degrees to the rear before it is released. The trigger therefore performes a double action of further compressing the mainspring, then releasing it. Sounds alot like the Glock, doesn't it? The answer to the DA question will not be found in the mechanism. It can only be found in a truly useful and universal definition of "double action" which is obviously lacking. People aren't stupid because they don't use the definitions you do, its narrow minded when you act like they are. 9x19, I have over 1000 hours. I was only counting a portion as training. What's your problem? Refute my assertions, not my right to make them. You just sound bitter.

November 30, 2002, 05:55 PM	#156
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Perhaps you haven't read anything I've written: 1. Telling yourself not to do something isn't a guarantee, because people screw up simple stuff all the time. I back that up with personal experience and studies by military safety centers. 2. A 6 lbs. trigger is easier to accidentally pull than a 12 lbs. trigger. I can't believe you don't believe this one, it's pretty damn obvious.

November 30, 2002, 07:49 PM	#160
Drjones Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2002 Posts: 1,239	I agree with Blackhawk. I think Glocks are neither DAO nor SA. I think they are in their own category.

November 30, 2002, 08:23 PM	#162
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	All technicalities aside, if I was a blind man getting to know a Glock, I'd probly say it was a two stage military trigger. Its what it feels like. After you take up the slack of the glock trigger, it feels very much like a SA trigger and should be treated as such.

November 30, 2002, 10:15 PM	#164
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Without getting into invssgt's contention that there's no such thing as a DAO, I can't find anywhere else to land a blow on this dead horse. Can we quit now...?

December 1, 2002, 01:00 AM	#167
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	2 Cops have died in my area due to handling Glocks wrong. Once was at an indoor pistol range and the other was at home cleaning his. There is an OMEN around them in my area. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

December 1, 2002, 01:00 AM	#168
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Thanks JohnK, and to a few others who stand as testimony that there really is still some intelligent life out there..

December 1, 2002, 09:32 AM	#169
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	So long as pulling the trigger (1) compresses the striker spring and (2) releases the striker, the Glock is DAO. (And guys, look again, the Glock is not a revolver--it does work differently.)

December 1, 2002, 10:34 AM	#170
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,753	BUT... the Glock will only do that AFTER the slide has cycled to pre-set the trigger... setting it apart from DAO systems... as you've been told so many times. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

December 1, 2002, 11:22 AM	#171
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Class is in session... (Bell rings...) "OK, quiet now kids... today we're to learn about action types, which means we're going to play one of your favorite games- "Name that Gun"! ("Hooray!" echoes from the class.) "Pay attention now kids, because here are your clues-" "You have to rack the slide to cock it; if you pull the trigger and nothing happens, simply pulling the trigger again does nothing but disappoint you. You have to rack the slide again to make it shoot again; and big clue here that is bacause you have ONE and only ONE available fire control option inherent in the design... Guess what it is, kids!" Beaming, Little Johnnie yells- "IT'S A SINGLE ACTION SEMI-AUTO!" Showing a battered old GI .45, the teacher says "Absolutely correct! This is an old battlefield 1911 A1 .45 with the spur busted off the hammer, but it still works! This is a classic example of the single action auto. Let's see now, do we know of any other pistols that work like that?" "From the class- Uh... Browning High Power, Beretta M51 Brigadier, Colt 1903 Pocket, Jennings .22, Lorcin .380, and, uh, Glo...; Glo...; GLOCK!" Correct again, little Johnny. SAVE THE CHILDREN! Don't let them grow up without having the opportunity to learn just as much about firearms as we did. We will never pobably get to see fireams knowledge taught in the classrooms of pubic schools, so it's up to us to educate them. Buy and old copy of "Cooper on Handguns" and put it away, then give it to a small child who is learning to read. People are trying to change long-standing firearms terminology every day, and here's a lot of incorrect, dangerous informtion out there. If we don't teach them, who will? "Experts", from Al Gore's internet?

December 1, 2002, 03:02 PM	#174
kidcoltoutlaw Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: bluefield Posts: 735	most holsters cover the trigger does anybody carry a sig with it cocked.i don't but the trigger is so heavy on the p239 that it would make you think about it for about a sec.not that i would be crazy enough to do it,thanks,keith __________________ It's not just a gun it's the symbol of freedom

December 1, 2002, 04:39 PM	#175
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	The gospel according to St. Gaston... Well it should have figured, and now we know who's been doing all the definition-mangling; Glock themselves. My point regarding the technical impossibility of DAO was a simple one, which you evidently missed. "Double-action" implies two fire-control options; "only" infers one. Sort of like a three-wheeled bicycle. Not happenin' in the real world. Oh well, this has been fun but there is little point in repeating myself endlessly. Some believe the original definition, some believe adspeak. Whichever you choose, shoot safely and enjoy your freedom. Like life, it is far too precious to waste.