Developing Loads Without a Chronograph

[lwestatbus]

I've been reloading revolver cartridges for about two months now and have successfully loaded and refined loads for .38 Spl, .38 +P, .357 Mag, .44 Spl, and .44 Mag. "Successful" is defined as all fingers, eyeballs, and firearms remain intact and have had no stuck bullets.

I would have a LONG way to travel 90 min+ to get to a range where I could set up a chronograph and I haven't purchased one. I have one range about 30 min away that allows reloads (one slightly closer does not) so my approach has been to start with low-end-of-the-table loads and creep up on the load I'd like to make the standard.

"The standard" has been loads that feel like factory loads in the appropriate caliber. After testing a load for overall feel and for not blowing up the revolver I place a reload - factory -reload - factory in the cylinder and compare the feel. If they are pretty close I make that recipe the standard for that caliber and bullet style. I also check cartridge cases for evidence of high pressures. Haven't experienced any keyholing or separation of plated bullets on the target.

Since I made up this procedure on my own and since I am very inexperienced I'd appreciate thoughts on the reasonableness of my approach and on estimating velocities from barrel length, bullet, powder, etc. To be honest, having energy that suits the cartridge's purpose and not overpowering the load is sufficient for me but if I can do better, or learn something, I'm all for it.

Thanks in advance.

Larry

[DaleA]

"Successful" is defined as all fingers, eyeballs, and firearms remain intact and have had no stuck bullets.

Sounds like my criteria also. Except that I have managed to have a stuck bullet in a .357 revolver. Note: it was OBVIOUS something was wrong when it happened. The sound was way different and all the gases escaped from the barrel/cylinder gap which was visually much different than the normal rounds.

When I started reloading chronographs were rare and expensive and I never even had a thought of using one. I just assumed the recipes in the loading manuals were giving me approximately what they said they were and left it at that.

Now days, with chronographs that don't need screens down range I'd like to see ranges have a lane set up with a chronograph. I'd also like to see a lane with reactive targets, like the old shooting galleries of the mid 20th century. I think that would be a hoot and get the range a lot more customers.

I totally understand how you'd want a chronograph for not only the velocity but the standard deviation of velocities and all the other data a chronograph could give you but for me there's enough slop/inaccuracies/deviations in handguns that, again, for me, personally, the lack of a chronograph is no big deal.

[L. Boscoe]

if you are ok with your loads, all is well. A Garmin Chronograph
is a lot of fun, and you can get pretty precise with one. they can be used in an indoor range, outdoor or whatever. In an indoor range
it will pick up a neighbor's shots if they are in the next booth.

[DaleA]

An addendum: In Minnesota I have friends and relatives in the rural areas and I occasionally get to go there to shoot and aside from obvious safety considerations we get to do what we want. If I had a chronograph there would be no problem.

Maybe you could make friends with some people in Florida that live away from the city. Some of my friendships were made with people I shoot with at Twin Cities indoor ranges in shooting leagues or just folks informally shooting.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by lwestatbus

I've been reloading revolver cartridges for about two months now and have successfully loaded and refined loads for .38 Spl, .38 +P, .357 Mag, .44 Spl, and .44 Mag. "Successful" is defined as all fingers, eyeballs, and firearms remain intact and have had no stuck bullets.

I would have a LONG way to travel 90 min+ to get to a range where I could set up a chronograph and I haven't purchased one. I have one range about 30 min away that allows reloads (one slightly closer does not) so my approach has been to start with low-end-of-the-table loads and creep up on the load I'd like to make the standard.

"The standard" has been loads that feel like factory loads in the appropriate caliber. After testing a load for overall feel and for not blowing up the revolver I place a reload - factory -reload - factory in the cylinder and compare the feel. If they are pretty close I make that recipe the standard for that caliber and bullet style. I also check cartridge cases for evidence of high pressures. Haven't experienced any keyholing or separation of plated bullets on the target.

Since I made up this procedure on my own and since I am very inexperienced I'd appreciate thoughts on the reasonableness of my approach and on estimating velocities from barrel length, bullet, powder, etc. To be honest, having energy that suits the cartridge's purpose and not overpowering the load is sufficient for me but if I can do better, or learn something, I'm all for it.

Thanks in advance.

Larry

A couple of things I've encountered that make me glad I have an old, functional Crony

• Alliant load data - no range or pressures.
• Lack of load data for cast bullets
• DW 357 revolver with excessive cylinder gap that was producing 650fps.
  

So I have to guess when using BE-86 with coated bullets. And then I get some reality running them over the chronograph. Worth it to me.

[rclark]

As long as you load within the guidelines given by loading manuals (SAAMI data) and you hit where you aim, a chronograph really isn't necessary. I did that for years... Then I got 'curious' and bought a chronograph. Where a chronograph is handy is to see how 'consistent' the load is and of course the 'actual' average velocity out of one's firearm. In revolver cartridges, I like to see < 50fps Extreme Spread (ES) over 15 shots. Consistency will start showing up on targets when you 'reach out' to targets > 25 yard distance and I like the confidence that the chronograph gives me of that. BTW, a consistent load doesn't mean an accurate load... it just means you have a way better chance of an accurate load .

BTW, I don't 'care' about what a 'factory' load feels like. I am looking for an accurate load that I enjoy shooting. For example, the .44 Magnum. I enjoy shooting the .44 if I keep the velocity around 1100fps or less. My goto load here is 10gr Unique under 240gr SWC for general purpose load. That's the beauty of reloading. I can load from 600fps to 1300+ fps as 'I' desire -- not just what the factory puts out. Or in .44 Special, I can load the Skeeter load -- not what the factory puts out.

[stagpanther]

I read on another forum a tried and true technique that a reloader used--when in doubt he let his friend shoot a new load, and if the bang wasn't followed by a scream he figured it was good to go.

Seriously, reloading (hand loading) is something of an art form and there will always be some variability introduced by different runs of both firearms and reloading components. In general, the more info you can gather, the better (and safer) your reloads will be. In "them good old days" it was chapter and verse that reloading saves money over buying factory loads. In many, perhaps most, cases that is no longer true IMO--so in the long run investing in good gear will pay dividends in getting to better loads in my experience.

But if general shooting is your goal and refined accuracy/kinetic energy data is of little to no concern to you--you definitely don't need any special gear but I would say make sure you stay within well-established parameters published by the powder manufacturers.

[GeauxTide]

Print RCLARK's post and paste it to your bench area. Read before every loading session.

I bought every manual before I could afford a chrono. The only "feel" you should use in loading is to run your fingernail across the primer when you approach book max loadings.

[jetinteriorguy]

I’d never bother with a chrono for pistols, rifles yes. I just do five round workups following load data. Typically I’ll wind up with anywhere from 7-10 loads, five rounds of each. I test them offhand, no rest since that’s how I plan to shoot them. Then I’ll pick two or three depending on accuracy and felt recoil, and whether it’s for target, plinking, or SD use. Then I load up 20 rounds each of these loads for further accuracy testing.

[Nick_C_S]

Sounds like you're doing okay. I did the same for years - created loads without a chronograph. Once I got a chronograph, I wondered how I previously got by without one.

Magnum revolver rounds are relatively easy. Make no mistake, reading primers isn't a great measure, but it's better than nothing. This has been my experience and is in no way advice: Primers will flatten; then, extractions will begin to get difficult. That's when I stopped (if not, prior) and backed down the load.

Semi-auto's are trickier. It might be best to just get your ammo to cycle and "feel" right. And of course, stick with published data.

After all is said n done, it's time to get a chronograph.

You say you can use a chrono at a range 90 minutes away. That's not too terribly far. Is there any way you can make a two-day trip out of it? Create a bunch of loads and spend a weekend (or whatever) testing them? It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing.

Before I moved out of California, my range was a mere 3 miles away. Now (Twin Falls, Idaho - yes, I moved for obvious reasons), my range is 20 miles away. Not bad. But not as good as I had it before - I was spoiled.

[Paul B.]

I started reloading ammo for rifle and handgun back in 1954. I was 16 years old. Chronograph? What in bloody blue blazes was a chronograph?
I, like everybody else just used what data was available in manuals plus a bit by and by gosh. Some of the earlier Lyman manuals I still have on hand can be a bit confusing.

When affordable chronograph became available I finally bought one and used it to work up rifle loads. I finally shot the thing to death when I decided to check out a load for an S&W .44 Spl. I had. Still haven't figured out how I hit one of the support posts for the suns shade. The post survived but the chronograph was totaled.

For years I just kept it simple in handguns. Some loads are just plain old standards used by many because they work.For a 148 gr. wadcutter 2.7 gr. Bullseye. Cheap and accurate. I get slightly better results with 3.1 gr. of W231. I do use both. 158 gr. Semi-wadcutter I like 5.0 gr. Unique. For .44 Spl. Skeeter Skelton's load of 7.5 gr. Unique it pretty much my go to load. A 230 gr. cast round nose in .45 ACP runs 5.0 gr. of Bullseye. FWIW, that's the original load for the 1911 running the FMJ hardball bullet. For .44 mag. I find Elmer's 22.0 gr. 2400 beats my S&W 629 up so I dropped down to 20.0 gr. and the gun is a lot happier. Elmer's load doesn't seem to phase my Ruger 44 mags though. Those are the loads that worked for me. Naturally YMMV. Start low and work up.
Paul B.

[georgehwbush]

Paul_B; i cliped the post on my digital electonics procron the other day. it was a 107gr. .243 round, it made a horse-shoe dent in the post but didn't seem to affect anything. now if the bullet had done more than touched the edge, that would have been a different story... but yeah "how did that happen?" does seem to be the question doesn't it.

[44 AMP]

I got a chronograph when the price point came down to about $100. What an educational, enlightening and sometimes frustrating experience.

After a few years, I packed it away and haven't seen it this century...

What it showed me was that the book velocities are about right, allowing for the differences in different guns, and a handful of fps is irrelevant for my shooting. I don't care about SD/ES numbers, it the load groups well in MY gun(s) that is what matters to me.

[noylj]

A chronograph is not needed.
Note: there are fast and slow barrels, so you can't use velocity for substitute for pressure.

[rc]

I had been loading 6 years before getting my first chronograph, a CED millenium which is a good system but more recently I splurged on lab radar. The CED had some advantages such as you don't have to worry about stepping in front of it while it's on. If your loads are accurate and you get a good practice session in you don't need a chronograph. The chronograph will let you compare loads and refine your consistency a bit but if you are using proven recipes you are fine without the chronograph.

[44 AMP]

One thing a chronograph can do is shatter long held dreams and beliefs.

Knew a guy who was deeply in love with his .270Wby mag, until he got a chronograph.....

Turned out that chrono showed him that his 270 WBY was actually within 30fps of his .270 Win rifle. Some guns are just "faster" than others.

[georgehwbush]

i second the motion about "some bores are just faster than others" i HAD a savage axis that wouldn't show any pressure signs at all until you surpassed book max velocities by nearly 100ft/s with several powders and bullet combos

it kinda spoiled me to tuning to a desired speed without reaching book max load while surpassing book max speeds at times. and that from a 22" barrel where all the testing was in 24" test guns... go figure.

that gun just didn't have enough twist for what i do so it's gone now.

i have no doubt that some pistols will do likewise

and then there is the other end of the same spectrum
my ar-10 243 with 24" tube can never reach published speeds... the pressure just gets too high first. sad.

[44 AMP]

i have no doubt that some pistols will do likewise

You'll find as much variation between different pistols as you do between rifles, if not more.

I had that experience with a chrono session a friend and I did long ago.
.357 Magnum, 125gr JHP, magnum primers and a full case of 2400, just a bit below the max listed in the Speer manual of the day.

Test guns were my friend's 6" S&W Model 19, and my 6" S&W Model 28, a 6" Desert Eagle and an 18.5" Marlin 1894 carbine.

The test gun listed in the manual was a 6" Ruger Security Six. The book said the max load did 1511fps. We expected something around 1500fps.

The first gun up was my friend's M19, with him shooting it. Somehow, he doubled the gun. Neither one of us was ever sure just how he did it, but he did fire two rounds instead of the intended single round.

Chronograph said 1620fps.

At that point we decided to discontinue shooting that load in that gun. The two fired cases would not extract with finger pressure, and we had to use a rod and small hammer to get them out. Clearly that load was unsuitable for that gun.

Next up was my Model 28, and I fired a full cylinder. HOT! but extraction was normal with just a enough resistance at first to notice. Regular finger pressure ejected all 6 normally.

Chronograph said 1670fps!

The Desert Eagle ran all 9 in the mag flawlessly. Chrono said 1720fps!!

THe Marlin carbine ran flawlessly, and chrono'd right on 2200fps! (damn!)_

4 pistols, (one from the book and the other three in our hands) SAME LOAD, had a 200fps velocity spread between them, and the model 19, the "slowest" of our guns was about 100fps faster than the book test gun, and stuck cases.
The M28 showed 50fps faster than the M19 and didn't stick cases. And the Desert Eagle with its non gapped nominally 6" barrel was 50fps faster than the M28, a full 100fps faster than the M19. All shooting the same ammo.

This much difference in speed from different firearms with the same barrel lengths is unusual, but not so uncommon as to be unheard of. Usually the speed difference is less, but not always.

[georgehwbush]

yes indeed.

anyway as per the origenal question; do you need a chrony to develop loads? no.

is it good to have a chrony during load development? yes.

but the main things are; starting low within book limits.
building up slowly within published limits.
always watching for pressure signs.
and never exceeding published limits. unless you know exactly what you are doing and are willing to have things blow up on you. ( i mean if you are a bomb builder, build bombs, just don't blow someone else up in the process)

[snoeproe]

We develop loads for our rifles. Without a chronograph.
What matters to me more is pattern accuracy. The velocity is what it is. When I get the pattern accuracy we’re looking for, we use the load.

[stagpanther]

I build most of my rifles myself--and spend a lot of money for barrels. After a while I finally got over the "just how fast can I push it" (aka bigger is better syndrome) and got to "just how well can it do what I might use it for." That's why I use a chrono--and other software and hardware devices.

[Shadow9mm]

Im sure its already been said, but dont exceed the maximum listed in your manual.

[44 AMP]

Im sure its already been said, but dont exceed the maximum listed in your manual.

Sound advice, safe advice.

Just remember that the manuals are guidelines, and YOUR gun(s) are not the test guns they used.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Sound advice, safe advice.

Just remember that the manuals are guidelines, and YOUR gun(s) are not the test guns they used.

Very true. I was simply trying to clarify, the OP started he was working up loads until the "feel" like factory loads, which is fairly vague and has the potential to put the OP over max.

[Nick_C_S]

working up loads until the(y) "feel" like factory loads

Please know I'm not piling on our OP.

But I do want to stress that recoil ("feel") and pressure are two different things. Particularly with fast burning propellants. They can be loaded to gun dismantling pressures before they feel anything like factory ammo.