Real ID Cards, a threat to our a way of life!

[BigBoreKindaGuy]

BBKG is fine with me.

[USP45usp]

Actually, this has been "in the works" for awhile now. There was a test project in the Air Force that people would be issued Federal ID cards. These cards would have all your information on it (rank, ssn, thumb print, security clearance and anything else they could think of).

These cards, not only a means of ID (visual) but also as a "smart card" which would be used to access buildings, flight line, and, your computer or any other computer that you had clearance for.

It was a means to get rid of any other ID's (like badges, etc..) and having to remember codes, passwords, etc..

They wanted to tie this card into either a print scanner or retia scanner for a backup to the card (since cards could be stolen). The machine that they had built to create the cards would encrypt the cards and if any other machine was used that wasn't military (using a crypto system like the KG's or the phones (dang, forgot the name of the phones) then it would destroy the card.

Now, in the military I expected my Rights to privacy and search/seizure, speech, etc.. to be watered down. It was part of the contract that I signed (that I obey all lawful orders, that Article 134 of the UCMJ covered everything that wasn't covered in the first 133, etc..).

Now, as a civie, with all my Rights 100% (or the percent that we think we have), it's something that gives me pause.

I'm not stupid, I know that I'm in "databases". How couldn't I be when I was military (they keep everything until the world ends), I've had background checks for clearances so I know I'm in OSI, FBI and NSA databases. I buy guns, have in many states, so I know that I'm at least in some states databases. I'm in the IRS database, I'm in the ATFE database (FFL03), I'm in the Secret Service database (I got to hear Bush I speak so everyone that was invited was checked) and not only that, most to all of the same have my fingerprints on file as well as the military having my DNA (I couldn't commit a crime even if I wanted to, I'd be busted in less then 24hours I bet).

Not only that, but the census people even know how many toilets you have, if that's not "knowing you" then what is? (if you had to fill out that long form, I never had to but a friend I was living with did).

The only problem with this picture is that they already HAVE allot of information on the law-abiding but little on the criminals that go underground and the illegals that work in the shadows. Hell, they can't even keep track of child molesters (been proven way too many times).

As long as we allow an underground to exist (illegals, criminals, black markets) then we will never be able to do anything to help solve or cut down on what is happening.

As long as American employers continue to employ illegals (who don't have a card now) this will always be here, if we continue to ban things because we don't like them (guns/drugs as examples) then there will always be black markets, if we force this "real ID" then people who have their own planes (many C-130's out there in private hands) will create an underground transit system.

As for people saying that this will prevent terrorist from driving (or illegals), BS. They will just drive without one, just like they do now and if they have a drivers license they drive without insurance so it won't matter one wit to them.

As long as people are willing to make a buck, because a buck can be made, with underground goods and services, a new piece of plastic isn't going to work.

You know what would work, maybe start with enforcement of deportation laws and if caught coming back then it's a federal crime punishable up to 15 years club fed. Maybe guarding our borders would be a start... ya think?

As for the home grown criminals, maybe take away these stupid "retreat" laws when it comes to violent crime. Let us police our selves and our own community. I know it sounds harsh but it worked before in the "wild west" and they had lower murder rates compared to now even taking in population at the time and now.

When the anti's scream about the wild west, I would love to see that again, crime was low, criminals were few and when the criminals were caught, if it was a hanging crime, they got a trail and then led start to the gallows if found quilty, I can deal with that.

I firmly believe that to get ahead in the future and get our crime and such under control, maybe we should go back to the past.

Wayne

[70-101]

If Madison Avenue has its way, we will be cutting our National ID cards out of the back of cereal boxes in a few years.

[BreacherUp!]

This has got to be one of funniest threads I've read. If anything, everyone's sense of humor is at an all time high (for once in a blue moon)

[Trip20]

Enforcing current laws = great idea

But they weren't working even when they were enforced. The borders need to be tightened up BIG TIME.

I don't give a rats rear end about the National ID card as stated earlier. Nothing to hide here. A "new piece of plastic" will at least give our LEO's something to run to find out if the people are here legally... think about it.. the plastic can be fake, but it's gotta hit something in the database. Hell yes they'll work in this regard.

[Wraith]

This issue is not about what YOU have to hide. It's about how much you trust the government.

... and when RFID chips become the standard ID will you simply say, "I've got nothing to hide"?

I am not a paranoid person. However... there is only one person I trust.

[F350Lawman]

I don't think this is likely to lead to globalization in anyway.

However, for all the guys who worry about a global ID, don't we sort of have one anyway? For 99% of the countries you might visit, you need a passport. Likewise people from those 99% of nations, need their "global ID" or passport to visit us.

There is no need for any U.S. national ID to have global implications or be shared with others. If you want to travel, a passport would still be the means.

P.S. I am glad to see that I am not the only guy who's so boring that I am not worried about big brother tailing me.

[Terry Twit]

Some of you guys really miss the point. On purpose, I suspect. Is this just another way of expressing the old cop saw "If you didn't do anything wrong, why am I talkin to you?"

Hell, why not just let the police in your house and look around..it's for the chilldreeennnn..

[bbrins]

As for people saying that this will prevent terrorist from driving (or illegals), BS. They will just drive without one, just like they do now and if they have a drivers license they drive without insurance so it won't matter one wit to them.

Exactly.

Instead of the "Real I.D." we should close our borders completely, except for LEGAL immigrants, and then deport all of the illegals we can round up that are currently here. I have respect for people that want to come here legally and are productive members of society.

If a terrorist really needs an I.D. they will find some way to counterfeit one or steal one and alter it.

A couple of people have said something along the lines of, "I don't have anything to hide, so why should I worry?". Well I'm sure that this has been said a million times before but if you have nothing to hide, they have nothing to look for.

[BigBoreKindaGuy]

To F350Lawman:

Its not that a National ID will explicitly lead the way to globalization...it is as I stated previously just a another small step of many toward a larger modification of behavior that will plug into a host of others things that will happen as globalization continues to evolve.

Who knows how long from a requiring of a National ID will it be before someone then takes the ID to the next step of associating credits and debits to the ID card which paves the way for a cashless society under a global economy. And if anyone here doesn't think a global economy is possible in the next decade or two then think again given the continued momentum that globalization under a one-world order is being pushed.

Little by little all the "assumed" unrelated pieces that by themselves seem meaningless or superfluous are going to collectively work toward define an infrastructure for a single global order. The political leaders and financial heavies certainly know and understand that as a whole the masses resist change especially when it has to do with a one-world order.

However if anything has been proven by history it is that you can impose change upon the masses through slow imperceivable modifications of those things that seem so innocent when each is considered alone. When woven together over time you are suddenly caught up in the very thing you were opposed to or resisted.

By that time your daily subsistence has been implicitly coerced into being so closely associated to that behavioral change that you cannot completely detach yourself from that modification without sustaining a fairly heavy financial loss, job loss or even loss of life.

For Christian beleiving folks there-in lies the trojan horse that paves the way for the final choice each will face.....either follow the laws and regulations of "wise" (ha-ha) men or choose to retain the God-given right to live a life by and under the laws of God.

[Trip20]

I'm not missing the point, let alone on purpose. Don't assert something so, well, stupid. The point, if you can call it that, is utterly ridiculous.

We've gone from globalization, to 666 and the end of the world, to all sort of other BS conspiracy theories.

You can't back up an arguement with off the wall "what if's".

Ok fine, you don't like National ID cards.. great... now explain to me why with out the freaking scare tactic, BS, and cartoon network crap. Maybe you'll change my mind - who knows. I'll listen to realistic arguments.

But convincing me I'm going to have a barcode tattood on my ass, and I won't be able to purchase food with out rubbing my rear end against the register ------- all because of a form of ID ain't gonna cut it.

[Trip20]

"Those" who are out to "get us"..... were us..... are us. Has everyone forgotten this?

Those being the crew that is secretly organizing the new world order... assuming we're talking about all the nations governments who secretly meet and drum up new ideas on how to brain wash us all into shaving our heads and becoming one global nation, under the same laws, economy, and rule.

[BigBoreKindaGuy]

Trip20...sorry to say but I think you do miss the point. The National ID's are what they are...instruments that bottom line end up changing the normal course of societal behavior and again chip away at your right to choose for yourself.

Its no different than gun-control and I bet you are staunch against that. You don't want to be told to give up your firearms anymore than I wish to be forced to carry a National ID. Do you honestly think you are going to be allowed to choose to NOT get a National ID? The fact is that a National ID will not prevent illegals from gaining entry anymore than removing guns from the general population will keep them out of the hands of perps. Wrong doers always find a way to get around such BS.

Finally the fact that we can discuss National ID's, globalization, 666 and whatever all in one breadth is based on the fact that the sum of the parts can equal to an entirely different whole that is bad...and to not be always vigilent about ALL things and assume that life just will go on unimpacted by the sum of the individual parts is quite foolish and quite careless. That's exactly what the world did when a certain individual authored the book Mein Kamph. All because people were not vigilant as to what was really happening as this solitary man wrote Mein Kamph from his prison cell. Who would have ever thought that writing a single book such as this was the seed of impetus behind the solitary individual Adolf Hitler who was responsible for bringing about WWII and the loss to 10's of millions of lives ?

[shootinstudent]

Bigbore,

Let's try this: What information will be available about you after the new ID, that wasn't available before the ID rolled around?

And um....where does 666 enter this equation???

[BigBoreKindaGuy]

shootin-student - its not a matter of what information would be available that already isn't already available elsewhere....its the possible next kinds of information that the card can be used to track.

I don't know about you but I never authorized nor voted in any national referendum that I am aware of to allow any information to be collected about me. This whole ID mess is an invasion of my right to privacy.

If anyone wishes to give that up and become a number or a cog then be my guest. That to me is not freedom..it is a thinly disguised form of slavery. And if anyone here doesn't already feel the daily contnuous pressure of the "chokers" being placed on us then you have already lost your will to live free and don't even know it.

As for 666 it is the mark of the beast as told in the New Testament. It is a mark that will be associated to the head or hand in some manner that must be taken in order to buy or sell ANYTHING. If you accept the mark then you have chosen to follow Satan (free-will remover). If you choose to not accept the mark you have aligned yourself with God (free-will preserver). Those who refuse to take the mark will be hunted down, put into prison and eventually killed by those who chose the mark. A National ID is a blantant step toward fulfilling that scripture because as I said what will come to be addiotnally associated to the National ID once it is firmly rooted into the fabric of our society? The line is never drawn as to where the limit is for these types of things (ID's) and always evolve into having a life of their own that builds up too much momentum to stop even when all early indications are the ID as instruments for holding private information are being abused.

[payne]

Ok, i'll try to enter the 666 part into the equation for ya. 666 is the "Mark of the Beast" It's believed by those of us that believe in the prophacies of Revelation in the Bible. Basically all will be forced to accept the mark of the beast. To many intrepreters (i can't spell, please forgive) this in its modern form would be a universal identifyer (possiably this card) to "The Ruler" "The Gov't" "The Anti-Christ" letting it be known your not one of the people allowed to participate in the food buying, services or whatever. 666 is the mark of the Anti-Christ or some would say The Beast. So this tied along with many many other world events that are coming to pass are fulfilling the prophacies of the Book of Revelation.

I know to those that don't know the prophicies, our dislike of this ID seems foolish or paranoid, but it's true to us and from what we read and see around us daily it only increases our confidence in our belief.

Sorry if i offend anyone, but I'm only trying to explain why Bigbore, myself, and a few others are really creeped out about this. It's not cause we have anything to hide either. Thank you.

[shootinstudent]

Payne,

I appreciate your calm presentation of your beliefs. Thank you for helping me to understand.


But I have a question for you and BigBore: Where's the number 666 on the new ID's, or on any state ID, for that matter?

[Sir William]

Anybody here use a library card? The FBI has full access to your library internet usage, research, full knowledge of what authors, genre, how many videos you check out, how many times you use the library, your overdue books/fines, what you print out on library PCs, websites visited, your address, home phone and your spouse and children/dependants history. All public, private, univerity or other lending libraries provide this information as part of HS. ATM cards, debit cards, credit cards and you are almost certain to be on video at retail stores and government facilities. Have you ever been caught by photoradar while speeding? The NID is a good idea. The application will be problematic. What about dual state residents? It might be interesting to see what happens with those who hold multiple state CCWs. I think it would be nice to allow a LEO to swipe your NID and find out you are a good citizen. I think it would be greater to allow LEOs at a DUI check to swipe a registered sex offenders NID and know that. Colours will be different so a citizen and non-citizen can be IDd. If a LEO swipes a NID and finds a illegal who has overstayed their visa, good. I am in favour of the NID.

[XavierBreath]

Payne,
I, too, respect your feelings on the issue, and it is no small issue for one who believes Biblical prophecy. Consider though, that the same thing was said about Social Security cards. The same thing was said about tattoos on concentration camp victims.

On the flip side, something as easily counterfieted as an ID card will simply be duplicated by any terrorist. A year after the card's introduction, there will be fakes. No matter what hologram or magnetic strip you attach, if a LEO is not able to read the strip immediately, a counterfiet card will suffice. Dependence on an ID card to establish legitimacy rather than counting on a LEO's common sense and intuition is simply a dumbing down of our police force.

That being said, I think I'll take several of 'em!

[jburtonpdx]

A few years back the state I was living in at the time wanted to add some other use to the drivers license. I dont remember exactly what that change was.

I do remember that the method they wanted to pay for the use was to up the cost of the drivers license by $14 per renewal. I wrote my state rep and said that I personally was not opposed to the added use of the DL, but that I was opposed to paying more for my DL.

He actually called me back to discuss. He asked for suggestions on paying for the use. I recomended dropping some other program to free up the money. I then suggested that if they dont have the money to pay for this maybe it should not be done. I said that while I dont oppose the use I do not support it either, and dont want to pay for it out of my pocket. He actually voted against.

My point is this - Where is the money to pay for this federal oversight of the drivers license system going to come from? It is another layer of government that will have to be paid for.

[jesse2005]

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Welcome to 1984...

The National ID Card is NOT about Identification or fighting terrorism. The National ID Card is about creating a DATABASE on EVERYONE and TRACKING them EVERYWHERE. What info will it include? Well, not even that line has been drawn yet, which means it could be anything.

Medical Info, Income, Travel Patterns, Criminal History, Spending Patterns, Bank Account Balances, Guns Owned, at this point, everything is fair game. This is a corporation's wet dream.

I don't know about you, but I don't trust the government to handle this database without screwing it up.

Check this link out for a laugh.

http://georgetoft.com/presentations/...izza_order.swf

[Bog]

Hum.

We've got a whole thing going on here in the Uk with ID cards. These little so-and-sos are to have one's vital statistics from DNA to shoe-size on their ickle chips, and there's going to be a really big database.

They're to fight the terrorists, you know.

Okiedoke. So, let's take a close-to-home case of a girl being murdered in my town this weekend. A horrible crime, which makes me wish the Uck had the death penalty. But if the LEOs said "Cool, we've got spoor on the body, we'll run the DNA. Oooh, lookie - we've got a match! That's our boy." they'd be wrong - because current DNA testing technology is only about 99 percent accurate. The Uck has 60-odd million people, at a conservative estimate. That's an estimated 300,000 false positives to troll through, assuming a male attacker - yeah, fine, you can narrow things down, but a DNA record is not the magic bullet that CSI and other shows would have us beleive.

So... DNA. Yes, every person's DNA is absolutely unique. No, we currently don't have a rapid method for working up a person's complete genome, and the quicker the test, the less accurate it is. Natural human complacency, however, will have people treating it as The Definitive Truth, not an investigative tool as it actually is.

Moving on to the RFID side of things. How lovely! You swan through life, with your ickle smartcard magically opening doors for you, your PC wakes up and logs you in just by you sitting down in front of it, and your bank greets you with a cheery, welcoming "beep!" as you walk up to the ATM.

Uhm. Heh. Guess what? It's a breeze to trigger those RFID tags. You can buy a scanner for them from any decent 'tronics supplier. So hoovering up IDs would be a bulk concern. You know the spam in your inbox? A lot of that is trolling for identity theft, the #1 Crime of the Information Age.

Let's take a look at the Big Gubment Database now. Doubtless written by the lowest bidder. "Sorry, we can't give you medical treatment yet, the database is down." That's possibly an extreme outlook, but my Gh0d in heaven, they put these things out to tender, and the person giving the biggest back-hander gets the gig. Not always, but often. *shudder*

So in this case, it's not the existence of the database that bugs me, it's the competence of the monkeys running it. It's the bored data-entry clerk who miskeys an entry.

You know why you need a virus-scanner? It's because there are lots and lots of idiots who think it's a big jape to screw with computers and break them. And that database is going to be The Prize, the Ultimate Target for these informational sociopaths. It'll be the biggest target for ID Theives, for the sick jerks who write viruses, for scammers, for everyone with an Empathy Bypass and a bit of computing knowledge.

And, to reiterate, I'm expected to trust the Gubment to secure it properly? HA! Let me just point you to that work of fiction known as "The Train Timetable" to illustrate my point.

*pant, pant, pant*

Anyhoooo that's my take on ID cards. Part of it.

[9mmsnoopy]

if it keeps the illegals from getting d.l's and other benifits, then whats the problem? bush already said he would sign this bill. ya'll voted for him right? i thought he was the cure for all of the countrys ill's right?

[BigBoreKindaGuy]

shooting-student - The actual meaning of how the literal number 666 is a debate...Some feel it is an actual literal number - some say the number 666 is a symbolic representation of a specific person or perhaps system. That is why the New Testament states that lucky is the person who has the wisdom to be able to identify what the 666 means.

I persoanlly believe the 666 is either a person or system imposed that will directly interfere with your ability to gain bodily subsistence so that you are forced into making a choice to in essence live or die.

As Christ said woe to the man who loves his earthly live rather than his spritual live. I can defintely see how that fits into all this because if you love your earthly life so much that you don't want to die (unnaturally) the mark of the beast will be very tempting for those people to accept.

If you hate the earthly existence and love and TRUST (Faith) God then you will have no problem defying the laws of men and rejecting the mark (ID?). Of course you will be imprisoned and eventually put to death by those accepting or pushing the mark of the Beast.

Someone else mentioned that teh same was said for Social Security cards and some other things. As I stated before circumstantuial conditioning where over a large period of time the WILL of the people is changed by the sum of teh small innocent parts. Small innocent almost imperceivable changes over periods of time that keep coercing the masses into doing this or that and all tied to our daily ability to be gainfully employed or obtain food, shelter, clothes etc etc etc.

[jonathon]

Unfortunatly, it passed.

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/05/05/11...id=172&tid=219

So, if this goes through unchallenged legally, we'll be in a survailence nation within 3 years. The next step will be obvious if you think on it; guns will be tied to their owners using this system. Pretty much the same backdoor registration as the "ballistic fingerprint". I'm apalled that people are so oblivious to that... RealID creates a new, even more powerful beaurcracy then ever. RealID basically says that we, as citizens of the United States do not know whats best for ourselves.

The question comes down to:

Do you trust the government enough with your saftey?

If you answer yes, what the hell are you doing carrying a gun, or even owning one.