Student Arrested After Cutting Food With Knife

[grey sky]

Sending E-mails to the administrator may seem reasonable but I fear it will fall on deaf ears/blind eyes. I suspect people who create and enforce these types of regulations are beyond reach. These elites are convinced that YOU need a keeper and they are the ones for the job. After all they have been to college and are keepers of the knowlege, with the full force of the government to enforce there will.
These things can be challenged in court in theory, the reality is who can afford to make the challenge?

[jimpeel]

There are three hundred comments at the story page and most of them ask if the authorities are insane.

Steak knife = weapon.

Sharp pencil or pen = not a weapon.

One can be used to eat.

The other can be used to write.

Both can be used to thrust and stab.

Neither is a weapon when used for its intended purpose.

Video: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player...News&132&&&exp Sorry but you will have to sit through the 15 second commercial before the report.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,7777198.story

[TTTTglock]

I believe that this same topic is being discussed currently here

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=272577

[jimpeel]

Seems more like a legal issue to me and where is the firearm that GD requires for posting?

[JuanCarlos]

No, really.

ZT policies have their place. This isn't one of them. She brought the knife to school for its intended purpose. Take her aside, give her a stern talking to, maybe a suspension if you want to go the ZT route. Make sure she knows not to do it again, maybe make sure other kids know not to do it again. I can understand all that (whether or not I agree). But felony charges?

Come on.

I can understand a school's desire to keep knives out of school. I can understand that they might fear other students with more nefarious intentions might use such excuses as a cover to bring them. But at some point you have to balance all of this against the harm done by these policies...in this case, it's way off.

Sure, knives are dangerous. But as the OP suggested, I've actually seen a kid stabbed in the face with a pen in school. It's not pretty, either. I've seen a kid beaten nearly to death with no weapons whatsoever. Taking zero-tolerance policies to the extreme, and involving the criminal justice system in a case like this, doesn't even begin to pay off in safety what it risks in getting good kids caught in the ringer.

I wish I could have been a bit more coherent, but it's late. Whatever.

[jimpeel]

The body of the e-mail:

Dear Sirs and Madams,

A snippet of a published article I wrote on zero-tolerance entitled "The Death of Goodness in America".

In the drunken logic of the modern bureaucrat the equality of treatment for all far outweighs the quality or fairness of that treatment. All things must be treated on an equal basis regardless of right or wrong. The problem is that when you treat all things equally you must always err on the side of evil over goodness. All things are viewed in their worst light. Of course this allows the bureaucrat of the moment to shirk any duty to fairness and relieves them of any, and all, responsibility for any, and all, decisions at any, and all, levels; i.e. the law is the law and it is out of my hands. Neat, concise, to the point.

Zero-tolerance is the primary example of this wrongheaded thinking. Everything is treated as equally bad and everyone is treated as equally evil. Under the guiding principles of zero-tolerance everything is at its worst. Every knife is a weapon. Every drug is a restricted drug. Every action contrary to the wishes of the authorities is evil.

When we treat everyone as a criminal, a ne’er-do-well, a druggie, a purveyor; we also create hostile, disrespectful, angry human beings that will at some point live up to those expectations. We instill in the young that there is no goodness.

The time has come for the people of this nation to realize that zero-tolerance, and like laws, are destructive to our nation and our system of laws and government. The people of this nation must realize that it is time to do away with these destructive laws and return to the common sense approach to the laws that built this nation. Only through the destruction of these laws can we as a nation return to a system that seeks out and reveres goodness.


Sincerely,



Jim Peel
Longmont, CO

[cold dead hands]

Her uncle, Kenneth Thomas, said the child was distraught by the arrest.

"I don't think it was that fair," Thomas said. "We do understand there needs to be measures taken to make sure people don't come to school with weapons in light of what has happened at schools over the past years. But she's a really good kid. She was crying her eyes out."

Anybody remember when I said...

What cop actually was a big enough @#$%head to put the cuffs on a 10 year old girl who was most likely crying and scared because she wanted a better way to eat her crappy school lunch. And people wonder why I have no respect for LEO in general.

...who wants to bet this following comment of mine is going to be very true in the future...

I would be willing to be that kid is going to have some serious issues with LEO, school authorities and the system in general from now on

I hope that girl's family sue everyone for at least causing her trauma that will likely take years to be undone.

For all you heartless types, you may want to remember that this a little girl, not a hardened criminal. She deserves to to treated well and was abused the system.

I hope they all burn in the afterlife.

[jimpeel]

I wrote this piece several years ago and have posted it on TFL on several occasions.

Here is one of them:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...20&postcount=6

[JuanCarlos]

I wrote this piece several years ago and have posted it on TFL on several occasions.

Well put, though I'm not in full agreement. There are some limited instances in which I think zero-tolerance policies may not be entirely horrible. For instance, one example that played out at my high school was students bringing firearms on campus.

Now, first we have to start with the assumption that a ban on students bringing firearms to a high school is a good thing; I'm going to state this as a "given" even if some disagree, because obviously it's impossible to really discuss the rest if this isn't accepted.

Anyway, my school had very clear rules on students and firearms. Bring one, never come back. Of course, like most schools they had to take it about six steps too far, so this rule covered replicas, squirt guns, all kinds of other non-firearms. But regardless, the simple and, in my opinion, sensible rule remained...bring a gun, get expelled. Period.

Why do I think this was sensible? Every year the principal would come to every class and spend time explaining the policy. It was sent home. Basically every possible effort was made to ensure that every last student had it made very clear to them this policy...bring a gun on campus, get expelled. Okay. So what happens? Two of our more popular football players bring a gun, get expelled. Didn't graduate, I believe they lost scholarships, all kinds of consequences.

Their excuse? They were going shooting with their coach after school, so they didn't figure it was a big deal. Man, what? They were caught because they actually pulled the gun (a shotgun, IIRC) out of one kid's car, and were taking it over to the other kid's car because they wanted to take that guys car out to where they were shooting. Just walked it across the parking lot like it was nothing.

Now, on the one hand this suggests what your post was getting at...there really was no malice involved. I get that. On the other, it also suggests to me that these kids quite honestly could not fathom that the rules actually applied to them. That, or they didn't care enough to get clarification on said rules (were parking lots covered...on a side note it was pretty obviously that they were, but whatever) beforehand...because, again, the rules probably didn't apply to them anyway. I see people making threads here all the time looking for clarification on all kinds of crazy things that they could probably just get away with anyway...but again, they know that the rules apply to them and that if they are caught and it is illegal they'll be hosed.

These kids, not so much.

And, unlike the girl with the steak knife in the OP, they had options. They didn't need the shotgun in class, or in the cafeteria. There's little reason they couldn't simply have parked the car with the gun in it off-campus...there was actually street parking nearby, I know this because for a semester I had no parking sticker and used it. They could have parked in any number of nearby areas, and having two kids with cars a little co-ordination could have opened up their options considerably (one kid parks, the other drives him the rest of the way). They could have left it at home, and gotten it after school...my school's radius of coverage wasn't large, you're looking at a ten minute drive to pretty much any student's house (also note that this was a urban/suburban area...not rural). Or, lastly, they could simply have left the darn thing in the trunk (moved it off-campus) and nobody would have been the wiser.

But again, either these kids figured the rules didn't apply to them, or they simply didn't feel like checking if the rules applied in this case...which in my opinion probably stemmed from a cavalier attitude towards the rules in general, likely because they figured they generally didn't apply to them. Yes, I realize that to some extent it seems like I just didn't like these guys. But really, that's not it. I don't generally like anybody who acts as though the rules don't apply to them; sure, I've broken a rule or two in my day as well...but I don't act all flabbergasted if I actually have to face the consequences for it (and I have).

My point (if there is one...again, it's late) is that too often when zero-tolerance policies aren't used the punishment doled out has less to do with what was done, and what the circumstances were, and the "goodness" factor you talked about and more to do with who was involved. If expulsion was an option, rather than mandatory, then if an otherwise good kid like myself were in the same situation (brought a gun to school to go shooting with a buddy after school, walked it across the parking lot) I'd probably be facing it as a very real possibility (though obviously not definite). I was, for the most part, a "nobody" at my school. Didn't get in trouble, but aside from my friends and a few of my teachers unlikely to be missed. A couple of star football players with NCAA scholarships coming to them, and the head coach arguing in their favor? They might not even be suspended if it would keep them from playing that Friday.

So yeah, I guess I believe there are some cases where zero-tolerance policies might be warranted. I guess for me it just comes down to where the line is drawn...obviously, I think it's drawn long before the incident in the OP. Also, I think honestly I don't favor the idea much in the "real" criminal justice system...expulsion is pretty severe, obviously, but nothing compared to mandatory minimum sentences in prison.

This is turning into (or rather, is) a wall of text, so I'll cut it there.

[rbrgs]

We're supposed to have a gov't of laws, not men.
I'd rather have a uniform policy applied to everyone; no discretion = less corruption.
Of course, I don't think it should be illegal unless it hurts someone...bring a knife to school, no problem; hurt someone in school (with or without a weapon) and to world falls on you.

[VRMN8R]

I skipped page 2 here on the discussion so this may have been posted. Anyone go to the Sunrise school website? On the front page it says
"Do What's Right, Do Your Best, Treat Others the Way You Want to Be Treated."
I guess the teachers want to be treated as felons now? What a joke!!!!!!!!!!

[kayakersteve]

This whole thing is anti-evolutionary. We as humans, have supposedly come to rule the world because we have the ability to adapt and reason. We took a rock millins of years ago and turned it into a sharp object. Now we are going backwards and are taking sharp objects and making them dull!!!

I am only in my mid 40's, but when I wnet to school in the late 70's and early 80's, we carried buck knives in holsters on our belts. If I were in school now, in protest, I would put a spork in my holster just for fun!

This little girl probably would have been sent for a psych evaulation if she forgot the knife that day and the teacher had spotted her knawing at the piece of meat anyway.

[Al Norris]

Duplicate thread.

Merging with the original and moving to L&P... Hang on!

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by hogdogs

The Tourist...
No dang security guard of a mall or store is going to detain me! They will end up going to the dentist!

At the time I posted my story and the infamous "felony sandwich," most of the replies and several PM's felt the same way.

And trust me, I've felt the bracelets. No rent-a-cop is going to abridge my rights to look like a brave uppity schmuck. I wasn't just going to beat these two, I was going to embarrass them. The real police would have found them pantsless, in the mall fountain.

But that's me, an adult. Consider this:

Originally Posted by kayakersteve

psych evaulation...the teacher had spotted her.

The student was a minor, and for good or evil, the teacher was the authority. And as much as I have enjoyed shoving it to authority, (since the age of 5--it's a good story) you simply cannot place the burden of defending our enumerated rights on the back of a scared girl.

There are times to fight. A mall ninja pretending to be a cop is one thing (Hey, Columbo, lose thirty pounds and take the test again, squirrel) but a school environment just isn't one of those venues.

Having said that, we adults should make sure that everyone under the rank of sergeant in that nut-house gets so many reprimands jammed into their personnel file that they look like paper-shredders. The girl should be counseled; if it was my girl, I would comfort her, make sure she knows good from bad, and the idiot/townie thing and then I would buy her a new knife.

Again, we have opinions and expectations under law. This was a little girl.

[CrazyIvan007]

this story is just stupid. I would get folks to march at the superintendants office and demand a demotion of all involved, principle mostly.