5000 rifles turned in in Maryland? - Page 3

WGB38 · October 17, 2002, 09:20 PM

cybersnyder wrote:

"So, yeah I support the right to own firearms. I'm not a big fan of concealed carry mostly because of where I live. In some areas, concealed carry works"

No disrespect sir but what part of the 2nd Amendment says shall not be abridged except by local? This type of fractured yeah I beleive in the 2nd Amendment but fill in the blank is okay thinking is what will loose our rights for us and turn people like me into criminals. I am a 12 year law enforcement veteran and currently work for the fed as a cop. The fact you think ccw would allow the wrong types of people to carry smacks of the elitism that many gun control proponets have.

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 09:30 PM

WGB38,

Truthfully, for me, I'm not convinced that "bear" means concealed carry. That's just my view.

I'm not trying to be an elitist by any means. I'm just trying to think of someone that I know that would carry. I really can't think of anyone. Now, I think about that kid that cut me off on the beltway, I gave him the finger and he started throwing stuff at me. What if he decided to carry that day?

I'm not saying that there should be no concealed carry. I'm just saying that I'm happy there isn't any concealed carry in my part of the US.

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 09:31 PM

WGB38,

You didn't call me a gun control proponent, did you?? Now those are fighting words!

;-)

Zander · October 17, 2002, 09:31 PM

"ATF agents have visited numerous gun shops in the Washington area to review sales records and federal 4473 forms that list buyer information for every firearms sale. In some instances, the investigators made copies of documents, said gun shop owners and employees." -- Washington Times, 17 Oct 02, final edition

Hmmm...that ought to take care of the gun-banning liars who insist that registration isn't inextricably linked to confiscation. Assuming, of course, that the general media will follow-up on such blatantly illegal actions by the BATboys.

Who's called Ashcroft [on firm record as opposing such un-Constitutional violations]?

Anyone disbelieving that things could go bad so quickly is referred to the actions in the Land of Oz...banning of certain firearms took place in the space of a little more than one month.

Buckle your seatbelts...if any firearm that you own is "on paper", you're at risk, and substantial risk at that.

RKCheung · October 17, 2002, 09:40 PM

Quote:

What if he decided to carry that day?

Well, since he had to pass a background check to get the CCW that means he isn't a criminal. Also probably had to take a class discussing the ramifications of use of deadly force. Thus, without the briefest thought, he probably would flick you off too and drive away.

dischord · October 17, 2002, 09:41 PM

Quote:

What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit.

and

I'm not saying that there should be no concealed carry. I'm just saying that I'm happy there isn't any concealed carry in my part of the US.

and

What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit.

Maryland has concealed carry permits.

Quote:

In PA, you could let your car doors unlocked and fully expect that nothing would happen.

Knowing when to use "let" and "leave" is very difficult for non-native English speakers, but you're doing a pretty good job overall, cybersnyder.

How's the weather in Europe?

Quote:

I think it's more responsible of a firearm owner to support the investigation than to waste time in the investigation by pulling legal maneuvers. The firearms should be returned within a week.

And the prepositions usually trip them up too.

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 09:46 PM

Sorry. I'm from the US of A, but I won't claim to be a grammar expert. I really preferred math and science.

I did spend 3 years in Germany while in the Army. Maybe that's where I picked up my poor English.

dischord · October 17, 2002, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Sorry. I'm from the US of A, but I won't claim to be a grammar expert. I really preferred math and science.

Then being from suburban Maryland, you'll have no problem telling me what each of the following refers to:

Boegmanns

270

Temple

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 09:57 PM

I've never heard of Boegmanns, I usually shop at Safeway or Giant. They are the only two choices in Howard County with the exception of the ocassional Food Lion or Weis.

270, of course refers to the road feeding into the beltway that becomes a parking lot every morning because people want to have their cheap housing in Fred-neck and work in Rockville / Northern Virginia. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just couldn't stand the commute.

Temple. Again, not sure. If you're talking about sports rivalries, I thought Duke was the real rival for the Terps. Maybe you're referring to the Mormon temple along the beltway.

Come on, the Fred-neck reference should be enough. Plus, there's no way that I'm voting for Kathleen even though I'm a Democrat. Only a registered democrat, not a practicing one. I'm registering as an independent after this election.

dsteinman · October 17, 2002, 10:27 PM

calling gun clubs in Maryland and asking for their rosters

I have read in the local paper here in Northern Virginia that local ranges are being asked to provide copies of their sign-in logs, if they have logs..

GeorgeBagley · October 17, 2002, 10:41 PM

CyberSnyder said "What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit. The reason is that the people that would "carry" here are not the people you would want to have firearms. That said, there are times when I hit an ATM late at night and would like to have my Glock under my coat."

So you suddenly are the one who gets to decide who does and doesn't get to have a pistol? What makes you so special? Here's a news flash for you, Mr Superior, the people you need to worry about DON'T HAVE CHL'S. CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS. It's the folks who obey the laws that need CHL's.

With friends like you in the NRA, no wonder our rights are being incrementalismed away...

George,
Not a member of the NRA in Texas

SW9M · October 17, 2002, 10:43 PM

I’m not a lawyer by any stretch of the word, but it seems to me if they did stumble upon the shooter’s gun the evidence could be rendered inadmissible in court due to the nature of these seizures.

I see no difference than when a local school started doing drug tests for anyone to participate in extra curricular activities.

Would be the same if some one that was white man with dark hair had raped someone and the police took DNA samples of all males in the area that fit that description. That kind of dragnet would be deplorable.

DNA is no different than ballistic evidence. The NRA had better jump on this one.

I also will be contacting the NRA about this. I will also call my congress critter. Let's see what he and she has to say about it.

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 10:57 PM

GeorgeBagley: I don't get to decide anything. I just said that I'm happy with the lack of concealed carry here. I think your gun laws are pretty safe in Texas. ;-)

dsteinman: I think it makes since to get the rosters. Personally, I would take the list of persons that own one of the guns in question, and throw out the guys/gals that have been in a local gun club for more than a year. Focus on the people that have the gun for no apparent reason. And before Texas jumps on me, around here there aren't many places to shoot rifles unless you belong to a gun club. There may be more more places in Virginia, I don't know.

**tyme** · October 17, 2002, 10:59 PM

(cs) Truthfully, for me, I'm not convinced that "bear" means concealed carry. That's just my view.

What exactly do you think it means, then? Don't say what it doesn't mean without giving an alternative. Does it mean the people have a right to magically transform firearms into bears? Maybe it means people have a right to have a tolerance for firearms? Or that they have a right to construct and produce firearms?

None of those is feasible given the writings of those involved in the formation of the United States at the time the amendment was written. Visit http://www.guncite.com

dischord · October 17, 2002, 11:04 PM

Maryland has concealed carry.

SW9M · October 17, 2002, 11:16 PM

The next time that there is a murder in your area and the CSI people find some blood and a witness describes someone that kinda looks like you, will you be first in line for defacto DNA testing?

Quote:

I think your gun laws are pretty safe in Texas.

If you will do a little history research of laws across the US you will find that what happens in one part of the country is followed by the rest of the country. So yes this bothers me a great deal.

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 11:24 PM

Maryland technically has concealed carry, but it's impossible to get a permit. I'm thinking more like concealed carry in PA. You just go to the courthouse, fill out a form, they do a background check and you leave with a CCP. (I know that's a run-on sentence.)

Check packing.org for the requirements. It seems to be a reputable site.

NY Patriot · October 17, 2002, 11:27 PM

Every gun owner in the MD area should read & follow the advice outlined in this article... What to do When the BATF Comes- A-Callin'

Read it, live it, and pass this info along!!!

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 11:28 PM

SW9M: I guess I'm basing my opinion of Texas on one trip there in '89. We met a Texas Ranger. He really looked like a cowboy, unless he was just dressed up for show.

Are there any counties in Texas that are restrictive? It seems like any kind of anti-gun legislation in Texas would be the end of your term or reason for impeachment.

westex · October 17, 2002, 11:29 PM

If this stuff is true, I'm glad it's happening in MD not around my area. I wouldn't get any sleep tonight which all the noise going on and smoke in the air.

leuthen · October 17, 2002, 11:37 PM

2nd Amendment definition. American Govt text book for High school students, published 1907.

'what is intended on the last clause of the amendment is a general right of the people to keep arms and to become proficient in their use, in order to that if the occasion should demand it they might become effective members of a popular army to defend themselves against invasion, internal disturbance (read criminals, my add), or unlawful oppression, and to make unneccessary such a standing army as might be dangerous to the liberties and the democartic spirit of the nation.'

How times change. Don't think this version is being taught today. That's why I collect old history books....

maxinquaye · October 18, 2002, 12:18 AM

Hey guys maybe we should keep the attitude down with cyber...he's not raising his voice so why are you? I think he's been pretty open minded.

Cyber- I guess the main thing is you say you can't think of anyone offhand who would carry a gun. I think you would be surprised. Unless you know the person *very* well, you can't really judge. In our political climate, people are usually pretty quiet about gun ownership. Here in CA, I'm consistantly amazed by the people who turn out to be gun owners when all appearances would point otherwise. You would be furthermore suprised how many people would rush to get permits. You yourself have said you would like to be able to pack on occasion. Other are probably no different...

The kid who showed so little character on the freeway would probably not have the character to accept responsibility for his personal well-being by going to the hassle of obtaining a permit. There is a logic here that people just dont see right away sometimes. The point is that CCW carriers are *certified* good guys. Check the stats - crime rates for those licensed to carry are practically non-existant. They subdue or prevent countless crimes on a DAILY basis. Have you read "More Guns, Less Crime"? You owe it to yourself to check it out and educate yourself on the matter.

2A issues are broad and people will always disagree, even those on the same side. I personally would feel pretty silly to counter someone's well-read, logical arguments with subjective conjuncture. Perhaps the fact they they *are* well read is their reason for disagreeing with you...they may have held the same belief before they picked up a book.

jdthaddeus · October 18, 2002, 12:31 AM

" I think about that kid that cut me off on the beltway, I gave him the finger and he started throwing stuff at me. What if he decided to carry that day?"

"I don't get to decide anything. I just said that I'm happy with the lack of concealed carry here. I think your gun laws are pretty safe in Texas"

Realize that the 'lack of CCW' does NOT stop criminals from carrying guns. That is a very important point to ponder.
If the guy that cut you off was the type of person that would have shot you, do you really think a law against him carrying a gun would have stopped him?

The only people that are stopped from carrying guns in your area are law abiding citizens, and a law abiding citizen would not shoot you over a traffic dispute. Hundreds of thousands of people carry guns every day and you would scarce find an incident of a law abiding person murdering an innocent person over a traffic dispute.

Moved2Texas · October 18, 2002, 12:37 AM

cybersnyder

Now, I think about that kid that cut me off on the beltway, I gave him the finger and he started throwing stuff at me. What if he decided to carry that day?

Two possibilities:
1. He would have been more polite. He would not have thrown "stuff" at you because if he picked a fight with you he gives up his right self defense. Conscious he was carrying, he would have avoided starting or provoking a conflict.

2.He would have murdered you in front of witnesses in other cars who could tell the police his license plate number.

Now, which do you think?

Selfdfenz · October 18, 2002, 01:04 AM

This is all depressing.

However......
On another point, I wonder is this tells the outside observer something about what the LE up there knows and is pursuing.

If the sniper was a terrorist and they (LE) know it, would they have any reason to go around confiscating rifles they know are not involved. Natuarly if they know the shooter is a terrorist from a foreign country he will not be at one of these homes and they will not find him or his weapon this way.

OTOH if they know now it definitekly is NOT a foreign terrorist but some kind of nut case this approach might make some sense.

I think the fact that they are doing this indicates they are not looking for some kind of foreign terrorist but rather a domestic nut.

Lets face it. This kind of operation must be consuming a ton of time and manpower they could not well afford to use knowing that going in they were doomed to failure (ie its a foreigner).

I hope the people that have given their rifles to these people will have them returned.

S-

October 17, 2002, 10:43 PM	#62
SW9M Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2001 Location: Free Plains of Texas Posts: 446	I’m not a lawyer by any stretch of the word, but it seems to me if they did stumble upon the shooter’s gun the evidence could be rendered inadmissible in court due to the nature of these seizures. I see no difference than when a local school started doing drug tests for anyone to participate in extra curricular activities. Would be the same if some one that was white man with dark hair had raped someone and the police took DNA samples of all males in the area that fit that description. That kind of dragnet would be deplorable. DNA is no different than ballistic evidence. The NRA had better jump on this one. I also will be contacting the NRA about this. I will also call my congress critter. Let's see what he and she has to say about it. __________________ Tyrants prefer: an unarmed and gagged peasant. Malo mori quam foedari. Malon Labe.

October 17, 2002, 10:59 PM	#64
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 3,355	(cs) Truthfully, for me, I'm not convinced that "bear" means concealed carry. That's just my view. What exactly do you think it means, then? Don't say what it doesn't mean without giving an alternative. Does it mean the people have a right to magically transform firearms into bears? Maybe it means people have a right to have a tolerance for firearms? Or that they have a right to construct and produce firearms? None of those is feasible given the writings of those involved in the formation of the United States at the time the amendment was written. Visit http://www.guncite.com __________________ “The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)

October 17, 2002, 11:04 PM	#65
dischord Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 945	Maryland has concealed carry. __________________ Another member of the TFL diaspora

October 18, 2002, 01:04 AM	#75
Selfdfenz Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2001 Location: The Gas Tax State Posts: 949	This is all depressing. However...... On another point, I wonder is this tells the outside observer something about what the LE up there knows and is pursuing. If the sniper was a terrorist and they (LE) know it, would they have any reason to go around confiscating rifles they know are not involved. Natuarly if they know the shooter is a terrorist from a foreign country he will not be at one of these homes and they will not find him or his weapon this way. OTOH if they know now it definitekly is NOT a foreign terrorist but some kind of nut case this approach might make some sense. I think the fact that they are doing this indicates they are not looking for some kind of foreign terrorist but rather a domestic nut. Lets face it. This kind of operation must be consuming a ton of time and manpower they could not well afford to use knowing that going in they were doomed to failure (ie its a foreigner). I hope the people that have given their rifles to these people will have them returned. S- __________________ Selfdfenz

October 17, 2002, 09:20 PM	#51
WGB38 Member Join Date: February 21, 2000 Location: Birmingham Metro Area Posts: 47	cybersnyder wrote: "So, yeah I support the right to own firearms. I'm not a big fan of concealed carry mostly because of where I live. In some areas, concealed carry works" No disrespect sir but what part of the 2nd Amendment says shall not be abridged except by local? This type of fractured yeah I beleive in the 2nd Amendment but fill in the blank is okay thinking is what will loose our rights for us and turn people like me into criminals. I am a 12 year law enforcement veteran and currently work for the fed as a cop. The fact you think ccw would allow the wrong types of people to carry smacks of the elitism that many gun control proponets have.

October 17, 2002, 09:30 PM	#52
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	WGB38, Truthfully, for me, I'm not convinced that "bear" means concealed carry. That's just my view. I'm not trying to be an elitist by any means. I'm just trying to think of someone that I know that would carry. I really can't think of anyone. Now, I think about that kid that cut me off on the beltway, I gave him the finger and he started throwing stuff at me. What if he decided to carry that day? I'm not saying that there should be no concealed carry. I'm just saying that I'm happy there isn't any concealed carry in my part of the US.

October 17, 2002, 09:31 PM	#53
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	WGB38, You didn't call me a gun control proponent, did you?? Now those are fighting words! ;-)

October 17, 2002, 09:31 PM	#54
Zander Junior member Join Date: December 11, 2000 Location: Middle and East Tennessee, USA Posts: 2,059	"ATF agents have visited numerous gun shops in the Washington area to review sales records and federal 4473 forms that list buyer information for every firearms sale. In some instances, the investigators made copies of documents, said gun shop owners and employees." -- Washington Times, 17 Oct 02, final edition Hmmm...that ought to take care of the gun-banning liars who insist that registration isn't inextricably linked to confiscation. Assuming, of course, that the general media will follow-up on such blatantly illegal actions by the BATboys. Who's called Ashcroft [on firm record as opposing such un-Constitutional violations]? Anyone disbelieving that things could go bad so quickly is referred to the actions in the Land of Oz...banning of certain firearms took place in the space of a little more than one month. Buckle your seatbelts...if any firearm that you own is "on paper", you're at risk, and substantial risk at that.

October 17, 2002, 09:46 PM	#57
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	Sorry. I'm from the US of A, but I won't claim to be a grammar expert. I really preferred math and science. I did spend 3 years in Germany while in the Army. Maybe that's where I picked up my poor English.

October 17, 2002, 09:57 PM	#59
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	I've never heard of Boegmanns, I usually shop at Safeway or Giant. They are the only two choices in Howard County with the exception of the ocassional Food Lion or Weis. 270, of course refers to the road feeding into the beltway that becomes a parking lot every morning because people want to have their cheap housing in Fred-neck and work in Rockville / Northern Virginia. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just couldn't stand the commute. Temple. Again, not sure. If you're talking about sports rivalries, I thought Duke was the real rival for the Terps. Maybe you're referring to the Mormon temple along the beltway. Come on, the Fred-neck reference should be enough. Plus, there's no way that I'm voting for Kathleen even though I'm a Democrat. Only a registered democrat, not a practicing one. I'm registering as an independent after this election.

October 17, 2002, 10:27 PM	#60
dsteinman Member Join Date: August 12, 2002 Location: Sterling, Va. Posts: 36	calling gun clubs in Maryland and asking for their rosters I have read in the local paper here in Northern Virginia that local ranges are being asked to provide copies of their sign-in logs, if they have logs..

October 17, 2002, 10:41 PM	#61
GeorgeBagley Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1	CyberSnyder said "What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit. The reason is that the people that would "carry" here are not the people you would want to have firearms. That said, there are times when I hit an ATM late at night and would like to have my Glock under my coat." So you suddenly are the one who gets to decide who does and doesn't get to have a pistol? What makes you so special? Here's a news flash for you, Mr Superior, the people you need to worry about DON'T HAVE CHL'S. CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS. It's the folks who obey the laws that need CHL's. With friends like you in the NRA, no wonder our rights are being incrementalismed away... George, Not a member of the NRA in Texas

October 17, 2002, 10:57 PM	#63
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	GeorgeBagley: I don't get to decide anything. I just said that I'm happy with the lack of concealed carry here. I think your gun laws are pretty safe in Texas. ;-) dsteinman: I think it makes since to get the rosters. Personally, I would take the list of persons that own one of the guns in question, and throw out the guys/gals that have been in a local gun club for more than a year. Focus on the people that have the gun for no apparent reason. And before Texas jumps on me, around here there aren't many places to shoot rifles unless you belong to a gun club. There may be more more places in Virginia, I don't know.

October 17, 2002, 11:24 PM	#67
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	Maryland technically has concealed carry, but it's impossible to get a permit. I'm thinking more like concealed carry in PA. You just go to the courthouse, fill out a form, they do a background check and you leave with a CCP. (I know that's a run-on sentence.) Check packing.org for the requirements. It seems to be a reputable site.

October 17, 2002, 11:27 PM	#68
NY Patriot Member Join Date: October 27, 2001 Location: NY state Posts: 87	Every gun owner in the MD area should read & follow the advice outlined in this article... What to do When the BATF Comes- A-Callin' Read it, live it, and pass this info along!!!

October 17, 2002, 11:28 PM	#69
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	SW9M: I guess I'm basing my opinion of Texas on one trip there in '89. We met a Texas Ranger. He really looked like a cowboy, unless he was just dressed up for show. Are there any counties in Texas that are restrictive? It seems like any kind of anti-gun legislation in Texas would be the end of your term or reason for impeachment.

October 17, 2002, 11:29 PM	#70
westex Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 1999 Location: E of El Paso & W of Ft. Worth Posts: 602	If this stuff is true, I'm glad it's happening in MD not around my area. I wouldn't get any sleep tonight which all the noise going on and smoke in the air.

October 17, 2002, 11:37 PM	#71
leuthen Member Join Date: October 5, 2002 Location: Left coast class3 state Posts: 53	2nd Amendment definition. American Govt text book for High school students, published 1907. 'what is intended on the last clause of the amendment is a general right of the people to keep arms and to become proficient in their use, in order to that if the occasion should demand it they might become effective members of a popular army to defend themselves against invasion, internal disturbance (read criminals, my add), or unlawful oppression, and to make unneccessary such a standing army as might be dangerous to the liberties and the democartic spirit of the nation.' How times change. Don't think this version is being taught today. That's why I collect old history books....

October 18, 2002, 12:18 AM	#72
maxinquaye Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2000 Posts: 546	Hey guys maybe we should keep the attitude down with cyber...he's not raising his voice so why are you? I think he's been pretty open minded. Cyber- I guess the main thing is you say you can't think of anyone offhand who would carry a gun. I think you would be surprised. Unless you know the person very well, you can't really judge. In our political climate, people are usually pretty quiet about gun ownership. Here in CA, I'm consistantly amazed by the people who turn out to be gun owners when all appearances would point otherwise. You would be furthermore suprised how many people would rush to get permits. You yourself have said you would like to be able to pack on occasion. Other are probably no different... The kid who showed so little character on the freeway would probably not have the character to accept responsibility for his personal well-being by going to the hassle of obtaining a permit. There is a logic here that people just dont see right away sometimes. The point is that CCW carriers are certified good guys. Check the stats - crime rates for those licensed to carry are practically non-existant. They subdue or prevent countless crimes on a DAILY basis. Have you read "More Guns, Less Crime"? You owe it to yourself to check it out and educate yourself on the matter. 2A issues are broad and people will always disagree, even those on the same side. I personally would feel pretty silly to counter someone's well-read, logical arguments with subjective conjuncture. Perhaps the fact they they are well read is their reason for disagreeing with you...they may have held the same belief before they picked up a book.

October 18, 2002, 12:31 AM	#73
jdthaddeus Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Az Posts: 470	" I think about that kid that cut me off on the beltway, I gave him the finger and he started throwing stuff at me. What if he decided to carry that day?" "I don't get to decide anything. I just said that I'm happy with the lack of concealed carry here. I think your gun laws are pretty safe in Texas" Realize that the 'lack of CCW' does NOT stop criminals from carrying guns. That is a very important point to ponder. If the guy that cut you off was the type of person that would have shot you, do you really think a law against him carrying a gun would have stopped him? The only people that are stopped from carrying guns in your area are law abiding citizens, and a law abiding citizen would not shoot you over a traffic dispute. Hundreds of thousands of people carry guns every day and you would scarce find an incident of a law abiding person murdering an innocent person over a traffic dispute.

October 18, 2002, 12:37 AM	#74
Moved2Texas Member Join Date: November 30, 2001 Posts: 36	cybersnyder Now, I think about that kid that cut me off on the beltway, I gave him the finger and he started throwing stuff at me. What if he decided to carry that day? Two possibilities: 1. He would have been more polite. He would not have thrown "stuff" at you because if he picked a fight with you he gives up his right self defense. Conscious he was carrying, he would have avoided starting or provoking a conflict. 2.He would have murdered you in front of witnesses in other cars who could tell the police his license plate number. Now, which do you think?