Range report: 360 PD self-defense loads...

[brentfoto]

from Socrates:

That said, with 125's the recoil numbers look like they might approach a shootable situation, though the trigger is truly horrible, both very heavy, very long gritty, and, it doesn't seem to get any better.

...

I'm real close to 5000 dry fires on snap caps. I oil the gun, but, it's still super stiff DA, and,it's not getting much better, being gritty, and hard to pull. I've also been doing this a LOT, to develop my trigger finger for this sort of pull, and, it actually hurts I've done it so much.

My plan with this gun is an action job, and, it has to get the trigger pull down at least to half the pressure now required.

Socrates--

Smoothness of pull is more important than lightness.

A smooth trigger will seem lighter, though it may still be in actuality, heavy. Perhaps there is gunk inside the frame from all the oiling you've done. Try a flush and lube very lightly with a drop on the hammer stud, rebound slide, and trigger stud.

Tie the trigger back just before the break, and let it remain that way for a night, or more. Don't do anything to harm the finish, like I did, when cutting the ties (with a knife). Use a scissors to cut or ties designed to hold wires, or whatever you can find, but don't use those plastic ties that lock in place that you cannot open and must cut.

Try smoothing the rebound slide bottom and the side facing the frame. Suggest that you also change your rebound slide spring to a Wolff 14 lb. reduced power spring. Leave the mainspring stock if used for carry or SD. If used for range, go down to a 8 lb. Wolff reduced power mainspring.

Try the Miculek Hold on a J-frame so that when you dry-fire the muzzle is stationary throughout the pull (better for accuracy).

(I'm not a gunsmith but these are a few things that I have picked up along the way...)

[Socrates]

Thanks for the suggestions. Using an eraser and plastic pen to keep the gun near the break point. Hoping for some spring fatigue. Have a note into wolff asking about the best spring setup for a 'target' 360PD.

I was dry firing last night, and, instead of my finger getting stronger, and, the pull becoming easier, it seems the action is so unnatural it's causing damage, or inflamation, to my trigger finger, in comparision to my left hand.

Simply put, so far, this gun is a TOTAL disaster for some one with large hands, even with custom grips.

It's extremely expensive, comes with really garbage internal parts, no replacements that are forged that I know of, and spring tension that while it may keep the S&W lawyers happy, are truly one of the worst combinations of ergometrics and exteme trigger pull for anyone with large hands.

Something the range officer missed: I tried to pull the trigger slightly, and grab the hammer to shoot the gun single action. One time, I nearly put one up at mortar angle, out across the range.

Since putting on the larger grips, the cut trigger finger from the trigger guard is no longer a problem, but, it's still sharp. Along with custom fitting the boot grips, I may well have a dehorn done on that, if I don't do it myself.

Later this week, I'm going to look at the light 357 tactical loads, since they recoil around 13 ft lbs, but, they come back real fast. I may try buffalbore's 158 .38 special regular loads, since the Plus P version is really a mini 357 load, and recoils like one.

As for smoothness, I'm used to both smooth, light, and short, with a fast reset. The more I study this, the more I think a custom 1911 is more for me, in a Colt CCO, or commander, then this gun. On the otherhand, it is an excellent 38 Special Plus P gun, once I get the trigger down DA to about 5 pounds, and, find a load that recoils in the 10 ft lbs of energy range...

With that combination, it will make a very nice pocket gun for trash take out.

[brentfoto]

I thought that yours contained an external hammer. I guess not.
If it does, then you could merely cock it?

Anyway, the whole thing sounds a bit 'depressing'; hope that things improve for you. In light of your current intended purpose (I may be incorrectly assuming you want to use it for fun and not carry) please do consider taking my suggestions about changing to a 8# Wolff mainspring and 14# or even lighter rebound slide spring, among the other things. I don't know if you'll ever be able to get a 360PD down to 5 lbs. DA pull, though.

You can always sell it later, if you desire.

Why not use it for self-defense purposes? That is what they're designed for...

I'm only going to shoot my 442 a lot because I want to be accurate for self-defense, but enjoy shooting my K and L frames much more-the K mod 65-5 for range with 38's and the L frame 681 with .357 for secondary HD and for fun.

Cheers...

p.s. I can't visualize how you are using plastic pen and an eraser to keep the trigger back-could you explain that ?

[Socrates]

The external hammer was bobbed for carry, and the larger grips put on it for shooting, then sanded down, so they fit my hands, and don't print.

I find it odd that people recommend guns with heavy triggers that are hard to shoot for defense. I find myself agreeing with John, that accuracy, shot placement, is the most important thing, and, with a 12 pound super long garbage trigger, I really am lucky to hit anything with this gun.

I can shoot it fairly well if I can cock the hammer back, but, having bobbed it for ccw, the only way to do that is by pulling the trigger, then catching it with your finger. Problem is, the trigger is so stiff, that's hard to do consistently. Also, it's sort of false advertizing to say this gun is a .357, since if shot with .357, who can shoot it?

I'm no stranger to heavy recoiling guns, but, the technique required to shoot this thing is a death grip, and, the recoil numbers are such that 99.99999% of the people in the world aren't going to be able to shoot it as a .357, at least not and hit anything.

As for the holding the trigger: The eraser is a Santa eraser you put on the end of a pencil, oversized. I cut it so the eraser has sort of a U shaped on each side, to fit the sides of the trigger guard. Then, took a sharpie and slide it in between one side of the eraser and the other, until the trigger is just about to fire the gun on snap caps.

I've got a beautiful cocobolo set of boot grips for the gun, but, haven't shot it with them. I need to have them sanded down a bit, so they don't bulge so much, and fitted, then I'll have a true pocket .38, plus P, with 125 grain bullets. Even at that, I can't think of many more powerful 12 oz pocket guns.
Sometimes you don't get what you want, you get what you need...

[Travis Beck]

In my opinion, the ultralight (less than one pound) revolvers are a failed experiment. The cost of the nasty recoil and the flinch it is all too likely to create exceed the benefits of the additonal power gained. I've also read too many reviews about the accuracy of the barrel and sleeve being much worse than the norm for S&W revolvers.

I prefer the standard pressure .38 Special Nyclad in my pocket revolvers because the recoil is very manageable and the soft hollowpoint expands well even at moderate velocity.

You mentioned earlier in the thread wanting a 3" revolver. The Ruger .327 Magnum may be what you're looking for. According to American Rifleman, the round approaches .357 Magnum levels with about two thirds of the recoil. It's a little heavy at 28 oz., but it may the combination you are looking for.

[salvadore]

I can sympathie with you, I purchased a 396 Mountain Lite @ 18 oz. Shooting a box of my 180 lazer cast with a enough titegroup for a velocity of apx. 1000 fps can cause much pain and possible tissue and bone damage. I put some round butt duty grips from a M-66 I had laying around, to reduce footprint and carry in a mernickle behind the back holster. Covert and it doesn't try and pull my pants down. In waders I can still put in a vest pocket due to reduced weight. Have you considered a steel J frame without grips that are defeating the whole purpose of the firearm.

[brentfoto]

You guys are missing the point. The Airlites are engineering marvels as they can shoot .357 out of a gun weighing as little as 10-12 oz. without blowing up in your face.

What does one expect with such a powerful round through such a light platform? Someone on another forum who has problems with his joints, hands, etc., and is about sixty-five years old is shooting Speer GDHPSB .357 and managing it, so try that round for plenty of stopping power yet less recoil, apparently.

I think that any carry gun weighing more than 1 lb. empty is a PITA to carry (at least in the pocket).

28 oz. Ruger .327 Mag would not even be considered for pocket carry by me. That's why I sold my model 49 Bodyguard-my pocket sagged, and it was just too heavy.

Then I purchased a compromise pocket gun - the S&W 442 Airweight. Very happy with it in a Mika Pocket Holster (round cut) or a DeSantis SuperFly. I must say, though, that UM boot grip and Hogue Bantams are not enough grip for shooting +P, or even standard moderate loads. That is why I'm on this 'quest' to get a larger rubber grip. Looks like the Monogrips (above, Socrates?) may end up on my 442, or the Pachmayrs Compac or Compac Pro.

IMHO, nothing comes close to pocket carry.

[salvadore]

I agree Brent, but a pocket holster does not a pocket gun make. A twelve ounce revolver needs no holster or Jordon size grips. Shoot it with small grips and loads that do not cause too much bodily damage, ( to the shooter).

[brentfoto]

Salvadore-

Appreciate your comments, but I really like the Hogue Monogrip, and, unless I find the Compac or Compac Pro Pachmayrs to be better suited considering recoil/concealability, I'll stay with the Hogues. And I ALWAYS carry a revolver in a holster in my pocket. Will not futz around with 'bare' carry in the front pocket. No thanks.

I've already sold my factory stock UM boot grips (pending receipt of funds), and the Hogue Bantams that I have are going up for sale - so if anyone is interested you can have the J frame Hogue Bantam grips for $12.00 plus S&H charge of $3.00, equals $15.00

I bought them new last week. They have been placed on the gun only two times. They are now 'used'-the seams are no longer flush because they have been placed and removed on the gun two times. Return w/in 3 days if not satisfied for refund of $12.00. Buyer pays all shipping, but I don't think there'll be a problem and they should mount without a hitch.

I would indeed keep these grips but when 'push comes to shove' I don't really like any type of boot grip for this gun. If you shoot light loads with them you should not have too much of a problem with felt recoil. I don't shoot light loads.

The Bantams fit models 30 32 33 36 37 38 39 51 60 342 442 649 650 and the Centennial. PLEASE note this is a SMALL grip, and weighs less than the UM stock boot grip.

Empty weight of my 442 with the Bantams is only ~14.3 oz., so they're about 0.8 oz. lighter than the UM boot grips! And the empty weight with the Monogrips is 15.0 oz., about the same as with the UM stock boot grips!

I really like the Monogrips! (BTW, the backstrap is covered)

[Socrates]

brentfoto: Yes, the grip above is a nylon monogrip, sanded down to fit my hand, and, conceal in holster position. Makes the gun a hair too big for pocket carry, for me, since it sticks out of the pocket of most of my pants, also in Mika's holsters, both square and rounded.

I find either the baby Beretta, in 22 short, or 22lr, and .25 and this airweight the limit for throw in your pocket, take out the trash.

I do have pleated pants, and, I think the smaller grips will conceal considerably better, and, I'll just have to put up with the lighter bullets, or slower velocities. I will do a range report soon, since I'm going to be on break, and g

[brentfoto]

I wonder if the nylon monogrips are the way to go-perhaps the rubber ones might be better. All of these things add up...to either a pleasurable shooting experience or somewhat less...

[Socrates]

The rubber monogrip takes the gun out of any chance of pocket carry, unless I start into overalls.

I think with small wood grips, and something like this:
American Eagle 130 grain FMJ
950 fps
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps.
or:
BB Tactical Short Barrel, Low Flash, Reduced Recoil 357 Magnum
125gr. Speer Unicore (Gold Dot) bullet @ 1,109 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
Recoil Energy of 13 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 34 fps.
I would have a powerful pocket gun, and I'd be able to shoot it, or at least find out if I could shoot it well enough to want to carry it at all.

Tonight I just threw the pocket Beretta into a Mika holster, and, it was fine, and even a bit smaller and lighter, and a bit more wallet like. It's only a 22, but, that's better then a sharp stick...

[Socrates]

Ordered from Wolfe last night:
Use J frame kit stock # 17125.
"SHOOTER'S PAK - Reduced Power
This pak contains 1 each 8 pound reduced power hammer spring and 1 each 13, 14 and 15 pound reduced power rebound springs allowing adjustment for lighter and smoother trigger and hammer action. Note: Models 317, 650, 651 have a 12 Lb. factory hammer spring.
Stock No. 17125.....$ 9.00 eaClick button to purchase"

[brentfoto]

It's spelled Wolff.

Anyway, I trust that you know how to remove and reinstall the coiled mainspring and rebound slide springs.

If you don't, at least with the rebound spring, you're in for an 'interesting' time, or have a gunsmith do it all, though laymen can do it too (with the benefit of the Miculek DVD, 'Trigger Job', which makes it easier). Just be careful when you do it with the rebound slide spring-I nearly ruined my rebound slide stud-bent it from force in removing and installing different springs on numerous occasions -and had to disclose it in the sale of my model 49, which no doubt resulted in the lower price that I received for it.

There should be a difference in pull weight and smoothness, but not so noticeable as a K, L, or N frame.

Cheers.

[Socrates]

Next week, when the springs come in, the gun gets worked on. Trip to the gunsmith is planned may shoot it tomorrow or Sunday at the long range, outside, that doesn't charge 20 bucks an hour...

[Travis Beck]

I had a set of reduced power Wolff springs installed in one of my Taurus revolvers. The gun would not reliably ignite hard primers with the reduced power springs.

Once the springs are installed, I suggest that you exhaustively test the gun with your carry ammo before you begin relying upon it.

[Socrates]

That's why I'm having my gunsmith do it, and fit the grips. He won't do anything that stops the gun from working...

[45reloader]

Heavy recoil, last shot came out of time

[Socrates]

Possible I had too loose a grip, thinking it was going to be a 'low recoil' personal defense round.

[Socrates]

Tomorrow is the next step. Changing grips, and, I'll try and see how it works with these grips:


These grips make it a true throw in with the pocket holster gun. They also don't stick out as far in Kangaroo carry. See if I can hit anything...
Brentfoto: you can see the Santa eraser, and the sharpie, holding the trigger very close to firing position. When I look at this, the problem is getting my mitts around a J frame has never really worked. Didn't in the 63, didn't and we'll see tomorrow.

[brentfoto]

Socrates-
The rubber monogrip takes the gun out of any chance of pocket carry, unless I start into overalls.

I don't quite understand the problem. I carry a 442 with the Monogrips in a Mika Pocket Holster or a DeSantis Nemesis in my front pocket without concern as to printing or revealing the butt.

The chances of ever having to pull the gun are remote, considering all the times it will be in your pocket, and I don't have any problem retrieving the gun, especially when using the Mika.

My selection of rubber grips has narrowed down to the Monogrip or the Pachmayr Compac or Pachmayr Compac Professionals.

The Pachmayr Compac Professionals are great for concealability; I just placed them on the gun the other day but have not shot with them yet. There's likely to be an issue with controllability and pain of felt recoil as the grips are really better for people with shorter fingers, and women, the backstrap is exposed, etc.

As soon as I receive the Compacs I'll take those along with the Compac Professionals to the range for +P shooting. If not happy with either, then the Monogrip will be the selection.

[Socrates]

I found the grip, monogrip, was about a 1/2 inch too long and sticks out enough that someone might be able to see the butt of the gun, but unlikely figure out what it was. This with the Hogue. The boot grip is a little fatter, but shorter, and doesn't
have any chance of being spotted from behind, at least I don't think so. The wood and nylon don't grab my clothes like the old stock rubber grips did. When thunderwear or pocket carrying, I'm concerned with the grip grabbing my clothes, and printing. Let me know what your experience is, since I haven't tried the mud n' snows on this gun from pach.

[brentfoto]

I've completely ruled out rubber boot grips-the stock UM's and the Hogue Bantams. And I don't see how wooden boot grips would be of benefit re recoil-they're probably worse. Furthermore, the stock UM bootgrip is considerably smaller than the Monogrip. So why did I rule it out (and sell the UM and likely to sell the Bantams)?

Because I'll be practicing with the same grips as carry at all times, and with +P. They just don't work for me-too small and they hurt the hand! Great for carry but not good for practice! And practice one must do...a lot!

What do you mean 'sticks out too much'? Maybe you're wearing pants/shorts with too short pockets.

I'm hoping the Pachmayr Compacs will be a sufficient compromise (re recoil and concealability) between the Hogue rubber Monogrips (which I agree are, in my own words-a 'tad' large) and the various rubber boot grips out there. I still find the Monogrips 'work' fine in a Mika or Nemesis.

Do you have the Mika pocket holster?

Have you heard stories about people being 'busted' or 'made' because the butt of their J-frame Monogrip allegedly gave them away?

In fact, I'm going to do a short poll on it. I'm serious!

[Socrates]

Hi
I'm fairly large, and, I feel that the grip, the monogrip, is too close to the edge of my pocket. That's just me. Here, in the PKR, it would be very bad to be made.

The Bootgrip also seems to conceal better in thunderwear.

I think the bootgrip could be a bit thinner on the side that presses against the body, and, I might have the grip custom tailored for that.

Buffalobores 158's kick about the same as the Fiocchi Magnum 148s, and one is going 1040, the other 1131 fps.
Have to go shooting to see if I can shoot either with the boot grips.

I'm hoping the smooth wood will help, letting the gun ride up in recoil, but, the death grip I have to have on the gun to pull the DA trigger might preclude that.

The suggestion to keep the gun in position to just about fire is helping with lowering the spring tension.

Thank you

S

[brentfoto]

I should think the boot grip in a pocket holster would be the 'ticket' for you. Different strokes though...

I'm not giving legal advice but if you're busted for CCW in CA and you don't have a permit (99.999% of the population) then it can only be charged, I believe -as a misdemeanor, if the gun is registered under your name. If not, it might be a 'wobbler'-misdemeanor or felony, but not sure.