Range report: 360 PD self-defense loads...

[Socrates]

Problem is, IIRC, the first would be the end of a career I have, and, I think probation on a misdeameanor requires you can not have possession of any of your guns.

After reading a bit of 12025, it has some very intresting parts:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/wa...ction=retrieve

In particular the part about you can carry if you have a reasonable fear for your life. One could argue that's everyday I go to work...

[STS3_SSN705]

Originally Posted by Socrates

the technique required to shoot this thing is a death grip, and, the recoil numbers are such that 99.99999% of the people in the world aren't going to be able to shoot it as a .357, at least not and hit anything.

I'm sorry to read that you are having so much trouble getting comfortable with your 360. Is the 340M&P that different from the 360PD, or is it because the gun doesn't fit you well? Because I've been getting quite comfortable with my 340M&P. I have average size hands, and I am of average build. I am using the stock grips. On my last range trip (3-20-08) I shot 50 rds of 158gr Blazer .357, and 75 rds of .38spl with very good results. It was the only gun I brought that day, because I was just looking to do some practicing with my new snubbie. My groups were good, and I was able to put quick follow up shots on target with increasing accuracy. I will definately not describe the recoil as pleasant, but it was certainly tolerable. I didn't feel the need to give it a deathgrip, but I did hold on firmly. I didn't have any bruising or lasting pains afterwards. Interestingly, I didn't notice any less recoil with the target ammo than I did with the Speer Short Barrel SD ammo. I'm gonna try some of the other SD rounds next trip. I'll see if I can inflict some punishment on that hand...

[Socrates]

I think you maybe using ammo that is shootable in the gun.

However, if you go for full house stuff, your recoil can go up by as much as 150%, and double the recoil speed, at least.

Once you start getting into the 44-454 magnum recoil area, the grip size, and fit to your hand, becomes super critical.
Also, the speed of the recoil of the little gun is about twice what a heavier gun would be.

[Socrates]

Went to the range today. IT WAS CLOSED.
report soon....

[brentfoto]

I believe these new Pachmayr Compac Grips will be the best rubber grips overall for the J-frame-I believe carry grip should also be practice grip. Can't wait to shoot with these new grips.

Initial impression-appears to have good cushioning of the hand, three finger grip (I really like that!), relatively soft rubber compared to the Compac Professionals, smaller than the Hogue Monogrips-more attractive and also easier to conceal than the Monogrips.

The backstrap is covered.

[Socrates]

Let me know how they conceal. They look very nice, and an excellent choice. How much are they?

[brentfoto]

They conceal fine. But don't expect them to conceal like the UM boot or Hogue Bantams.

And they are smaller than the Monogrips, much more comfortable in the hand, and the rubber seems somewhat soft-similar to the Decelerators (which are way too large for pocket carry).

But these grips are something else. They're similar to the 'Grippers' that I had on my M49, but seem softer and I think are smaller.

They are somewhat thicker than the Monogrips, which is good-it's a 'warm, fuzzy feeling'. These grips fit my hand perfectly.

Overall, I believe they're the best I've found in a rubber concealable grip that should be able to handle +P recoil well enough in my 442. These should help you with your 360PD, or whatever darn thing that you have...

I got them along with a holster for a Beretta from a guy on ebay who has terrific feedback.

Brand spanking new Pachmayr Compacs for the J-frame were about $26.00 +shipping of $7.50. He sent them to me from N.Y. via Priority Mail on Monday-I received today-two days later. I'm near San Diego, California. He combines shipping for only $.50 for each additional item. So I bought two items, got two, paid $8.00 for shipping Priority and received in two days.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN:IT&ih=003

Update

My 442 weighs 15.1 oz. with the UM stock boot grips and 17.3 oz. with the Compacs. IOW, comparing weight of these Compac grips to the weight of the stock UM boot grips adds 2.2 oz. to the gun. I believe it's well worth the additional weight to have the Compacs as a platform. What a difference in grip hold and controllability-but only shooting with them will confirm.

[Socrates]

Hi
I've thought of putting lead filled grips on the 360PD just to get weight up to shoot magnums out of it.

I'm resigned to keeping the boot grips on it, finding a load I can shoot out of it, even if it's a reduced recoil, short barrel, 125 grain Speer HP, or, even worse, 125 grain .38 special, or Plus P. If worse comes to worse, I'll load it with ball, that I can shoot easily, and use Blazer FMJ 130 grain at 950 fps.

In my air marshall holster, I'm pretty sure I can easily fit an officer's sized gun, or better, CCO, and be comfortable, since it will weigh more, but have a slimmer profile.

I'll keep the little gun for pocket carry, unless of course, you find these grips work for you, and, you can fire 357 out of the gun, with little problem.

[brentfoto]

Seems like the purpose for buying the Airlite is decidedly defeated if you must add lead-filled grips to it.

Perhaps the lightest recoil SD .357 load might be best for you.

As an aside, my 442 only shoots .38 spec. (+P).

[Socrates]

www.buffalobore.com
has a couple loads that give reasonable recoil and good ballistics: 38 specials,

Loads 20E, 125 grain @ 940 fps, gives recoil of 9 ft lbs @ 27 fps. Expands to .5" penetration about 12"
Doable

Load 20C 158 grain bullet, @ 925 gives less expansion, more penetration 16", and 12 ft lbs @ 32 fps. Expands to .41"

Not great, but shootable.

[brentfoto]

I'm sorry-not sure what you're looking for? Are you firm staying with the .357 cartridge or are you willing to carry .38 +P in that Airlite?

Suggest that you downgrade from the .357 round or go with one, such as the Speer .357 SB, that I've heard might be somewhat manageable in an Airlite.

The BB numbers are impressive indeed, more so than you'll admit, IMHO.

I've already settled on my SD round for the .38 spec. It's Speer Gold Dot SB.

[Socrates]

Hi
The only loads I've found so far that are really shootable are the 38 special loads. Even the 1040 fps 158 grain buffalobore
.38 Special Plus P recoils even with the Fioochi 357, with 148 grains at a chronographed IIRC 1130 fps. That's what I've got in the gun, and speed loader, the 158 Plus P.

Here's a 2" snubby testing of various plus P's, including Buffalobores:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html

I'll probably settle on a 125 grain bullet, in .38 special plus p, or, .38 special, just for recoil, and being able to shoot the gun.

The loads from buffalobore, listed below, are standard 38 specials.

The gun is the perfect throw in the pocket, holster or not, and forget gun, provided I could hit something with it.

Have to get to the range, and find out how the boot grips work...

[brentfoto]

The gun is the perfect throw in the pocket, holster or not, and forget gun...

Well, without a holster, it gets down deeper in the pocket.

I'm finding that with those thicker butt Pachmayr Compacs there is a bit of concern concealing in a pocket holster. If I put a kerchief or something over that butt, it's less likely to be spotted.

The only concern that I have carrying that or the Monogrip in a pocket holster is of someone behind me in a line, or whatever, being able to look into my left pocket and see a black thing near the lower edge of said pocket. They might not be able to discern it, though. A lot depends on the pants and cut of the pocket along with depth of the pocket. A kerchief can interfere with the draw, though.

I find the draw is easier with the Mika than with the Nemesis or SuperFly.

[brentfoto]

There really is not that much of a difference in name brand JHP within any given caliber, and, of course, shot placement is the most important factor. I'd rather have shot placement to COM or head with a lesser round than miss COM or totally miss with a more powerful round in the given caliber. (That's a pretty good argument for carrying a .22LR revolver! Only problem is that it's not much of a 'stopper') though it can be lethal (over time, unless eye/ear/mouth placement).

So, instead of concentrating on perceived ballistic advantages of one round in a given caliber over the other, just carry what you shoot with the best accuracy and are most comfortable with...assuming they are ballistically sufficient. IOW, you don't have to shoot full house loads of anything.

BB looks very promising in gello, etc., but I've settled on the Speer 135gr GDHP +P as my carry round and round to clone.

It pretty much hits to point of aim with my gun at distances up to 10-15 yds. if I do my part. I usually don't practice much beyond that.

It's somewhat stout, but probably not as stout as BB or Rem 158 LHP +P. But that is speculation as to BB and my subjective opinion as to the Rem.

The GD makes nice little holes in paper and I like it better than the Corbon DPX. I also get it relatively cheap from a local guy. All these factors enter into the equation, along with the ability to replicate the load (clone it) AFAIK, so that I can practice a lot with the clones, build up my hand to handle the recoil with them, and be proficient as to the round.

[brentfoto]

I've got to amend my previous statements.

I agree with Socrates that the Monogrip is a tad large for pocket carry in a pocket holster.

I'd have to say the same is true with the attractive Pachmayr Compac grip-a grip that I really, really like even though I haven't shot with them yet (though I've shot the 'Grippers' with a model 49 J-frame and liked them).

So, it's likely I will not continue to carry the Hogue Monogrip or the Pach Compacs on a 442 J-frame in a pocket holster. It just doesn't 'feel right'. IMO, the Compacs are too 'bulky' for pocket carry. The Hogues are somewhat large, slightly cumbersome, and unattractive on that J-frame.

I do have a pair of Pachmayr Compac Professional Grips. These attractive grips are somewhat smaller (10% less) than the Compacs and also have an open backstrap. They appear even smaller (more than 10% for me) for some reason. I feel considerably more comfortable concealing them in a Mika or Nemesis holster in comparison to the Compacs and Hogue Monogrip, though you can indeed pocket carry with those, too. I am concerned about recoil with the Compac Pros, though.

If recoil proves to be a problem, another alternative is to practice with the Compac grips only, and then switch back to the Pachmayr Compac Pros for carry. I'm willing to take that risk as the grips are similar in some respects but the Pros are for smaller hands/fingers. I can adapt... . and it's significantly more likely than not that I'll never have to shoot the weapon at someone, or even draw it in anger.

My strong hand pinky finger rests on the side bottom of the Compac Pros, just barely above the butt, where the grip curves downward to meet the butt. It's not a true three finger grip as with the Monogrip and the Compac. But there's more to grip on to than with the UM or Hogue boot grips-and that's important.

In any event, it's a hard rubber grip but it's GOT TO be better than those rubber boot grips in shooting +P - it just HAS TO BE!

I am starting to consider the possibility of factory old-style wood grips or Barami hip-grip with a Tyler-T, but do not know if they will be of benefit, especially in the 'recoil department'.

Gggggeeeessssshhhhh!

[Socrates]

Thanks for the information, and the experience. What I liked about the mono grip is I sanded it so it was much thinner in profile then the boots from Hogue, and this makes it easier to thunderwear, or pocket carry. However, for pocket carry, the end sticks out in a way that in my pants, might be visible, unless I'm wearing dark slacks. Don't think many folks would figure out what it was, but, can't take that chance here.

The wood grips are short enough that they sit down in my pocket, and, the round end doesn't seem to be noticeable. I use a Mika holster as well, and in the thunderwear. They could also be thinner, and, I'm resigned to carrying loads that allow the gun to be reasonably shootable, i.e. max short barreled, light bullet, .357, more likely either 125 grain slow speer hps, in 38, regular or Plus P, or, ball, in 125 grains. Even with such light bullets, it's still one of the more powerful 12 oz guns around, and, it's a pocket carry gun, in the true sense, and, without the lock, it's reliable.

Keep in mind it's nice to have more then one person trying to solve the same problem. I don't really want to spend 500 dollars in grips to find the perfect grip, and, it's nice to see others contribute with suggestions and experience.

If I'd done the recoil stats, I'd probably have just bought a .38 special. This gun has changed how I buy guns. I now look at the ballistic goal I have, punch that into the computer with the recoil program, and come to a conclusion about what's possible from there.

[brentfoto]

Went to the range tonight and shot 50 Speer .38 spec. 135gr GDHPSB +P, and about 75 test 'clone' loads. That's 125 +P loads.

We're talking about significant loads, up to about 20,000 psi.

Shot these rounds with various grips:

Pachmayr Compac Professionals-PAINFUL after 2 rounds of the Speer. Great for concealment, though. Immediately took them off after only 2 shots and switched grips to the

Pachmayr Compacs- PAINFUL. After only 3-5 rounds of the Speer I switched grips again. The Compacs are a bit bulky for concealment. The grips are very attractive, fit my hand perfectly, and give the impression of a 'smooth, unpainful ride' re recoil. Notwithstanding the above, they were surprisingly disappointing in the felt recoil realm. YMMV.

Hogue Monogrips- Are manageable with the recoil. I like this grip the best for hot loads. A bit of a compromise for pocket carry, but can be done in a Mika or Nemesis.

The Hogue Monogrips 'win out' over all the other rubber grips I've tried concerning recoil. Those grips include the Pachmayrs' above as well as the UM boot grips, and the Hogue Bantams.

The only others grips I'm considering might be the Tyler-T's. They should certainly conceal well enough, but what about my hand from the recoil of round after round of +P for practice? Are +P hot loads 'manageable' with the Tyler T's? I STILL don't know the benefit from buying them, except to fill the gap between the frame and the trigger guard (already exists with the rubber grips) and a more secure grip on the firearm.

One can compromise for concealability:
I am of the view that one should practice with the same grip used for carry. But I've been unable thus far to find a completely suitable concealment grip in which my hand can take the pounding incurred in practice with numerous +P loads.

As a compromise, I guess that one could practice only with the Hogue Monogrips and carry with the Pachmayr Compac Professionals or one of the boot grips. With practice, one should have a proper sight picture, so whether one uses another grip should not upset that sight picture. One must consider and weigh the remote possibility of ever having to pull the gun-nevermind actually shoot someone, with the benefit to one's hand and enjoyability that shooting with the better grip will afford.

One can always do a lot of dry-firing with the carry grip, also, sighting in all the time.

But I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion of using different grips for practice and carry.

[Nnobby45]

I can't imagine shooting full house .357's out of a 12 oz scandium J frame! Although, I have to say that in a self defense situation one might not even feel the recoil..

In a SD situation one might not feel getting hit by a bullet, either.

My 342PD Ti Airlight .38 was more than I cared to practice with using +P ammo. Traded it in on a 642 Airweight. That two or three more oz.s does, indeed, make a difference. I'm in my sixth decade now, so I get beat up easier than when I was a foolish young whippersnapper.

[Socrates]

HMMMM. I think it might be worth running recoil numbers for the Airweights. An extra 25% in weight might make a large difference in recoil, as has been mentioned earlier. Worth running the numbers later. Have to go to work.

[brentfoto]

I can not imagine shooting .38 +P, nevermind .357, in a lighter gun than the Airweight.

Can you direct me to the recoil calculator? Is it FREE?

The only one I know of is on handloads.com and it's free.

[Socrates]

Hi
I've had a VERY long day. Here's the link to the recoil calculator:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

Then here:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...php/recoil.htm

[brentfoto]

Thanks a bunch for those links!

[brentfoto]

I've settled upon the Monogrips for practice and the Bantams for carry. I may try to build up my hand to shoot full SD loads with the Bantams, but will more likely just shoot full practice loads with the Monogrips.

I ain't no masochist!

...And, I like my new Kahr CW9-a lot! There could be a change...

[Socrates]

I was reading this, and it just occured to me that I can't use my usual shooting technique with high recoiling small guns, or, at least haven't tried it with the 360PD.

With 1911's, I've been able to sand the grips smooth. Then, as the gun recoils, I let it, without a death grip on it. This allows the gun to rise in recoil, and, as it does so, I grab it again, yank it down, and shoot it.

Having to death grip the gun makes it impossible to shoot this way. I don't see the difference between the smooth monogrips, and, the wood grips to make much difference.

[brentfoto]

I've changed my shooting stance/grip, by adopting a variation of Miculek's hold on the gun. I'm shooting it more accurately because I have a firmer grip on the J frame by crossing my support hand thumb over the web of the shooting hand, and using my own technique of placing non-shooting forefinger under the trigger guard. Then I exert pressure down with shooting hand and counter-balance it with pressure upward against trigger guard from non-shooting forefinger.

Scroll down to his J-frame hold:

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/.../miculek2.html