Range report: 360 PD self-defense loads... - Page 4

Socrates · April 7, 2008, 05:32 AM

GREAT LINK! THANK YOU!

I'm going to give that one a try, and get back to you...

brentfoto · April 7, 2008, 09:07 AM

Notwithstanding all the foregoing, I purchased a new Kahr CW9 on sale and I'm very pleased with it. I've chosen it for carry over the J-frame.

See the poll and thread that I started on another forum.

A slight thread-drift, and suggest that you read, at minimum, all of page 3 of the thread:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...=1#post4375917

Note that recoil, IMO, is not a significant issue at all with the Kahr CW9. I even shot 3 or 4 +P+ BB with it. I also shot Fed HST, Cor-Bon 115gr JHP +P, factory new Black Hills +P, etc. These +P were shot during my second range trip, which I have not yet reported on the thread, but will when I have the time.

Socrates · April 7, 2008, 05:30 PM

Pretty good thread.

My two cents:

The Kahr's are REALLY expensive around here.
So are the S*W Titanium series.

The main problem with a 2" 357 is, it's really not a 357, when shot out of a 2" barrel. You really need a 3" barrel to get near 357 ballistics. So, regardless of recoil, you end up with a 38, not a 357, really, or at best, a .38 Plus P.

The Glock 26, or maybe the Kahr, give you a 3.48" barrel, at least for the Glock, and, you end up with 357 ballistics with 125 grain bullets. While I haven't run the recoil numbers, I've found actual ballistic tests that record about 1200-1250 fps, from the Glock.

No one has ever posted numbers for the Kahr, however.

I'd be concerned that the 3" is too short to get 9mm ballistics out of the round, but, no testing on it yet.

I did a bit of a search, and found the following in another forum:

Quote:

Kahr PM9. The distance is 10', with a chronograph set up mid way. I fired a maximum 9 shots into each wet pack.

So here are my final test results.

HIGHEST VEL.
Fed. 124 Tac 1059.6 fps
Fed. 124 HST 1059.3 fps
Fed. 124 HST 1057.9 fps
Fed. 124 Tac 1050.9 fps
Fed. 124 Tac 1042.0 fps
Fed. 147 HST 929.9 fps
Fed. 147 HST 927.5 fps
Win. 147 SXT 863.5 fps
Win. 147 RA9T 860.3 fps
Win. 147 SXT 852.0 fps
Win. 147 RA9T 811.5 fps

DEEPEST PEN.
Fed. 124 HST 9 3/8"
Win. 147 RA9T 8 7/8"
Win. 147 RA9T 8 5/8"
Fed. 147 HST 8 9/16"
Fed. 147 HST 8 1/2"
Fed. 124 HST 8 1/2"
Fed. 124 Tac 8 5/16"
Fed. 124 Tac N/A
Fed 124 Tac N/A
Win. 147 SXT N/A
Win. 147 SXT N/A

WIDEST DIA.
Win. 147 RA9T .698"
Win. 147 RA9T .676"
Fed 124 Tac .650"
Fed. 147 HST .624"
Fed. 147 HST .599"
Fed. 124 HST .537"
Fed. 147 HST .519"
Fed 124 Tac N/A
Fed 124 Tac N/A
Win. 147 SXT N/A
Win. 147 SXT N/A

It looks like out of the PM9 you run into the same problems that the 1.8" .357's, you loose so much velocity
that you don't have 9mm at it's best. Add a half inch, or better ammo, and you might get close to the 1200 fps I'd like, anyway. Would be nice to find some tests of the 3.5" Kahr.
At 14 oz. the PM 9 is so close in weight to the airweight that recoil is going to be near the same as the snubbies, however, it does have the advantage of the action absorbing some of the recoil.

The slight extra increase in weight is huge as far as recoil.
A 125 grain bullet @ 1200 fps out of a CW9 Kahr:
Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.

Out of a 360PD:
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 33 fps.

If you aren't concerned about absolute weight, perhaps a Model 60 is a better choice:

Quote:

Out of a model 60
125 grain HP Corbon 1204:
Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

Or the Stainless Kahr...

brentfoto · April 7, 2008, 10:22 PM

Who are you quoting, above?

What is correlation factor for wet newsprint?

The Kahr CW9 was on sale at Turner's for $399.99 less than a month ago. It has a 3.6" barrel. Mine weighs 18.5 oz. with empty magazine appended. It's Kahr's only 'value' gun, priced hundreds lower than the other ones...it's polymer frame w/ss slide.

I don't usually go by numbers except for gello tests. That is the accepted medium.

brassfetcher.com has this for 9mm. Take a peek.

With Glock 3.5"

http://brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%20Lug...20(denim).html

Socrates · April 8, 2008, 12:22 AM

Some guys forum post, in another forum. Forgot to copy it.

I grabbed it mainly for the ballistic SPEED results, not wet newsprint, which, except for the Linebaugh tests, I don't think much of.

Notice the considerable difference between the 3" barrel in the results above, and, your 3.6", or the Glocks. Problem is, the Glock has rifling that increases speed...

brentfoto · April 8, 2008, 12:30 AM

Much ado about nothing, if you ask me. Polygonal may be slightly more accurate but at our distances is negligible. I'm not paricularly worried about speed not being up to par. And the standard rifling of the CW9 is great if you do your own handloading.

When I think of all the BS that goes along with the Airweights and especially the ti or sc frames, the limited round capacity, the difficulty and challenge of shooting the J-frame, and, especially, the PITA of the felt recoil, coupled with grip selection for practice and for carry, and then I shot the Kahr CW9, the choice was obvious for me. YMMV. I still like my J, mostly for concealed carry in pocket holster, but there are other reasonably-priced choices out there. The CW9 conceals well, too, but not as good as J, but almost as well. It's a slim, flat sucker. It appears to be a great bottom feeder and it weighs only 3.4 oz. or so more empty.

Rent a CW9 if you can. If you like it, then maybe you can speak to someone at Turner's and tell them you want one at the sale price and if they can get it for you at that price, then you can be a happy camper like me!

Webleymkv · April 8, 2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

So, regardless of recoil, you end up with a 38, not a 357, really, or at best, a .38 Plus P.

That's a slight exaggeration, the various chrono test I've seen put a full power .357 from a snub about on par with a 9MM +P from a full size auto. The only instance where a .357 is equal to a .38 is when the very mildest .357's are compared to the very hottest .38's.

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/38-snub_vs_357-snub.htm

Socrates · April 8, 2008, 08:49 PM

Webley: You've been played. The difference between a 2.5 and 1 7/8" barrel is huge. That's why I write that article off.

I chronoed Corbon's 125 speer load, 1450 fps rated, at 1204 fps out of my 360PD. The heavier bullets are slower.

Check Buffalobores' website for actual tests with the 1 7/8". The current load I have in my snubby is a Plus P, 158 grain LHP, and, it does around 1140 fps, and recoils like it. Only 357 load close is Fiocchis 147 grain HP, that does 1139 FPS, or around there.

Webleymkv · April 9, 2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

I chronoed Corbon's 125 speer load, 1450 fps rated, at 1204 fps out of my 360PD. The heavier bullets are slower.

Look at the factory published ballistics on Cor-Bon's 125grn .38 +P. It's only 950fps from a 4" barrel and I'd be willing to bet that it's a good bit slower from a 1 7/8" barrel. Their 9mm +P is listed at 1250fps from a 4" barrel which is much closer to the 1204fps you get with their 125grn .357's from your snub. I would expect the heavier bullets to be slower because they were going slower than the 125's to begin with (most full power 158grn loads do 1200-1250fps from a 4" barrel as opposed to 1400-1450fps with the 125's). However, they're still a good bit faster than a .38 Snub with the same bullet weight.

Quote:

Check Buffalobores' website for actual tests with the 1 7/8". The current load I have in my snubby is a Plus P, 158 grain LHP, and, it does around 1140 fps, and recoils like it. Only 357 load close is Fiocchis 147 grain HP, that does 1139 FPS, or around there.

Yes, Buffalobore's .38 +P loads are quite impressive in fact they're some of the hottest I've seen. However, comparing other loads to Buffalobore or Double Tap isn't really fair because these two companies load their ammunition to much higher velocities than other manufacturers. If you wanted a really fair comparison, you should look at what Buffalobore's Heavy .357 Magnum (not their short barrel) load does out of a 1 7/8" barrel. Unfortunately, the shortest barrel that BB test these loads out of is 3". They list their 158grn .38+P out of a " SP101 at 1143. They list their 158grn Heavy .357 out of a 3" S&W J-Frame at 1398. I suppose one could chrono the Buffalobore Heavy .357's out of your revolver, but my arms aren't made like Popeye's so I'm not gonna volunteer. My point is you're comparing a very, very hot .38 to run of the mill .357's.

What does it all mean? Not a whole heck of a lot. You get about the same velocities with your Buffalo Bore .38's that I expect to get with my 158grn Remington .357's. I like the Remingtons because they're a bit cheaper and easier to find (if you don't like Remington, Federal and Winchester have similar loads). I don't see much need, personally, to go with the hot Buffalo Bore .357's because I'm happy with 158grn bullets at 1100-1150fps. If I'm not discontent with that, why put up with the considerable extra recoil?

Socrates · April 9, 2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Buffalobore's .38 +P loads are quite impressive in fact they're some of the hottest I've seen. However, comparing other loads to Buffalobore or Double Tap isn't really fair because these two companies load their ammunition to much higher velocities than other manufacturers. If you wanted a really fair comparison, you should look at what Buffalobore's Heavy .357 Magnum

First, always a pleasure reading your posts.
As for the above quote, I have a bunch of Buffalobores hot stuff. I figured if I couldn't shoot the lower level 357 stuff, why bother with that? If I can actually shoot it out of the 360PD, I'll take all this up and chronograph it at the shop.
Last trip to the range I had the hotter BB stuff in the bag, and, decided I'd shoot something tame, like my .475 Linebaugh with 400 grain bullets at 1350 fps for fun.

Quote:

I don't see much need, personally, to go with the hot Buffalo Bore .357's because I'm happy with 158grn bullets at 1100-1150fps. If I'm not discontent with that, why put up with the considerable extra recoil?

I agree, but, I'm not really sure I'm even happy with the BB plus P stuff, actually shooting it. It recoils a ton, and, that was with my monogrip, not the boot grip. I have to shoot the gun with the wood grips, and Brent's J frame grip, ala Miculeck, and see if that works.

The problem I see with calculated recoil in this gun is that works, if you actually get the velocity advertized. However, if the bullet exits the barrel, at lower velocity, how much powder isn't being burnt, reducing recoil, or, is it all being burnt, and your getting the full recoil, but, due to the lack of barrel length, not the velocity?

I'd like to go back to my table, and give accurate figures on the stuff. I screwed up on the 158 BB Plus P it should read:
"
Heavy 38 special Plus P 158 item 20A Buffalobore 1040 fps
Recoil Energy of 17 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 38 fps.
The Fioochi that recoils, felt recoils about the same as the BB 158 Plus P's, was choroned by someone else out of a snub at about 1130 fps, IIRC
Fioochi 357 Magnum 148 grain 1300 fps
Recoil Energy of 24 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 45 fps."

Guess I'd rather stick with the Fioochi...

Webleymkv · April 10, 2008, 03:49 PM

Socrates, perhaps you should give the Buffalo Bore standard pressure .38's a try. Their ballistics aren't quite as impressive as the +P but I'm willing to bet that they're a lot more pleasant to shoot. Also, Remington's Golden Sabers and some of the more popular 110grn .357 loads might be worth a look. Finally, you might run some recoil figures on Cor-Bon's 110grn .357 load. It's rated at 1500fps from a 4" barrel and I'm thinking that perhaps the lighter bullet may cut the recoil down to a tolerable level while still getting enough velocity to give to the "oomph" you desire.

Socrates · April 11, 2008, 12:33 AM

Webley:
First I'm going to try what I have left with the little wood grips, and that new grip. If they are as unshootable as I think they will be, I'll go to either standard loads, with either 125 grain speer GoldDots, or 158's. The gun has a warning on the barrel, and in the book, not to shoot loads with 120 grain or less bullets. Forcing cone and top strap cutting problems.

I am going to order some more 500 max brass, and, more .38 rounds next week. Kind of busy right now...

s

eriadoc · April 11, 2008, 02:59 PM

Socrates (and everyone else) - thanks for some great info in this thread. I did a range report on my new 340PD that you might find interesting. That thread is here.

Webleymkv · April 11, 2008, 08:12 PM

Socrates, you're correct. I had forgotten about the nothing lighter than 120grn reccomendation. Another option you may consider, Cor-Bon used to make a 125grn .38Spl +P load rated at 1150fps from a 4" barrel if my memory serves. I shot some of these from my all-steel K-frame and they were quite pleasant. If you manage to locate a box or two I'd reccomend giving them a try. Also, if you decide that you like the Buffalo Bore load you might look a Double Tap. They have a 125grn .38 +P load that supposedly does 1100fps from a 1.875" barrel. That seems like similar performance to the Buffalo Bore but DT is considerably less expensive ($29.95/50 as opposed to $22.04/20 from Buffalo Bore). I've shot Double Tap's 10mm ammo before and it's excellent quality stuff.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=215

Socrates · April 12, 2008, 12:11 AM

Webley:
Thank you as always for the excellent suggestions. I do need to order from DT, if for nothing else their zip gun versions of the 375 H&H, but, truth be told, I just need bullets, and I can make my own. Got tons of 375 brass around here, and forgot about it...Thanks for reminding me about DT. I've been doing business with Buffalobore(Tim Sundles) for a long time, and,I respect him for his obsession with the federal governments' illegal importing of canadian wolves, he's a first rate, stand up guy. So's Mike McNett, but, I wish he'd put out some 450 SMC, as he mentioned he might.

I'd like to thank everyone that's offered input on the little gun here, since I've learned a lot, and, I'm going to try most of the things suggested.

Socrates · April 24, 2008, 11:47 PM

Went up to the shop today. I brought the spring kit from Wolff, and, Kit was nice enough to put the 8 lb spring in. We tested it, and, the trigger came out at 12 pounds.

With the spring Jack had cut prior, the trigger pull was 10 pounds.

Wasted 10 bucks on the spring kit...

Guess it's got as good a trigger as is possible. The SA trigger breaks at 4 pounds, but, since travel is so short, it sort of feels better. FA 83 252 22lr trigger came in at over 4 pounds. Nice job, Bob...

Decided that I'm going to get some ammo that doesn't have 45 fps of recoil. Pretty much keep it with standard 38, 158 grain Federal or Buffalobore, NOT plus P.
Have to check the recoil figures, and order. Might go down to 125's.

The grips are now pinned properly in place, and, I'm staying with the Cocobolo. I decided I'm not going to even try shooting the gun with the heavy 357 ammo I have...

So, I now have a pocket .38 that has an MSRP of about 1000 dollars...

and a horrible trigger...

April 7, 2008, 09:07 AM	#77
brentfoto Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 362	Notwithstanding all the foregoing, I purchased a new Kahr CW9 on sale and I'm very pleased with it. I've chosen it for carry over the J-frame. See the poll and thread that I started on another forum. A slight thread-drift, and suggest that you read, at minimum, all of page 3 of the thread: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...=1#post4375917 Note that recoil, IMO, is not a significant issue at all with the Kahr CW9. I even shot 3 or 4 +P+ BB with it. I also shot Fed HST, Cor-Bon 115gr JHP +P, factory new Black Hills +P, etc. These +P were shot during my second range trip, which I have not yet reported on the thread, but will when I have the time. Last edited by brentfoto; April 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM.

April 7, 2008, 05:32 AM	#76
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	GREAT LINK! THANK YOU! I'm going to give that one a try, and get back to you...

April 7, 2008, 10:22 PM	#79
brentfoto Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 362	Who are you quoting, above? What is correlation factor for wet newsprint? The Kahr CW9 was on sale at Turner's for $399.99 less than a month ago. It has a 3.6" barrel. Mine weighs 18.5 oz. with empty magazine appended. It's Kahr's only 'value' gun, priced hundreds lower than the other ones...it's polymer frame w/ss slide. I don't usually go by numbers except for gello tests. That is the accepted medium. brassfetcher.com has this for 9mm. Take a peek. With Glock 3.5" http://brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%20Lug...20(denim).html

April 8, 2008, 12:22 AM	#80
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Some guys forum post, in another forum. Forgot to copy it. I grabbed it mainly for the ballistic SPEED results, not wet newsprint, which, except for the Linebaugh tests, I don't think much of. Notice the considerable difference between the 3" barrel in the results above, and, your 3.6", or the Glocks. Problem is, the Glock has rifling that increases speed...

April 8, 2008, 12:30 AM	#81
brentfoto Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 362	Much ado about nothing, if you ask me. Polygonal may be slightly more accurate but at our distances is negligible. I'm not paricularly worried about speed not being up to par. And the standard rifling of the CW9 is great if you do your own handloading. When I think of all the BS that goes along with the Airweights and especially the ti or sc frames, the limited round capacity, the difficulty and challenge of shooting the J-frame, and, especially, the PITA of the felt recoil, coupled with grip selection for practice and for carry, and then I shot the Kahr CW9, the choice was obvious for me. YMMV. I still like my J, mostly for concealed carry in pocket holster, but there are other reasonably-priced choices out there. The CW9 conceals well, too, but not as good as J, but almost as well. It's a slim, flat sucker. It appears to be a great bottom feeder and it weighs only 3.4 oz. or so more empty. Rent a CW9 if you can. If you like it, then maybe you can speak to someone at Turner's and tell them you want one at the sale price and if they can get it for you at that price, then you can be a happy camper like me!

April 8, 2008, 08:49 PM	#83
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Webley: You've been played. The difference between a 2.5 and 1 7/8" barrel is huge. That's why I write that article off. I chronoed Corbon's 125 speer load, 1450 fps rated, at 1204 fps out of my 360PD. The heavier bullets are slower. Check Buffalobores' website for actual tests with the 1 7/8". The current load I have in my snubby is a Plus P, 158 grain LHP, and, it does around 1140 fps, and recoils like it. Only 357 load close is Fiocchis 147 grain HP, that does 1139 FPS, or around there.

April 10, 2008, 03:49 PM	#86
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Socrates, perhaps you should give the Buffalo Bore standard pressure .38's a try. Their ballistics aren't quite as impressive as the +P but I'm willing to bet that they're a lot more pleasant to shoot. Also, Remington's Golden Sabers and some of the more popular 110grn .357 loads might be worth a look. Finally, you might run some recoil figures on Cor-Bon's 110grn .357 load. It's rated at 1500fps from a 4" barrel and I'm thinking that perhaps the lighter bullet may cut the recoil down to a tolerable level while still getting enough velocity to give to the "oomph" you desire.

April 11, 2008, 12:33 AM	#87
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Webley: First I'm going to try what I have left with the little wood grips, and that new grip. If they are as unshootable as I think they will be, I'll go to either standard loads, with either 125 grain speer GoldDots, or 158's. The gun has a warning on the barrel, and in the book, not to shoot loads with 120 grain or less bullets. Forcing cone and top strap cutting problems. I am going to order some more 500 max brass, and, more .38 rounds next week. Kind of busy right now... s

April 11, 2008, 02:59 PM	#88
eriadoc Member Join Date: March 21, 2008 Posts: 23	Socrates (and everyone else) - thanks for some great info in this thread. I did a range report on my new 340PD that you might find interesting. That thread is here.

April 11, 2008, 08:12 PM	#89
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Socrates, you're correct. I had forgotten about the nothing lighter than 120grn reccomendation. Another option you may consider, Cor-Bon used to make a 125grn .38Spl +P load rated at 1150fps from a 4" barrel if my memory serves. I shot some of these from my all-steel K-frame and they were quite pleasant. If you manage to locate a box or two I'd reccomend giving them a try. Also, if you decide that you like the Buffalo Bore load you might look a Double Tap. They have a 125grn .38 +P load that supposedly does 1100fps from a 1.875" barrel. That seems like similar performance to the Buffalo Bore but DT is considerably less expensive ($29.95/50 as opposed to $22.04/20 from Buffalo Bore). I've shot Double Tap's 10mm ammo before and it's excellent quality stuff. http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=215

April 12, 2008, 12:11 AM	#90
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Webley: Thank you as always for the excellent suggestions. I do need to order from DT, if for nothing else their zip gun versions of the 375 H&H, but, truth be told, I just need bullets, and I can make my own. Got tons of 375 brass around here, and forgot about it...Thanks for reminding me about DT. I've been doing business with Buffalobore(Tim Sundles) for a long time, and,I respect him for his obsession with the federal governments' illegal importing of canadian wolves, he's a first rate, stand up guy. So's Mike McNett, but, I wish he'd put out some 450 SMC, as he mentioned he might. I'd like to thank everyone that's offered input on the little gun here, since I've learned a lot, and, I'm going to try most of the things suggested.

April 24, 2008, 11:47 PM	#91
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Went up to the shop today. I brought the spring kit from Wolff, and, Kit was nice enough to put the 8 lb spring in. We tested it, and, the trigger came out at 12 pounds. With the spring Jack had cut prior, the trigger pull was 10 pounds. Wasted 10 bucks on the spring kit... Guess it's got as good a trigger as is possible. The SA trigger breaks at 4 pounds, but, since travel is so short, it sort of feels better. FA 83 252 22lr trigger came in at over 4 pounds. Nice job, Bob... Decided that I'm going to get some ammo that doesn't have 45 fps of recoil. Pretty much keep it with standard 38, 158 grain Federal or Buffalobore, NOT plus P. Have to check the recoil figures, and order. Might go down to 125's. The grips are now pinned properly in place, and, I'm staying with the Cocobolo. I decided I'm not going to even try shooting the gun with the heavy 357 ammo I have... So, I now have a pocket .38 that has an MSRP of about 1000 dollars... and a horrible trigger...