origin of the "right to keep and bear arms"

[agricola]

cordex

one here, many at home

[USP45]

Agricola: 'an army of one'. An overwhelmed army, but an 'army of one' nonetheless

If only that were true. I would expect that Agricola would find many in agreement here in Occupied New England.

~USP

[Mute]

i still deny the "natural right" theory of RKBA

You can deny it all you want. Doesn't PROVE that it's not true. You have the right to join the flat earth society.

i have already responded to the questions you posted, do a google search about RKBA in the UK and you will come across very few people who acknowledge it as a "natural right" - aside from some libertarians like those at the samizdata site - even Heffer, who has been the lone voice on this, suggests that RKBA would be a "new right" and in response to (his suggestion) breaking of a Hobbesian social contract.

And when did God vacate the heavens to make these bubble-headed, psuedo-intellectual, Zeus wannabes the arbiters of what is or isn't a "natural right."

If we were to look at the example of history, the only "natural right" any man has is to die either of natural causes or at the hands of others. You'd also think freedom isn't a natural right because most of human history shows that tyrants always rise up to rule the world or at the very least their own little kingdoms. In fact, if I were to use your reasoning, freedom and liberty is a man made concept because most people in all of history has lived under the oppression of one form or another.

Just because some tea sipping dolt didn't declare the right to arm oneself a "natural right" doesn't exclude it from being so. I suppose finding a mate and procreating is only a government mandate since I don't see that being declared a pre-existing right in any written law either.

[gburner]

Agricola....

I read that tripe previously and still don't think that it constitutes an answer to the question presented.....

If we were to believe the reasoning of your answer, a political party manifesto, or decree, served notice to the general populace of your country that these are the rules and regs that WILL BE followed and woe be unto them that do not follow them. There will be no open debate, no referendum, as the elites cannot trust the unwashed masses to make intellegent choices as to their fundamental rights, including self defense. This passes for freedom in your country??? You call your government a democracy??? Pythonesque.

[Blackhawk]

gburner,

"Pythonesque"?

Does that mean resembling a snake, or what?

[gburner]

As in Monty Python. If you're not aware....no shame. Go to your local movie rental and check out "The Holy Grail" or any one of their other tapes. No one can point out the idiocy and arrogance of the Brits like they can.

[Blackhawk]

Thanks.

That's the second time on TFL that my lack of knowledge about Monty Python has bitten me. Mike Irwin got me confused with it another time, I believe.

Maybe I'm mellow enough now to enjoy it....

[MeekAndMild]

There will be no open debate, no referendum, as the elites cannot trust the unwashed masses to make intellegent choices as to their fundamental rights, including self defense.

I could not help but notice that Aggie never shares his true background, philosophy nor motivation. This leads me to really wonder about him/her.

[gburner]

"This leads me to really wonder about him/her."

Meek....would you care to share what yer cookin'?

[agricola]

sigh.

gburner,

in this country one votes for his or her MP. that MP sets out a list of things that he or she believes in, if one doesnt like it then one can vote for other candidates that have different views or who belong to another political party, or stand yourself for whatever you believe in which has been done succesfully at least twice in the last 10 years, once on an anti-corruption ticket, and once on the future of the NHS. i gather this is a similar system to elections to the US legislature, or did you get a referendum on the assault weapons ban? i keep trying to tell you, but RKBA is not an issue over here to anyone except the US-inspired libertarian fringe.

i have already told you what i do for a living. my background is that both of my parents were what would be termed here "working class" and both in employment as a welder and a geriatric nurse. i went to the usual schools, sixth form and then university on what was one of the last grants (ie: the state paid for me to be there) although i had to work and take out a loan. politically some of my views are socialist, some welsh nationalist, and i would support the EU albeit in a less bureaucratic more representative form. since my parents, and my grandparents generation made sacrifices for the stuff i had, i see no reason why i shouldnt work to pay their pensions and healthcare. i also believe that, by our history at least, big business is not good at running public services.

[MeekAndMild]

heavy sigh,

true background, philosophy nor motivation

l should have said true intellectual background. It is difficult to communicate with someone when they don't provide enough information to establish a common language nor format for discussion.

This junior high school debate goes nowhere. I'm not interested in the verbage but rather the thought behind the words.

[gburner]

I find that the statement 'RKBA is not an important issue over here' to be somewhat incredible as your rates of murder, assault, rape, robbery and home invasion increase. Are your contemporaries so fatalistic that they would prefer to lay down in the face of violent criminal behavior rather than use every option to defend themselves?

[agricola]

meek,

if it helps i attended a redbrick university and got my undergrad degree (albeit a 2nd tho )

gburner,

murder and rape are amazingly low for a "socialist hellhole", assaults are a separate issue, but a good two thirds of that figure are "common assault", robberies were increasing for reasons already discussed (and indeed the figures since april 2002 are down, by about 33% in the Met as people return from antiterrorist duties to the boroughs). it isnt an issue, period. the only voice calling for RKBA (Simon Heffer) in any case called it a "new right"

[Romulus]

the only voice calling for RKBA (Simon Heffer) in any case called it a "new right"

Well I guess that's the final word on the subject...what is the origin of the RKBA? It is to be found in Mr. Heffer's pronunciamentos on the subject. There is no origin. It is a new right cut of brand spanking new cloth...

[Blackhawk]

Well I guess that's the final word on the subject...what is the origin of the RKBA? It is to be found in Mr. Heffer's pronunciamentos on the subject. There is no origin. It is a new right cut of brand spanking new cloth...

Just think of all the time, aggravation, and bandwidth Aggie could have saved himself and everybody else by just saying that in his opening post. He wouldn't have had any reason to open the thread in the first place.

Is this thread analogous to the quip about rasslin' pigs? You just get dirty, nothing changes, and the pig enjoys it....

P.S.
I DO hope that was his final word on the subject....