Spare mags - a rational discussion

[Wildalaska]

Or perhaps it is inconvenient because it takes up space in one's pocket that they feel would be better taken up with something else.

Exactly. Already have the spare batteries and bulb in case my flashlight doesnt work (use the light more than a gun), the spare set of keys in case I lose my primary sets, the spare spring for my knife (hey, they break, got to open it), the duplicate credit cards, the spare cell phone battery......

WildextraseverywhereAlaska TM

[OldMarksman]

Or perhaps it is inconvenient because it takes up space in one's pocket that they feel would be better taken up with something else.

Of course.

And how inconvenient may depend on how you dress. As a retiree, I often, but not always, wear cargo shorts in the summer--and I still don't really want to give up space for a magazine.

So, the question, I should think, comes down to the utility of having the magazine.

Those excellent posts by Fastbolt are worth reading. I think that for me as a civilian, the likelihood is far less than remote that, were I to somehow need an extra magazine in a justifiable self defense scenario in a street environment, I would be able to use it. Think Tueller drill, not a pitched gunfight.

LEO friends carry high-capacity weapons plus extra magazines plus back-up guns plus radios. But they are sworn to enforce the law. I am simply justified in defending myself (and spouse) against imminent threat when and only when it is immediately necessary to do so. When the threat ceases to exist, so does the justification.

I do keep reloads in the car.

Now, if I were to walk some distance from the car in a circumstance presenting higher than usual risk (and I generally try to avoid such circumstances), I might see the need for additional risk mitigation.

Extra magazine? Probably not for ordinary self-defense--I probably would not be able to use it. On the trail with a single-column .45, it might make a lot of sense.

New York reload? Maybe--greater chance that it would be effective, I think.

But is it worth the "inconvenience"? Not usually, probably, but I've heard Mas Ayoob suggest back-up cell phones, guns, and pocket knives. Of course, he might have been speaking from the perspective of a law enforcement officer.

I invite comment, particularly from professionals, civilians who have participated in relevant training, or qualified instructors.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

But is it worth the "inconvenience"?...

Personally, I just don't find it all that inconvenient. I'm already carrying a gun (in a belt holster -- usually IWB), and I always carry a knife in clipped to my pocket and a cell phone on my belt. One, or even two, single stack magazines in a belt pouch just isn't that big a deal at that stage.

[OldMarksman]

Personally, I just don't find it all that inconvenient. I'm already carrying a gun (in a belt holster -- usually IWB), and I always carry a knife in clipped to my pocket and a cell phone on my belt. One, or even two, single stack magazines in a belt pouch just isn't that big a deal at that stage.

Let me ask this--based on your training, is it feasible to reload in the circumstance of a street attack (21 foot scenario, for example)?

And this--if you had a twelve shot compact, do you think you would carry an extra magazine?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

Let me ask this--based on your training, is it feasible to reload in the circumstance of a street attack (21 foot scenario, for example)?...

I have no idea. It all depends on exactly how it happens. The devil is in the details. And how the heck can I know that if I have my particular "bad day", that will be my particular problem?

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

...if you had a twelve shot compact, do you think you would carry an extra magazine?...

Yes, I don't see it being inconvenient enough to leave at home. A spare magazine, even a 12 round double stack, isn't going to be that much harder for me to carry than a single stack, especially with the other stuff I'm already going to be lugging around.

The bottom line for me is that I just have no way of knowing what my problem is going to be. I know the odds favor not having a problem at all. And beyond that the odds favor not needing an extra magazine.

But rare things happen. And if for my particular problem a extra magazine could have made a difference, I'm going to feel pretty stupid if I don't have one, especially when I really don't find it to be that much of a bother.

To put it another way, for me the upside of not carrying an extra magazine is pretty inconsequential -- it's not a bother to me to carry one. But the possible downside of not carrying an extra magazine, even though extremely unlikely, is highly unsatisfactory.

[MLeake]

[QUOTE]Let me ask this--based on your training, is it feasible to reload in the circumstance of a street attack (21 foot scenario, for example)?/QUOTE]

My first answer would be that it is not possible, let alone feasible, for me to reload in any circumstance if I don't have a spare magazine in the first place.

My second answer is that based on my training, I should ideally try to find cover prior to reloading. Barriers between us and BGs are always nice to find or create.

My third answer would be that if I'm stuck in the open, if I have a spare magazine in a belt carrier I can reload in about two seconds. It would be a long two seconds, with bullets flying... fishing for a magazine in a pocket would probably add a few seconds to the process.

My fourth answer would be that my training includes well over a thousand hours of hand to hand (3-4 times a week in more intensive training years, at 2-2.5 hours per session; I'd say about four and a half years qualified as "intensive", while several others have been at 1/3 to 1/2 that rate), and since the 21 foot scenario is based on an attacker closing distance with a melee weapon, that I'd have a better chance than many of fending him off long enough to drop and replace a magazine. This assumes I keep my cool and don't freeze up when a live blade, hatchet, or whatever is moving at me.

My final answer would be that tools don't make up for training, so train as much and as realistically as you can; but even with training, there are things that will be very, very hard to do if you don't bring the right tools.

OldMarksman also asked:

And this--if you had a twelve shot compact, do you think you would carry an extra magazine?

To which I'd say, my go-to CCW at the moment is a CZ75D PCR, which has a 14 round magazine, but I carry a spare. Again, I was trained that one should always have a spare magazine with a semi-auto, regardless of capacity, so that's what I usually carry unless my clothing just won't allow it.

[pax]

Force Science newsletter #13, from early 2005, includes a fascinating story written by a California cop who was involved in a fatal shooting inside a McDonald's while he was off-duty and armed with an 11 round Glock 26. You can read the story about a third of the way down the page at http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/...ncealed-carry/ and draw your own conclusions. There are several lessons there that might seem to apply to this thread.

pax

[Erik]

Typed out but not entered before Pax's last post:

Lets not detour too much: in-fight reloads are possible. So is continuing the fight beyond initial contact, a topic which may or may not be related to the need to reload. They both, however, are often not possible to those who have resigned themselves to the "fact" that they will not be based on... whatever the rational is; age, training, fitness, ability, odds, occupation, technique, caliber, platform, some combination, etc.

Interesting take on things by some, though. Please, continue.

[OldMarksman]

Upon reflection, I'm not sure an extra magazine would necessarily prove all that useful in most justifiable civilian SD situations, but if needed it would prove more useful than empty pockets.

I'm convinced.

Good thread.

[Nnobby45]

First 2 are hollow points, the others are FMJs. Why? well, im in a house with a bunch of little kids.

What happens to a hollow point bullet when it hits wall board material?

A. It flattens out like a pan cake and doesn't penetrate and endanger the children.

B. The clogged nose prevents expansion and penetration is the same as hard ball.

C. Even if it does expand, it still penetrates wall board and represents a danger.

[Wuchak]

Sounds like in your situation an extra mag is a good idea. Around my area I'm comfortable with a 5 shot snubby but we don't have rampant multiple attacker crime.

HP's will penetrate many layers of drywall before stopping. Head over to the box o'truth and look at some of their tests.

[Kyo]

really sad pax. but we don't know what would have happened if the cop didn't stay. more people could have died, or the girl could have lived. that we don't know.
It seems like that spare mag for the cop didn't really do anything for him. The guy was down and out after taking 10 shots. But I do understand the relief of re-assurance. i need to pick up a conceal mag holder

[Japle]

Posted by Wuchak
Sounds like in your situation an extra mag is a good idea. Around my area I'm comfortable with a 5 shot snubby but we don't have rampant multiple attacker crime.

I live in a neighborhood where, to quote Evan Marshall, "Three stolen bicycles in a month is a crime wave". Three cops live on my block.
Still, there was a shooting 3 tenths of a mile north of my house last year.

I carry 2 guns and 42 rounds of ammo. Why not? It's really no trouble.

[Wuchak]

Originally Posted by Pax

Force Science newsletter #13, from early 2005, includes a fascinating story written by a California cop who was involved in a fatal shooting inside a McDonald's while he was off-duty and armed with an 11 round Glock 26. You can read the story about a third of the way down the page at http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/...ncealed-carry/ and draw your own conclusions. There are several lessons there that might seem to apply to this thread.

Edit: I removed my comments as they were too far off-topic.

In this story he didn't need the extra magazines, even though he had them, since he had already shot the guy 10 times and the guy was down and out. He could have taken cover and watched the guy until the police arrived. Having the extra mag let him approach the downed BG, which I think was a bad move even with the gun reloaded.

[Kyo]

not to get off topic, but wuchak we don't know if they guy would have shot anyone on the way out, or outside or anything. so you can't say let him go and be a good witness. its not your decision. it was this guy's. yes, the girl died. but those actions could have saved more people than 1 person. but we don't and won't know.
yea i don't think he needed the extra mag anyway, cause it seems like the guy was already done for

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. The officer may not have been smart to start the gun fight as he did.

2. If you do train - you have to be aware of the second backup shooter. If this was that kind of intensive event - the extra mag would have been necessary.

3. Because there wasn't a secondary opponent in this one - doesn't mean that there couldn't be. Let's think a touch.

If you don't want to carry extra ammo - for God's Sake - don't already. Take the risk you don't need it. Once again:

1. You probably don't need a gun most days.
2. You probably face a low intensity situation if you do. Go away - BG and he or she does.
3. You probably don't get into a high intensity situation - but it could happen - figure out if you want to have a better chance in that.

If you want to argue that Folks who plan for #3 are silly, then most folks in the country think carrying in general is not worth it. Only 1 to 4% of state populations get permits or licenses. 80% of those with licenses don't even carry much. Thus, the odds say that anyone who carries at all is nutsy.

[wm.mcintosh]

Living in Memphis I carry whenever I leave my house. My line of work requries that I carry, and my line of work has proven over and over again that not carrying a weapon when not at work can prove hazardous to ones health. I look at carrying spare mags as a necessity not an option. When I carry my Glock I have three 15 round mags, one in the weapon and two one a belt mag holder.

[Wuchak]

Originally Posted by wm.mcintosh

Living in Memphis I carry whenever I leave my house. My line of work requries that I carry, and my line of work has proven over and over again that not carrying a weapon when not at work can prove hazardous to ones health. I look at carrying spare mags as a necessity not an option. When I carry my Glock I have three 15 round mags, one in the weapon and two one a belt mag holder.

It sounds like your line of work increases your risk of needing the extra ammo so you have made the smart choice to carry it. However that doesn't mean that everyone else's risk level is the same as yours.

One other thing about the situation of the officer in the story above. Due to his officer status and mindset he attempted to apprehend the robber. Personally I would have told everyone to get out and then left the building with my family and moved as far away from the place as possible. I don't feel that having my CCW requires me to play policeman or hero. If I have a chance to retreat from the danger zone I'll do so. I'm going to try to save some corporation's money. The other patrons and the staff have the same opportunity to carry a firearm as I do. If the employees are not allowed to carry at work then that's a risk they choose to take by working there. It's not my duty as a CCW holder to act as savior and get in the line of fire because a corporate policy left them unable to defend themselves. Probably not a popular opinion but I carry to protect my family and I, not the rest of the world, and if retreating and living is an option I'll take it every time.

[pax]

Wuchak,

We sure see enough of a mindset similar to that off-duty officer's here among people who have had NO training of any type (see thread here for one specific example). No point in blaming that mindset on police training -- it's probably built in. These guys are going to jump in, no matter what, and have the confidence to believe that their actions will never make the situation worse for those around them. Somehow examples to the contrary rarely or never shake that confidence, and that's okay - really, it is. Even though this type of personality often makes that kind of mistake, I'd rather live in a world with these guys than without them. But the best of all possible worlds would be one where people of this type were capable of protecting others and also capable of pulling back if that was the wiser call, where these guys possessed the judgement and intelligence enough to recognize that rushing in isn't always the only possible choice.

As I said, there were several applicable lessons in that link. The paragraph above is a sort of sub-lesson, one that the people most in need of learning it are least likely to heed. But here's the main lesson: that guy did need another magazine, because by the time his tunnel vision had subsided enough for him to look around for other threats, his gun was empty and he had no way to protect himself from those other threats if they had existed. He lucked out. Standing in the middle of an unsecured scene with an empty weapon is not a good place to be.

pax

[vox rationis]

I usually carry a spare magazine on my belt in a Fobus paddle single mag holder and it is totally concealed with a button down shirt that's not too form fitting. It is so darn easy, it would be a total waste not to carry it

And... here it comes...it is better to have and not need, than to need and not have

[orionengnr]

Whether I'm carrying a revolver or a semi-auto pistol, I always carry a reload (speed loader, speed strip, full-moon clip or magazine, as applicable).

As I no longer own anything that might be remotely construed as "high-cap" (a 1911 is the highest-capacity pistol I own) some will say that one reload is woefully inadequate....and they may be right.

That said, I don't see any downside to carrying a reload, whether to use as a clearance/failure remedy or as a true reload.

Now as far as carrying any more ammo, I have a hard time envisioning a scenario (especially a multi-BG scenario) where I have expended all of my ammo without some sort of resolution (and realistically, it probably won't be a good one). I do not honestly expect to out-gun three or four BGs single-handedly...sounds like fantasy to me.

Just my .02 worth...

[Stevie-Ray]

Though I'm not averse to carrying a spare mag, I simply don't as of now. I do carry a BUG, though. Most of this stems from throwing the P32 in the back pocket so that there is always a gun on me, even if haste prevents donning a previously safed primary. For the most part I have both on me at all times. Seeing as though I would probably fit in the carry as much ammo as you can group, as far as area goes (just south of Detroit), I expect if I was to find a mag pouch that would fit nicely next to a Don Hume JIT slide, I'd probably be up for it.