Pfc. Lynndie England pled guilty...

1BadF350 · May 2, 2005, 03:55 PM

Am I the only one who thinks she just looks like a child molester?

Lawyer Daggit · May 2, 2005, 05:42 PM

I find it hard to believe that the behavior that she indulged in was not 'officially' sanctioned given the lack of training they received re Geneva Convention.

I think she is just another sorry case of a grunt taking the flack for seniors.

kjm · May 2, 2005, 06:19 PM

I think she looks like she just had a baby with her boyfriend who is also going to the pokey for a while. I do think the scandal went higher than who got prosecuted. After the first PGW, the enlisteds who smuggled back weapons as trophies recieved long sentences where the officers usually recieved administrative actions. All the sentences were overturned because of the disparity in sentencing. Maybe this will be the case in Abu Grhaib.

UT_Air_Assault · May 2, 2005, 06:25 PM

There was obviosuly a breakdown in leadership, no matter what happened. Where was the Platoon Sgt or Platoon Leader? I haven't heard anything yet about the PL getting tried.
But, I'm wondering how a bunch of PFCs and Spec-4s could think of this all on their own without someone encouraging them and/or looking the other way.

FirstFreedom · May 2, 2005, 06:47 PM

scapegoat for the higher ups.

Trapp · May 2, 2005, 07:05 PM

12

Lawyer Daggit · May 2, 2005, 08:15 PM

I think people higher up knew only too well, the lack of training regarding the Geneva Convention is telling given the fairly good nature of training in the Military today, and the nature of the humiliation was of a sort that would only really work effectively on a muslim leads me to smell a rat.

If not ordered it must at the very least have been condoned until that sticky substance hit the fan.

UT_Air_Assault · May 2, 2005, 08:23 PM

Trapp are you insane or just blowing off steam?

Is that the America you dream of? Where we can do anything we want to people, just because they are "insurgents" or "terrorists" (or "unter-mench" perhaps). No one deserves to be treated like that and if it is condoned by society, it's a slippery road that leads to Auschwitz or Dachau.

Trapp · May 2, 2005, 10:17 PM

Probably steam....Thats why I stay away from political forums. I just get Pissed about some really stupid isht that goes on........

jonathon · May 2, 2005, 10:41 PM

Why do they even bother to take terrorists as prisoners? The minute they get out, they go kill more Americans.

Every terrorist in Abu Ghraib should've got two in the head and left to rot in the desert with a sign "This is what we do to Terrorists"

And you know.. the terrorist that slut(England) was dragging on a leash, looked like he was enjoyin himself.

9mmsnoopy · May 2, 2005, 10:43 PM

she didnt chop off any heads, which is more than the enemy can say.

jonathon · May 2, 2005, 10:46 PM

She did have sex with other soldiers infront of the prisoners, giving them all erections though

I guess murdering innocents is nothing compared to commiting lude sex acts infront of baby killin' terrorists.

kjm · May 2, 2005, 10:47 PM

You know- I don't care if you're blowing off steam or not. The kinds of people who ended up in this particular cell-block of this particular prison weren't quite what we would call innocent.

While what happened to them wasn't nice, I don't care one bit.

It is kind of like the death penalty. Technically and morally, I oppose capital punishment- however, I also know the kinds of people who get the death penalty, and hence, I don't lose too much sleep over the process either.

I say give Ms. England six months behind bars and let her out to pose in a dirty magazine and write a book with PVT Graner. Then let them sell the "made for TV" deal for a cool 4 million and we'll all be happy!

jonathon · May 2, 2005, 10:48 PM

How about a guard on death row

IZinterrogator · May 2, 2005, 11:10 PM

She admitted to the judge today that Graner and the others were doing it for their own amusement, not as part of some bigger plot run by the Pentagon.

If you don't know who is in an Iraqi prison, don't judge what should happen to them since you don't know why they are there.

jefnvk · May 3, 2005, 12:17 AM

Sorry, I don't buy into the 'they're prisoners, do what you want'.

Do I think that this is being overblown? Hell yeah.

When you take someone prisoner, you become responsible for them. You are in charge of protecting, feeding and giving them aid.

I don't know if this 'torture' was exactly that, but their actions wern't appropriate. I sure hope none of you falsely end up in prison with captors that think like you.

As for the trial? Someone with a grudge against the war trying to point out all the bad things that happen. If this is all tehy can find to incriminate the US Army, we must be doing a pretty good job over there.

Oh and comments like:

Quote:

I believe animals should be treated like animals.

:barf:

Overman · May 3, 2005, 12:19 AM

"Leash Girl". That's what Matt Drudge was calling her.

That reminded me of a quote (by a very disturbed comedian by the name of 'Emo') which was:

"You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: Stuff you pay good money for in later life."

I know, I know, I'm in need of help, and I am not fit for polite society. You don't have to tell me.

**Mike Irwin** · May 3, 2005, 12:34 AM

"I would not condemn her for what she did. I believe animals should be treated like animals."

Funny, that.

When Saddam was treating his people like animals, it was the most horrific thing in the world, and that was one of the stated reasons why we waltzed into Iraq in the first place...

Gotta save the Iraqi people from Saddam!

Great, that's great.

Who's going to save them from us?

Overman · May 3, 2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

When Saddam was treating his people like animals, it was the most horrific thing in the world, and that was one of the stated reasons why we waltzed into Iraq in the first place...

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

- Friedrich Nietzche

paratrooper · May 3, 2005, 01:23 AM

They were absolutely stupid to take pictures and spread them around . The old saying "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead." If what they did was only a rumor there would be no uproar . They were stupid .

UT_Air_Assault · May 3, 2005, 06:46 AM

I know I'm wasting my breath here, but.................Does anyone here consider the larger ramifications of this inncident towards our ability to "win hearts and minds" in the middle east. To them, the face of American occupation of Iraq is England's chubby face, instead of all the good that Americans are doing overthere. Al Jazeera is like any other news organization and is going to report what sells, i.e.- Controversy (By the way their actually pretty moderate, here's their English website http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage). Thus this has been plastered all over the Middle East making our job that much tougher.
The fact that so many on here think this is a good thing, makes me even more happy that instead of re-joining the NRA, I gave that money to the ACLU. The fact that so many of you believe that might makes right, is truely horrifying. :barf:

LAK · May 3, 2005, 07:07 AM

I think it is extremely unlikely that the command element was detached from what has been happening. But it is the interface with the civilians involved where it apparently branches out of the military and enters the realm of government.

The other aspect is a reflection of all levels involved; one shouldn't need a Geneva Convention or "training" to feel some revulsion at the idea of comitting sexually or other perverted and violent acts against people. No matter what their alleged crimes are. Human beings have consciences which are usually quite effective - unless they are desensitized and numbed.

kjm · May 3, 2005, 07:42 AM

UT: "GIGEM!!!!"

That being said, our ability to win hearts and minds was damaged beyond repair when in 1991, we sat back and watched Sadam's troops roll into Nasyria and begin a murder and genocide spree that took the lives of over 300,000 in and around that town.

The reason I don't believe that any of these Privates were the brains behind this is that I've heard that photos were used to bribe these Arab men into becoming informants. Tell us the information we want to hear or we'll show these pictures around your neighborhood of you being dominated by a woman. In a macho culture that makes Latino macho culture look almost feminine, it would appear that this would be worse than death.

Such a good technique for getting information was not the idea of a bunch of West Virginia bumpkins whose highest aspirations were to work at the local prison. I don't believe they understood the Arab culture enough to figure it out. I believe that some controlled deeds eventually led to the breakdown of all order and discipline and they continued to have fun with it. War makes you bored. If the worst torture you engage in is making inmates watch you make whoopee with your boyfriend, then I guess I'd want to give her an article 15 and reduction, not prison. All things told- what was happening there was a whole lot better than what was happeing three months before we captured the prison. It was not so much a breakdown of discipline as a controlled process IMO.

When your attorney says to just fess up and take responsibility in lieu of an extra decade in prison, you'll fess up.

CastleBravo · May 3, 2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Such a good technique for getting information was not the idea of a bunch of West Virginia bumpkins whose highest aspirations were to work at the local prison.

Most of the alleged behavior by the prison guards was just vicious and/or retarded, not anything resembling directed intelligence gathering. In fact, nobody has presented any evidence that any member of any intelligence agency had anything to do with what went on. The fact that we have a bunch of inbred morons passing around photos of what they were doing for fun is a pretty big hint that intelligence agencies weren't involved in what is going on. Not because it was unethical, but becuase it was just too goddamn stupid.

Look, there are lots of methods of extracting information from potential sources that are borderline-illegal or outright prohibited. And I'm sure we are using lots of them. None of them, however, involve stupid rednecks, a polariod camera, and ass-play.

I think the chain of command should be court martialed for dereliction of duty. But I don't buy it that this was some directed intel-gathering effort. Maybe I slept through the part of CI class involving Deliverance re-enactments?

kjm · May 3, 2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Look, there are lots of methods of extracting information from potential sources that are borderline-illegal or outright prohibited. And I'm sure we are using lots of them. None of them, however, involve stupid rednecks, a polariod camera, and ass-play.

OK- so you have a point. A funny point at that. It sounds like something my father would be saying to me after he got a call from my principal!

Leadership should be involved in all of this and not some staff Sergeant. Where were the Officers who were overseeing operations at this joint? Even if it was "ass play" as you said- there was entirely too much of it going on not to be noticed before it was.

What ever happened to opsec? When I was in the PGW, we had our mail scanned for breeches of security. How'd these pics get out? A whole breakdown of the COC occurred here, not just a few bumpkins. Besides, I still believe that you can extract a lot of information from informants in an ongoing process by using violation of cultural taboos against them. I haven't been to school to learn that, I have no certifications. In my deviant mind, it is easy to extract information like that.

It is perhaps why the Soviets would use prostitutes against espionage targets in the U.S. When the target was shown pics of him with another woman or worse- with another man, the target would be quite compliant in providing information. It isn't so farfetched. It could be a case of hillbilly grabass or it could be a directed process that went too far when the professionals weren't supervising.

May 2, 2005, 03:55 PM	#1
1BadF350 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: Ashburn, VA Posts: 915	Pfc. Lynndie England pled guilty... Am I the only one who thinks she just looks like a child molester? __________________ "I actually don't know what a barrel shroud is, I think it's a shoulder thing that goes up." Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) Author HR:1022, when asked what a barrel shroud is and why it needs to be regulated.

May 2, 2005, 06:19 PM	#3
kjm Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 1,871	I think she looks like she just had a baby with her boyfriend who is also going to the pokey for a while. I do think the scandal went higher than who got prosecuted. After the first PGW, the enlisteds who smuggled back weapons as trophies recieved long sentences where the officers usually recieved administrative actions. All the sentences were overturned because of the disparity in sentencing. Maybe this will be the case in Abu Grhaib. __________________ COME AND TAKE IT!!!

May 2, 2005, 07:05 PM	#6
Trapp Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: KTN Posts: 1,221	12 __________________ HDR Ban!? It's a shame all of my guns sank with my boat last week... Time to catch up.....like mayonnaise Last edited by Trapp; May 4, 2005 at 11:00 PM.

May 2, 2005, 10:17 PM	#9
Trapp Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: KTN Posts: 1,221	Probably steam....Thats why I stay away from political forums. I just get Pissed about some really stupid isht that goes on........ __________________ HDR Ban!? It's a shame all of my guns sank with my boat last week... Time to catch up.....like mayonnaise

May 2, 2005, 10:41 PM	#10
jonathon Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Washougal, Washington. YEHAW! Posts: 1,872	Why do they even bother to take terrorists as prisoners? The minute they get out, they go kill more Americans. Every terrorist in Abu Ghraib should've got two in the head and left to rot in the desert with a sign "This is what we do to Terrorists" And you know.. the terrorist that slut(England) was dragging on a leash, looked like he was enjoyin himself. __________________ Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good More CZ M52 info than you can shake a stick at!

May 2, 2005, 05:42 PM	#2
Lawyer Daggit Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 1,181	I find it hard to believe that the behavior that she indulged in was not 'officially' sanctioned given the lack of training they received re Geneva Convention. I think she is just another sorry case of a grunt taking the flack for seniors.

May 2, 2005, 06:25 PM	#4
UT_Air_Assault Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2005 Posts: 142	There was obviosuly a breakdown in leadership, no matter what happened. Where was the Platoon Sgt or Platoon Leader? I haven't heard anything yet about the PL getting tried. But, I'm wondering how a bunch of PFCs and Spec-4s could think of this all on their own without someone encouraging them and/or looking the other way.

May 2, 2005, 06:47 PM	#5
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	scapegoat for the higher ups.

May 2, 2005, 08:15 PM	#7
Lawyer Daggit Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 1,181	I think people higher up knew only too well, the lack of training regarding the Geneva Convention is telling given the fairly good nature of training in the Military today, and the nature of the humiliation was of a sort that would only really work effectively on a muslim leads me to smell a rat. If not ordered it must at the very least have been condoned until that sticky substance hit the fan.

May 2, 2005, 08:23 PM	#8
UT_Air_Assault Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2005 Posts: 142	Trapp are you insane or just blowing off steam? Is that the America you dream of? Where we can do anything we want to people, just because they are "insurgents" or "terrorists" (or "unter-mench" perhaps). No one deserves to be treated like that and if it is condoned by society, it's a slippery road that leads to Auschwitz or Dachau.

May 2, 2005, 10:43 PM	#11
9mmsnoopy Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Thrillsville ,Tx Posts: 904	she didnt chop off any heads, which is more than the enemy can say. __________________ beretta cx4 storm .40 caliber sig P290 Kahr PM9 Glock 26 Bushmaster AR15

May 2, 2005, 10:46 PM	#12
jonathon Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Washougal, Washington. YEHAW! Posts: 1,872	She did have sex with other soldiers infront of the prisoners, giving them all erections though I guess murdering innocents is nothing compared to commiting lude sex acts infront of baby killin' terrorists. __________________ Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good More CZ M52 info than you can shake a stick at!

May 2, 2005, 10:47 PM	#13
kjm Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 1,871	You know- I don't care if you're blowing off steam or not. The kinds of people who ended up in this particular cell-block of this particular prison weren't quite what we would call innocent. While what happened to them wasn't nice, I don't care one bit. It is kind of like the death penalty. Technically and morally, I oppose capital punishment- however, I also know the kinds of people who get the death penalty, and hence, I don't lose too much sleep over the process either. I say give Ms. England six months behind bars and let her out to pose in a dirty magazine and write a book with PVT Graner. Then let them sell the "made for TV" deal for a cool 4 million and we'll all be happy! __________________ COME AND TAKE IT!!!

May 2, 2005, 10:48 PM	#14
jonathon Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Washougal, Washington. YEHAW! Posts: 1,872	How about a guard on death row __________________ Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good More CZ M52 info than you can shake a stick at!

May 2, 2005, 11:10 PM	#15
IZinterrogator Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2004 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,457	How about that? She admitted to the judge today that Graner and the others were doing it for their own amusement, not as part of some bigger plot run by the Pentagon. If you don't know who is in an Iraqi prison, don't judge what should happen to them since you don't know why they are there. __________________ "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” - Samuel Adams

May 3, 2005, 12:19 AM	#17
Overman Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2005 Location: Colorado (not Denver or Boulder) Posts: 186	"Leash Girl". That's what Matt Drudge was calling her. That reminded me of a quote (by a very disturbed comedian by the name of 'Emo') which was: "You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: Stuff you pay good money for in later life." I know, I know, I'm in need of help, and I am not fit for polite society. You don't have to tell me.

May 3, 2005, 12:34 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"I would not condemn her for what she did. I believe animals should be treated like animals." Funny, that. When Saddam was treating his people like animals, it was the most horrific thing in the world, and that was one of the stated reasons why we waltzed into Iraq in the first place... Gotta save the Iraqi people from Saddam! Great, that's great. Who's going to save them from us?

May 3, 2005, 01:23 AM	#20
paratrooper Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2000 Location: Kingman AZ Posts: 1,290	They were absolutely stupid to take pictures and spread them around . The old saying "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead." If what they did was only a rumor there would be no uproar . They were stupid . __________________ TOM NRA LDMA AMERICAN LEGION U.S. PARATROOPER

May 3, 2005, 06:46 AM	#21
UT_Air_Assault Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2005 Posts: 142	I know I'm wasting my breath here, but.................Does anyone here consider the larger ramifications of this inncident towards our ability to "win hearts and minds" in the middle east. To them, the face of American occupation of Iraq is England's chubby face, instead of all the good that Americans are doing overthere. Al Jazeera is like any other news organization and is going to report what sells, i.e.- Controversy (By the way their actually pretty moderate, here's their English website http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage). Thus this has been plastered all over the Middle East making our job that much tougher. The fact that so many on here think this is a good thing, makes me even more happy that instead of re-joining the NRA, I gave that money to the ACLU. The fact that so many of you believe that might makes right, is truely horrifying. :barf:

May 3, 2005, 07:07 AM	#22
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	I think it is extremely unlikely that the command element was detached from what has been happening. But it is the interface with the civilians involved where it apparently branches out of the military and enters the realm of government. The other aspect is a reflection of all levels involved; one shouldn't need a Geneva Convention or "training" to feel some revulsion at the idea of comitting sexually or other perverted and violent acts against people. No matter what their alleged crimes are. Human beings have consciences which are usually quite effective - unless they are desensitized and numbed.

May 3, 2005, 07:42 AM	#23
kjm Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 1,871	UT: "GIGEM!!!!" That being said, our ability to win hearts and minds was damaged beyond repair when in 1991, we sat back and watched Sadam's troops roll into Nasyria and begin a murder and genocide spree that took the lives of over 300,000 in and around that town. The reason I don't believe that any of these Privates were the brains behind this is that I've heard that photos were used to bribe these Arab men into becoming informants. Tell us the information we want to hear or we'll show these pictures around your neighborhood of you being dominated by a woman. In a macho culture that makes Latino macho culture look almost feminine, it would appear that this would be worse than death. Such a good technique for getting information was not the idea of a bunch of West Virginia bumpkins whose highest aspirations were to work at the local prison. I don't believe they understood the Arab culture enough to figure it out. I believe that some controlled deeds eventually led to the breakdown of all order and discipline and they continued to have fun with it. War makes you bored. If the worst torture you engage in is making inmates watch you make whoopee with your boyfriend, then I guess I'd want to give her an article 15 and reduction, not prison. All things told- what was happening there was a whole lot better than what was happeing three months before we captured the prison. It was not so much a breakdown of discipline as a controlled process IMO. When your attorney says to just fess up and take responsibility in lieu of an extra decade in prison, you'll fess up. __________________ COME AND TAKE IT!!!