Warning shots where into, how do bullets behave

[Jungle Work]

PB,
Intelligent and well thought out response, unlike some of the imature and dogmatic responses, cause I've read it in a book or seen it on TV. I know most of the Heros who post on this board have never looked a booger in the face and their postings are mental masturbation excersises for them.

The best one I love is "I was taught that way at the REAL KILLER School I attended". Sweet Jesus, save us from Wanna Be's.

Jungle Work

[U.F.O.]

Jungle Work,

You and Para Bellum go ahead and break most of the laws of the land and ignore advice from the best minds in self-defense training. Since you've looked so many boogers in the face and graduated from the school of "Wanna Be's" so long ago, I would imagine it would be difficult for you to correct any misconceptions that exist in your philosophy. I'm gonna bail on this thread now because I don't like arguing with stubborn people who are wrong and won't admit it. The pay is poor. My appeal to anyone reading this post who is considering formal handgun training is to find competent instruction and learn the right way to carry and handle yourself in life threatening situations. Don't blindly take the advice of people on internet chat rooms, mine or anyone elses. Good luck in the future with your warning shots. Hope they bounce in a good direction for you and the innocents who unfortunately cross your path. Best.

U.F.O.

[JohnKSa]

Why do you think that the body of a 12 year old would stop my 9mm EMFJ+p bullets more reliably than the earth in a park I know?

Bodies don't contain rocks for one thing. I've never heard of a single instance of a bullet ricocheting off of a person and causing an injury. Also, while the bullet may not STOP in a small human, that doesn't mean that a significant amount of it's energy hasn't been absorbed. So even if it goes through, its wounding power has been significantly reduced.

And, MOST importantly, the odds are pretty good that if you don't shoot until you really need to, you might not shoot at all. After all, the vast majority of defensive gun uses don't involve a discharge. The whole point of warning shots is that people feel that they can fire a warning shot and suffer fewer repercussions. That's going to make them feel freer about discharging their firearms when they shouldn't.

The point of carrying or owning a self-defense firearm is to make you and others around you safer. Firing warning shots endangers others around you and is therefore exactly contrary to the reason one carries in the first place.

[Jungle Work]

John,
You might look to the Ruby Ridge Murder for what bullets do when they hit people and then hit others. Just a suggestion.

ufo,
Sweet heart, I spent 23 months in ground combat in the Airborne Infantry in the Republic of South Vietnam (68-70). I spent 33 years in LE working at every thing from a National Park Ranger, Police Patrolman, Detective, and a Chief of Police. That don't make me smarter than anybody else, but just for the record,
I guess that's the definition of a Wanna Be in your book.
Sonny, tell us how you not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. Give it a try Sweet heart, were all ears. Tell us about the firefights you've been in, tell about the gun battles you've been engaged in during your most dangerous arrest. Two bit punks make me want to puke.

BTW Sonny in thirty three years of LE I never fired a warning shot, but now I a civilian and I don't have any lawyer police to determine what I do and don't do. The incident I described happened to an officer who went into a home on a domestic call on a disorderly juvenile and upon entering the bedroom was confronted by a 12 year old girl who had a butcher knife in her hand. Her mother was in the bed room and the girl was a nut case and advanced on the officer. He fired a round into a water bed to stop her. Maybe I would have shot her, maybe I wouldn't. He controlled the situation. She stopped and put down the knife. One thing about not being a snot nosed kid, the older you get in life, the more you learn that there are few absolutes. You might look to LAPD for those situations in which an Officer shoot a 12 or 13 year old, justified or not. And since you know it all, maybe you know that most all officers involved in a shooting of a child leave LE within the year.

Jungle Work

[U.F.O.]

As I said earlier and absolutely nothing has been presented here to alter the truth of it:

"I don't think any palm trees are in imminent danger."

I don't care if your LE career included swapping spit with J. Edgar Hoover.....SWEETHEART.....if you're encouraging people to fire warning shots, you're just.....plain.....wrong. If you don't agree, you're wrong twice.

U.F.O.

[Jungle Work]

ufo,
I'm still waiting to hear about your Life EXPERIENCES, Sweet heart. Don't be afraid or embarrased, tell us all, were waiting. Or is it that you just Talk the talk, because you have never Walked the Walk?

I saw it on TV?
I read about it in a book?
I was trained by a Mall Nnja to do this?
I'll graduate from High School next year.
Which is it, Sweetheart?

Jungle Work

[U.F.O.]

It hurts you being wrong.....doesn't it? Having trouble finding ANY reputable, civilian, self-defense professional, anywhere in the country, who'll back up your warning shots are wonderful mantra? You never did much debating during all those years of serial law enforcement jobs.....did ya? My background has exactly zero bearing on the issue on the table right now. Whether or not it's advisable for civilians to utilize warning shots in personal self-defense. If you can't produce collaberating opinion from ANYONE, then all you're doing by asking questions of me is "farting in the wind" to deflect scrutiny from your own erroneous opinions. Put up or shut up. Show us someone respected in the industry who agrees with you. We're waiting.

U.F.O.

[bci4usa]

What is important to keep in mind at the time of need to use “deadly force” is speed is everything and so is accuracy.

When you're gun is out it's time to cancel Christmas. In most states it's Illegal for you to give a warning shot and you will get you locked up if you do. I believe it reckless conduct, risk to public safety just to name a few that come to mind.

I speak form experience and I can tell you that shooting a person is not easy ever if you a hundred percent correct.

This is what happened to me.
When I was working as an Atlanta housing authority officer I was walking around projects on foot doing foot patrol. Why I did this job was because at this time I thought about getting in to law enforcement and hand an application in with several different departments.
Well as on foot patrol with a dumb ass partner (the fag ran at the time it shots got fired) was walking to the bath room and we walked right in to a shooing, a 18 year old kid thought it was funny to kill a 16 year old kid because he would not let him ride his motor cycle. Well as this 18 year old started shooting this kid he seen us and just kept firing at us. Well I hit the ground and got my gun out and started firing back and hitting the gun men. I fired 6 shots, 4 hit the scum bag, 3 in the chest 1 in the head hit right in the nose and the bullet came out the other side. 2 of the chest shots did go through and through, yes I missed twice.
So this 18 year old had no chance in living and still to this day I have mixed feelings about it.
The first thing when the police arrived they asked me what happened and the uniform cops said ok no problem but I need you’re gun, so I gave it to him and pulled out my back up and put it in my holster. Uniform was cool and said you did what you had too to win and go home.
Well when homicide showed up, totally different.
They asked what happened, so I tell the guy, ok you got to give me you’re gun I said the uniform officer had the weapon used, he said that is ok and nice to know but he can’t have me armed because I am a suspect in an homicide and he was not asking aging.
Well I take a ride down town and guess what, 6 hrs latter I was free to go.
When I got down town he detective asked me write down what happened and as I was writing a detective wanted me to tell him what happened while I was writing. This happened like 3 or 4 times, I had to write down 3 different statements and must have told the story to 4 different detectives. They all asked me did I try to give the gunmen a chance to drop the weapon, and did I use all reasonable means not to use deadly force. I said yeah as he’s shooting at me I said please stop, not. I said he was shooting at me I defended my life and that was it. Well at the end of 6 hrs of them trying to trip me up I got ok go home hears you gun back sorry for any inconvenience. I asked the detective where the gun I used is and he said I won’t get that back for some time it has to be sent out to the GBI and they have to do a test to make shore that was the one that killed him. I said I told you that.
Point is it is nothing anyone wants to go though and more times then not I will be just that big of a shock when you will have to use deadly force.
The police are going to put you thought some crap. I did get my gun back 6 weeks later and I get many offers on the weapon for my friend, He has offered me 1,200.00 for my sig p229 in 40 cal with night sights and 4 12 rounder mags . I keep telling him no. when he hits $1,500.00 ok then I will sell.

[JohnKSa]

You might look to the Ruby Ridge Murder for what bullets do when they hit people and then hit others

I suppose that's useful information if you're carrying a rifle for self-defense. A pistol loaded with a decent self-defense round is going to penetrate about 12 inches of human. Even an ideal shot on a small human is going to use up a good percentage of those inches. In addition, even if you get an exit, an expanded round is less likely to penetrate walls and/or ricochet.

Clearly, there are cases when a warning shot can have the desired effect. You've given a good example. BUT, that is NOT the issue. The issue is whether or not it's PRUDENT to fire a warning shot. I'll repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. I have never seen a single self-defense authority recommend warning shots and I have seen a good number of them argue against warning shots.

If you are 100% sure you've got a good backstop, I suppose that's one thing. On the other hand, even with a good backstop, if the warning shot is ineffective, you've wasted things (a bullet and a few seconds) that you may shortly need desperately. If you DON'T have a backstop that you're 100% sure of, that makes it a no brainer.

Never launch a bullet unless:

1. You are 100% sure of your backstop.
OR
2. Your life is in immediate danger if you don't fire at your attacker.

[Jungle Work]

John,
Never launch a bullet unless:
1. You are 100% sure of your backstop.
OR
2. Your life is in immediate danger if you don't fire at your attacker.

A very true statement, I would not advocate that most folks ever consider firing a warning shot, but there might be that one in a million situation that justifies firing a warning shot. To totally discount that is stupid.

I would not advocate that the average person carry a semi auto hand gun.
Most folks don't pratice enough with their pistols and the problems that can arise with a SA. I shoot a couple of time a week or more, I know folks that have CHLs and they don't pratice once a year. The mindset of police who are shooters and civilians who are shooters are different than most folks who figure that shooting a gun once or twice a year is sufficient to stay profficient. How many people do you know who don't even sight in their deer rifle before hitting the field?

Jungle Work

[Jungle Work]

ufo's quote of the day:
My background has exactly zero bearing on the issue on the table right now.

That says it all son. Something that we can agree on is that you have no experience or knowledge of the subject. Sonny, as far as somebody in the
Industry backing me up, unless there going to be holding my hand in front of the Grand Jury I'll trust my own experiences and judgement before I trust some of the mall ninja's books you have read.

bci,
It never easy to take a life, more so in civilian LE. Every thing you did or did not do is going to be examined by several goups and as you say, even when you know your 100% right, there will still be those who have no knowledge of policy and procedure who will try to second guess you.

Jungle Work

[U.F.O.]

We're still waiting.

U.F.O.

[U.F.O.]

We're still waiting.

The reason we're still waiting is there's not a swinging d... out there who agrees with you.

U.F.O.

[Jungle Work]

ufo,
Are you implying that I should look in some of the Mall Ninja books you read to justify my opinion? Besides you having no knowledge or experience on the subject, you must be out of your frickin' mind. Sonny, you need to grow up and see some of the world and have some life experiences. Living at home with mom and dad does not broaden ones experiences and views of what really happens in this old world. You want to do some research, have at it.

A word of advice, while your waiting, don't hold your breath. This is not a debating club for the dweebs at high school. Sweet Jesus, save us from the Wanna be's.

Jugnel Work

[U.F.O.]

Dear Jugnel (aka Mr. Warning Shot)

You're a scream and it's been fun. I'll do the research and if I ever find anyone with an IQ higher than toe jam who encourages warning shots I'll report it back to the board. A word of advice to you.....don't hold your breath on this one either. U.F.O. signing out.

U.F.O.

[JohnKSa]

there might be that one in a million situation

Hard to say that's not true.

However, saying that "there might be that one in a million situation that justifies firing a warning shot" is very different from advocating warning shots.

I think it is virtually never prudent to fire a warning shot. Even under circumstances where it is safe (perfect backstop handy), one is wasting valuable resources at a time when they may become critical.

I'll stop just short of saying that one should NEVER fire a warning shot since, as you point out it's impossible to evaluate every possible situation ahead of time, but I do think that it's never necessary and probably always a bad idea.

[bci4usa]

Check the laws in you’re state.
In more states than not, you will got to jail for a warring shot even if you are cleared in the shooting.

A warning shot kills an innocent person or in most cases the gun owner himself.

The gun is not a toy and you don’t pull it to show, you pull it to defend you’re life. You don’t pull you’re gun and give a warning shot because at that time you’re attacker can shot you, the only time you pull a gun on anyone or pull the trigger is to cancel Christmas.
:barf:

[seb5]

Wow, this thread got hot. The funny thing is I think most everyone involved pretty much agrees. Sometimes you've to play devils advocate and look at all sides of the question. I would never reccommend a warning shot in civilian law enforcement or CCW, it's not legal in many locales anyway. However, I can't say there would NEVER be a time when I would'nt do it. That's a pretty strong statement, NEVER.

I also think it's interesting to read some of our Austrian attorneys questions and posts. It's obviously a different environment over there when an attorney is advocating warning shots. If he were here I'd say he was trying to increase his business .

[Para Bellum]

allow me to summarize, since I started this thread:

1. My question has not been answered yet, because nobody had any ballistic data on Hydra-shok or EMFJ 9x19mm bullets fired into a street or sidewalk.

2. Some gave thoughtful and wise posts and

3. Some here apparently carry a gun and can't even read

Jungle Work,
You and Para Bellum go ahead and break most of the laws of the land and ignore advice from the best minds in self-defense training.

I have no idea what this extra terrestrian ("UFO"?) is talking about.
By the way. Nobody who has a brain of his own need to rely on other "authorities". If something is smart and works, so it is and does. The fact that you have a "Jeff Cooper"-stamp on anything doesn't make it wise or useful. The content, not the source or cover counts.

Also, while the bullet may not STOP in a small human, that doesn't mean that a significant amount of it's energy hasn't been absorbed. So even if it goes through, its wounding power has been significantly reduced.

same applies to a bullet after it has been deformed and changed direction by something like a street ect, I asume. In Germany there have been of innocent bystanders getting killed because (well placed) 9x19mm police bullets overpenetrated.

ufo,
Sweet heart, I spent 23 months in ground combat in the Airborne Infantry in the Republic of South Vietnam (68-70). I spent 33 years in LE working at every thing from a National Park Ranger, Police Patrolman, Detective, and a Chief of Police. That don't make me smarter than anybody else, but just for the record,

I turly enjoyed this one :-))

The incident I described happened to an officer who went into a home on a domestic call on a disorderly juvenile and upon entering the bedroom was confronted by a 12 year old girl who had a butcher knife in her hand. Her mother was in the bed room and the girl was a nut case and advanced on the officer. He fired a round into a water bed to stop her. Maybe I would have shot her, maybe I wouldn't. He controlled the situation. She stopped and put down the knife.

very useful information. When I fired my warning shot, it would have been justified to kill the dogs. But I was not neccessary. The situation could be controlled otherwise. The place I fired into was totally safe in my judgment. And that is all you have in a fire-or-not situation: your own judgment.

UFO said: if you're encouraging people to fire warning shots, you're just.....plain.....wrong.

Please read what you talk about: Wo encouraging people to fire warning shots here and how exactly?!

Having trouble finding ANY reputable, civilian, self-defense professional, anywhere in the country, who'll back up your warning shots are wonderful mantra?

I assume you always have your cell-phone in a standing open line to "a reputable, civilian, self-defense professional, anywhere in the country," and if you feel the need of drawing you get their advice before. Maybe that's why all the secret-service people have these little earphones?

Clearly, there are cases when a warning shot can have the desired effect. You've given a good example. BUT, that is NOT the issue. The issue is whether or not it's PRUDENT to fire a warning shot.

I agree with the first sentence. But not with the rest. I am sorry if I didn't post the question the way I ment to ask it: I wanted to gather knowledge on bullet behavoir (9x19mm, EMFJ, Hydra-Shok) on different warning-shot targets. That has not been answered yet (really), but would be the basis, for the decision whether a warning shot can be prudent.

Never launch a bullet unless:
1. You are 100% sure of your backstop.
OR
2. Your life is in immediate danger if you don't fire at your attacker.

I fully agree. And I still wonder, how an 9x19mm EMFJ or HydraShok would behave fired onto...

I also think it's interesting to read some of our Austrian attorneys questions and posts.

Thank you. :-)

It's obviously a different environment over there when an attorney is advocating warning shots.

I still am not aware of advocating warning shots neither did Jungle Work (a fine gentleman as I have learned here, by the way). What we did say, is that a warning shot might be a smart choice under certain cirumstances. The truth is rarely pure and never simple (Oscar Wilde). So the circumstances are the issue of this post. The 12year old mentally disordered kid with a butcher's knive and a water-bed in reach was a perfect example for a warning shot. As other scenarios would be against a warning shot.

If he were here I'd say he was trying to increase his business.

That one made me smile. :-) I am sorry, I do business, corporate and civil law only. No crime and no divorce.


Thanks everybody for the thoughts and time. Stay save and beware of the Mall-Nijas :-))))))))

[U.F.O.]

Para Bellum,

Give it a break. Warning shots are against the law in most of the U.S. Maybe not in Europe, which could be why you're ignorant on that subtle point. Warning shots are neither wise nor useful. The reason no one has answered your original question about any ballistic data on Hydra-shok or EMFJ 9x19mm bullets fired into a street or sidewalk is probably because no one cares. Toodles.

U.F.O.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Was it actully inside of the bar? If it was outside, then surely the use of his weapon to aid someone in danger would have been a wiser choice.

Someone had accosted him inside the bar but was in the process of leaving. The bartender (a former friend) ran outside with his handgun, saw a police car, and fired into the air to get their attention. He was promptly arrested. Given the circumstances, I cannot fault the arrest. My former friend is no rocket scientist.

[Jungle Work]

ufo,
Come to Texas son, if you can use deadly force, you can fire a warning shot.

Bottom line sonny, If you will never, never ever fire a warning shot, GREAT.
Just don't try to lay your lame reasoning off on the rest of us.

Jungle Work

[Para Bellum]

Give it a break. Warning shots are against the law in most of the U.S. Maybe not in Europe, which could be why you're ignorant on that subtle point.

OK. Since you are the law expert here (I only have a Master's of Laws fron NYU [and that is in the USA, right], another Master of Laws from Vienna and a Doctor's...) please educate us where and on what legal basis exactly a "warning shot" would be illegal?

I am curious.

You are looking for a higher authority to guide you. Simple answers to the complicated world your living in.

against the law in most of the U.S

by the way so is:
- bathing two babies in one tub in Los Angeles
- taking a bath on sunday in Boston/MA
- saving women form a burning house in Missouri unless they are fully dressed
- dancing in public in lancaster
- catching fish with a lasso in Tennessee
- spitting onto the sidewalk in Viginia
- to spit before sexual intercourse in Alabama
- owning more than two dildos in one houshold in Arizona
- having sex in any other than the "missonary-stance" in Florida or Washington D.C.
- Oral sex is illegal in 28 states of the USA
- etc, etc, etc

The shere fact that somethin "is the law" doesn't make is smart. Or did you think that the 10-round-magazine-limit was smart just because it was "the law". And by the way, if any such law existed: I'd rather break the law and kill a waterbed instead of killing a mentaly disorderd kid.

[U.F.O.]

"Just don't try to lay your lame reasoning off on the rest of us"

US? Who is US? You got a mouse in your pocket or something? In case you ain't been keeping up with current events lately, pal, the only US around these parts who supports your opinion is the guy from Europe. You got you a nice little majority of two working here! Good job!

U.F.O.

[Para Bellum]

so you are right because those who agree with you are more than those who don't. I assume you eat excrement because 10.000 flies can't be wrong?
And the earth actually was a disc until more people believed it is a ball?
This starts getting fun. I'll hand the keyboard over to my 3year old kid...