Daughter Flinching

Nathan · April 18, 2024, 12:00 PM

My daughter is working on her shooting to move towards her CCW license. She has shot 22 rifles and AR’s in the past and done ok. Those are hard to CCW.

So, without my guidance, she bought a Springfield Hellcat. She liked the longer mags for a better grip and shorter mags for carry.

It has a decent, but probably 6.5lb trigger.

When she shoots, she either stokes the trigger too fast or too slow. This combines with some weird grip loosening which causes the front sight to drop like 2 foot POI shift at 7 yards.

Oddly, my 45 auto 1911’s trigger allowed her to hit a paper plate, but it looked like she was going to drop the gun.

Essentially as she squeezes better, her grip loosens to limp grip levels….like almost dropping gun in recoil.

Anybody see this? Tips?

**4V50 Gary** · April 18, 2024, 12:34 PM

Ball and dummy with DA revolver. Put a coin on the end of the barrel too (dry fire only with snap caps at home). She should be able to squeeze the trigger until hammer drops w/out having the coin fall off. At home she can also use the rubber tipped pencil against a card board box. She'll see when she flinches.

If nothing else, have her take up archery to help her with her follow through. I couldn't do well with a handgun until I took archery.

**44 AMP** · April 18, 2024, 03:14 PM

There is no micro compact pistol that is a good choice for a beginning pistol shooter.

Simply put, they are more difficult to learn to use well than larger pistols. IF she likes the gun, fine, hang on to it, but get her practicing with something that doesn't have as steep a learning curve.

Get her well grounded in the fundamentals of grip, trigger control, aiming, etc, on something easier to use, THEN have her move to the Hellcat when she's better prepared to be able to use it.

Too much, too soon created flinching, and once established, its tough to eliminate. Good Luck!

Nathan · April 18, 2024, 05:50 PM

Interesting ideas. I’m not sure how well a full size gun would even fit her hand. I do have a S&W 19 4”, 340 or 36 3” we could try….ill bet she struggles to reach the DA.

She may have a Glock she can try. We’ll see.

I’m more interested in 2 things. Why does her hand relax when pulling the trigger? Why does she struggle to feel the wall correctly? I’m not sure I can answer those questions..

The Verminator · April 18, 2024, 06:53 PM

A Glock 19 will do.

Have her pull the trigger with a quick smooth pull while keeping the sights in correct alignment.

Teach her to say "SMOOTH" with each pull.

Practice X 100.

Maybe as she improves she'll be able to use the smaller gun.

If not.......maybe sticking with the Glock 19 will be the best outcome.

**44 AMP** · April 19, 2024, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Why does her hand relax when pulling the trigger?

Possibly for the same reason some people squeeze the grip harder when pulling the trigger, Until you have practiced enough to master the skill of separating the grip from the trigger pull properly your whole hand tries to work together.

Same kind of thing, just in the opposite direction. I'd say she's focusing on the trigger pull and the rest of her hand is not "told" to maintain a proper grip.

Its a training thing, in general terms.

What "wall" are you referring to? specifically

Nathan · April 19, 2024, 04:28 AM

Quote:

What "wall" are you referring to? specifically

Trigger pull “wall”. The point as the trigger is squeezed just before it breaks.

**4V50 Gary** · April 19, 2024, 08:22 AM

I don't think that changing guns helps. It's a mental thing and that's why I suggest DA or at least a DA/SA pistol with a snap cap.

tangolima · April 19, 2024, 10:51 AM

Focusing on front sight will help.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Schlitz 45 · April 19, 2024, 11:46 AM

Here's some very good simple advise from someone that knows what their talking about
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

Recycled bullet · April 19, 2024, 11:53 AM

I would recommend practicing shooting at targets with a double action revolver and seeing if trigger control can be practiced and improved. This is more of a diagnostic tool because if the flinching occurs with plus p loads but does not occur with wad cutters then clearly the problem is noise and recoil affecting control.

Also I would recommend using earplugs inside the earmuffs because a lot of flinching that happens is because the loud noise of gunfire combined with recoil causes a startle reflex. Both of those factors are compounded with a short barrel hellcat.

I would also recommend one of those grip strength exercisers that has individual springs for each separate finger you can find it in a golf shop or probably Amazon. The weakest one is the blue one and the strongest one is the gray one . Start off with the blue one. The idea being to strengthen the hand and increase articulation through learning strength and independent control for each finger. There are no downsides to having stronger more articulate fingers.

Nathan · April 19, 2024, 03:14 PM

Well, it’s interesting. It seems like there is some timidness on her part. Then she focuses on trigger pull, this causes grip changes.

Really, I think she needs to hold the gun first through pulling the trigger however she pulls it. Then focus on the pull to the wall, pull through the wall method. Then finally add in using sight alignment to tell her how her grip & pull are working.

georgehwbush · April 19, 2024, 03:34 PM

well you are the dad, and you know better that any of us what she needs.

with rifles i like to have the shooter hand me the weapon; i load either a live round or a blank/empty and hand it back to them; then let them take aim; and set a penny on the barrel. tell them the penny should not fall off if it's a blank.

not sure how that would work for a pistol, i'm not a pistol guy. but it sure show's rifle shooters that they really are flenching when they don't think they are...

good luck with your lessons Nathan.

Nathan · April 19, 2024, 05:10 PM

Quote:

well you are the dad, and you know better that any of us what she needs.

I am the dad, but thoroughly confused. I appreciate any and all help!

PzGren · April 19, 2024, 06:44 PM

Well, you are the dad that is there. You got plenty of advice so far and I am far away but I have a vague feeling that she does not hold the gun correctly. She has to get a high grip, grip the gun hard until she starts to tremble and then reduce the grip strength to about 60%. She will have a firm hold then if she has sufficient hand strength. Even with very, very poor trigger control she should then hit a paper plate at 7 yards.

You have to concentrate on the basics and relay them to her. Dummy and life round drills, watching her. That is your job.

FITASC · April 19, 2024, 07:13 PM

If, as others have mentioned there seems to be hesitation, fear of noise and recoil, perhaps having her shoot a similar sized .22 might help

zukiphile · April 19, 2024, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan

I am the dad, but thoroughly confused. I appreciate any and all help!

I'm 6'2" and 100kg, but I can flinch like a teenaged girl.

Trying to learn anything about shooting while fighting the urge to push against the recoil before it pushes against me is essentially impossible.

I've taught several girls to shoot a pistol, including my younger daughter, and I've always started with a bunch of dry fire off range instruction so they can ask questions and demonstrate an understanding of the basic rules. Then the range sessions are only with 22lr until they are comfortable.

There's usually a sort of hump they have to get over. Amazing as it might seem to you or me, looking stupid is one of their foremost anxieties. Once they have confidence that comes from proficiency and having mastered the basics, they can begin working on thinking about what they are doing, learning from it and improving accuracy.

After all that, they can make pretty good progress with centerfire. The apprehension they would have at the loud report and violent recoil is buried beneath a foundation of technique on which they focus.

I've used full sized 22lrs, a Ruger 22/45 or Buckmark.

stagpanther · April 19, 2024, 11:32 PM

My biggest problem with handguns--especially semi-autos--is that I'm always tempted to fire them quickly--making it harder for me to concentrate on good technique.

**44 AMP** · April 19, 2024, 11:41 PM

Our daughters can be a source of tremendous pride and sometimes amazement.

I taught my daughter to shoot with .22s, revolver and semis, and of course rifles. Worked up to centerfires after that. She did fine, but wasn't all that interested. Figured she'd ask for more if she was, she never did.

Fast forward a bit, her then boyfriend wanted to do some shooting, so we did, him, her, and me. Old fence post at about 15yds, S&W Model 28 loaded with .38s, He hit a couple times hit close with the rest. Gets her to shoot it, she does the same. He wants to try magnums, so I loaded it with some. He shot about the same, but was enthused with the blast and recoil, my daughter is working on our picnic lunch.

He says "honey, you got to try this!!" she's like "I'm busy..."
No, you REALLY got to try this!!
ok, FINE...
she comes over, takes the reloaded gun and gets really "focused". Six shots, every single one blows chunks off the post. Hands the gun back, and asks, can I go back to making the sandwiches now??
I nodded. He just stood there with his mouth open...
I suggested it wouldn't be a good idea to get her mad at him...he slowly nodded...(Proud Dad moment!!)

My daughter is one of those people who can do about anything well without seeming to try, but when she decides to really focus, she goes from competent to hyper competent about most things, and shooting was one of them.

Your daughter is her own person and will do things her own way. Sometimes suggestion is better than instruction. Sometimes, even the best advice just can't come from Dad, because you are DAD.

You mention she can't seem to "find the wall" why does she need to?? You've taught her how the gun works, let her find her own path for while. If she's getting good hits, there is no "wrong". If not, eventually she'll want to do better and seek out techniques that will do that for HER.

If you know any lady shooters, have her talk with them. Sometimes, the exact same advice, coming from someone who isn't DAD gets through better.

Good Luck!

AL45 · April 20, 2024, 08:01 PM

Good advice and story, 44 AMP. I taught my sons, daughters and wife to shoot. None of them ever seemed to flinch. I didn't either until I decided to load up some "Ruger Only" .45 colt loads andthen developed a slight flinch. Then I decided I needed a .454 Casull and it become much more than a slight flinch. For me, it is all in my head. I spent a week focusing on the front sight and feeling the trigger at the same time while dry firing. I know I was gripping the gun firmly, but I only concentrated on front sight and trigger squeeze. At the end of the week I went to the range and tried it with live ammo. every shot from 15 and 20 yards was center of mass instead of low and left. As one fella on here suggested to me a few months ago, good hearing protection also helps.

riggins_83 · April 21, 2024, 11:50 AM

Dry fire practice with snap caps is your friend, 100%. Use an indicator target, too, such as https://www.bullseyepistol.com/wheel.gif .

ocharry · April 23, 2024, 09:30 AM

i like the dry fire suggestions...and the electric target bullseye stuff too

but you know sometimes dads are too close....

i would try to video her shooting and then you two can watch it together and you can show her what she is doing wrong and when she is doing it.....that way she can see what she is doing wrong

i have employed a video camera several times when trying to help friends and family....it has never failed to help

my .02

ocharry

**4V50 Gary** · April 28, 2024, 09:07 AM

44 AMP raises a good point. Sometimes it's best not to have a male relative or BF to instruct a female.

fisherman66 · April 28, 2024, 10:02 AM

A steel double action revolver with light loads and a snap cap or two in it if a good place to start. A 22lr pistol isn’t too bad either. Once the brain realizes the noise and concussion aren’t hurting it’s time to move up a rung on the blast scale. Make it fun, not work and the process is easier….eg; gong not paper.

603Country · April 30, 2024, 05:39 PM

The OP’s situation with the daughter’s shooting appears to be exactly the problem a Son in Law had. He’d tug the barrel down every shot he fired. At 10 yards he didn’t even hit the silhouette target, but shot the ground in front. I tried everything I could think of to get him to quit doing that, but nothing worked. UNTIL he put a red laser on the pistol. When he shot it, he could plainly see the red dot on the target go straight down. After that he focused on keeping the red dot on the target, and he fixed his own problem. I never would have thought about a red laser. Put one on the daughter’s pistol.

April 18, 2024, 12:00 PM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,342	Daughter Flinching My daughter is working on her shooting to move towards her CCW license. She has shot 22 rifles and AR’s in the past and done ok. Those are hard to CCW. So, without my guidance, she bought a Springfield Hellcat. She liked the longer mags for a better grip and shorter mags for carry. It has a decent, but probably 6.5lb trigger. When she shoots, she either stokes the trigger too fast or too slow. This combines with some weird grip loosening which causes the front sight to drop like 2 foot POI shift at 7 yards. Oddly, my 45 auto 1911’s trigger allowed her to hit a paper plate, but it looked like she was going to drop the gun. Essentially as she squeezes better, her grip loosens to limp grip levels….like almost dropping gun in recoil. Anybody see this? Tips?

April 18, 2024, 12:34 PM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,855	Ball and dummy with DA revolver. Put a coin on the end of the barrel too (dry fire only with snap caps at home). She should be able to squeeze the trigger until hammer drops w/out having the coin fall off. At home she can also use the rubber tipped pencil against a card board box. She'll see when she flinches. If nothing else, have her take up archery to help her with her follow through. I couldn't do well with a handgun until I took archery. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 18, 2024, 03:14 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,901	There is no micro compact pistol that is a good choice for a beginning pistol shooter. Simply put, they are more difficult to learn to use well than larger pistols. IF she likes the gun, fine, hang on to it, but get her practicing with something that doesn't have as steep a learning curve. Get her well grounded in the fundamentals of grip, trigger control, aiming, etc, on something easier to use, THEN have her move to the Hellcat when she's better prepared to be able to use it. Too much, too soon created flinching, and once established, its tough to eliminate. Good Luck! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 19, 2024, 08:22 AM	#8
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,855	I don't think that changing guns helps. It's a mental thing and that's why I suggest DA or at least a DA/SA pistol with a snap cap. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 19, 2024, 03:34 PM	#13
georgehwbush Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2023 Location: down town USA Posts: 201	well you are the dad, and you know better that any of us what she needs. with rifles i like to have the shooter hand me the weapon; i load either a live round or a blank/empty and hand it back to them; then let them take aim; and set a penny on the barrel. tell them the penny should not fall off if it's a blank. not sure how that would work for a pistol, i'm not a pistol guy. but it sure show's rifle shooters that they really are flenching when they don't think they are... good luck with your lessons Nathan. __________________ "if you have a good shooting stance, you are not using cover correctly" father frog

April 18, 2024, 05:50 PM	#4
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,342	Interesting ideas. I’m not sure how well a full size gun would even fit her hand. I do have a S&W 19 4”, 340 or 36 3” we could try….ill bet she struggles to reach the DA. She may have a Glock she can try. We’ll see. I’m more interested in 2 things. Why does her hand relax when pulling the trigger? Why does she struggle to feel the wall correctly? I’m not sure I can answer those questions..

April 18, 2024, 06:53 PM	#5
The Verminator Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 349	A Glock 19 will do. Have her pull the trigger with a quick smooth pull while keeping the sights in correct alignment. Teach her to say "SMOOTH" with each pull. Practice X 100. Maybe as she improves she'll be able to use the smaller gun. If not.......maybe sticking with the Glock 19 will be the best outcome.

April 19, 2024, 10:51 AM	#9
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,859	Focusing on front sight will help. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

April 19, 2024, 11:46 AM	#10
Schlitz 45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2018 Location: Colorado Posts: 385	Here's some very good simple advise from someone that knows what their talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

April 19, 2024, 11:53 AM	#11
Recycled bullet Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2022 Posts: 345	I would recommend practicing shooting at targets with a double action revolver and seeing if trigger control can be practiced and improved. This is more of a diagnostic tool because if the flinching occurs with plus p loads but does not occur with wad cutters then clearly the problem is noise and recoil affecting control. Also I would recommend using earplugs inside the earmuffs because a lot of flinching that happens is because the loud noise of gunfire combined with recoil causes a startle reflex. Both of those factors are compounded with a short barrel hellcat. I would also recommend one of those grip strength exercisers that has individual springs for each separate finger you can find it in a golf shop or probably Amazon. The weakest one is the blue one and the strongest one is the gray one . Start off with the blue one. The idea being to strengthen the hand and increase articulation through learning strength and independent control for each finger. There are no downsides to having stronger more articulate fingers.

April 19, 2024, 03:14 PM	#12
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,342	Well, it’s interesting. It seems like there is some timidness on her part. Then she focuses on trigger pull, this causes grip changes. Really, I think she needs to hold the gun first through pulling the trigger however she pulls it. Then focus on the pull to the wall, pull through the wall method. Then finally add in using sight alignment to tell her how her grip & pull are working.

April 19, 2024, 06:44 PM	#15
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	Well, you are the dad that is there. You got plenty of advice so far and I am far away but I have a vague feeling that she does not hold the gun correctly. She has to get a high grip, grip the gun hard until she starts to tremble and then reduce the grip strength to about 60%. She will have a firm hold then if she has sufficient hand strength. Even with very, very poor trigger control she should then hit a paper plate at 7 yards. You have to concentrate on the basics and relay them to her. Dummy and life round drills, watching her. That is your job.

April 19, 2024, 07:13 PM	#16
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,452	If, as others have mentioned there seems to be hesitation, fear of noise and recoil, perhaps having her shoot a similar sized .22 might help __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

April 19, 2024, 11:32 PM	#18
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,860	My biggest problem with handguns--especially semi-autos--is that I'm always tempted to fire them quickly--making it harder for me to concentrate on good technique. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

April 19, 2024, 11:41 PM	#19
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,901	Our daughters can be a source of tremendous pride and sometimes amazement. I taught my daughter to shoot with .22s, revolver and semis, and of course rifles. Worked up to centerfires after that. She did fine, but wasn't all that interested. Figured she'd ask for more if she was, she never did. Fast forward a bit, her then boyfriend wanted to do some shooting, so we did, him, her, and me. Old fence post at about 15yds, S&W Model 28 loaded with .38s, He hit a couple times hit close with the rest. Gets her to shoot it, she does the same. He wants to try magnums, so I loaded it with some. He shot about the same, but was enthused with the blast and recoil, my daughter is working on our picnic lunch. He says "honey, you got to try this!!" she's like "I'm busy..." No, you REALLY got to try this!! ok, FINE... she comes over, takes the reloaded gun and gets really "focused". Six shots, every single one blows chunks off the post. Hands the gun back, and asks, can I go back to making the sandwiches now?? I nodded. He just stood there with his mouth open... I suggested it wouldn't be a good idea to get her mad at him...he slowly nodded...(Proud Dad moment!!) My daughter is one of those people who can do about anything well without seeming to try, but when she decides to really focus, she goes from competent to hyper competent about most things, and shooting was one of them. Your daughter is her own person and will do things her own way. Sometimes suggestion is better than instruction. Sometimes, even the best advice just can't come from Dad, because you are DAD. You mention she can't seem to "find the wall" why does she need to?? You've taught her how the gun works, let her find her own path for while. If she's getting good hits, there is no "wrong". If not, eventually she'll want to do better and seek out techniques that will do that for HER. If you know any lady shooters, have her talk with them. Sometimes, the exact same advice, coming from someone who isn't DAD gets through better. Good Luck! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 20, 2024, 08:01 PM	#20
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 761	Good advice and story, 44 AMP. I taught my sons, daughters and wife to shoot. None of them ever seemed to flinch. I didn't either until I decided to load up some "Ruger Only" .45 colt loads andthen developed a slight flinch. Then I decided I needed a .454 Casull and it become much more than a slight flinch. For me, it is all in my head. I spent a week focusing on the front sight and feeling the trigger at the same time while dry firing. I know I was gripping the gun firmly, but I only concentrated on front sight and trigger squeeze. At the end of the week I went to the range and tried it with live ammo. every shot from 15 and 20 yards was center of mass instead of low and left. As one fella on here suggested to me a few months ago, good hearing protection also helps.

April 21, 2024, 11:50 AM	#21
riggins_83 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Wherever I may roam Posts: 1,506	Dry fire practice with snap caps is your friend, 100%. Use an indicator target, too, such as https://www.bullseyepistol.com/wheel.gif . __________________ l've heard police work is dangerous. Yes, that's why l carry a big gun. Couldn't it go off accidentally? l used to have that problem. What did you do about it? l just think about baseball. -Leslie Nielsen

April 23, 2024, 09:30 AM	#22
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 687	i like the dry fire suggestions...and the electric target bullseye stuff too but you know sometimes dads are too close.... i would try to video her shooting and then you two can watch it together and you can show her what she is doing wrong and when she is doing it.....that way she can see what she is doing wrong i have employed a video camera several times when trying to help friends and family....it has never failed to help my .02 ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

April 28, 2024, 09:07 AM	#23
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,855	44 AMP raises a good point. Sometimes it's best not to have a male relative or BF to instruct a female. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 28, 2024, 10:02 AM	#24
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,688	A steel double action revolver with light loads and a snap cap or two in it if a good place to start. A 22lr pistol isn’t too bad either. Once the brain realizes the noise and concussion aren’t hurting it’s time to move up a rung on the blast scale. Make it fun, not work and the process is easier….eg; gong not paper. __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

April 30, 2024, 05:39 PM	#25
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,000	The OP’s situation with the daughter’s shooting appears to be exactly the problem a Son in Law had. He’d tug the barrel down every shot he fired. At 10 yards he didn’t even hit the silhouette target, but shot the ground in front. I tried everything I could think of to get him to quit doing that, but nothing worked. UNTIL he put a red laser on the pistol. When he shot it, he could plainly see the red dot on the target go straight down. After that he focused on keeping the red dot on the target, and he fixed his own problem. I never would have thought about a red laser. Put one on the daughter’s pistol.