Primer question

[cdoc42]

I searched under "small pistol primers" to see if this issue had previously been discussed, but I could not find it. If I'm repeating the issue, I apologize.

During the primer shortage, I bought 1000 Remington 1-1/2 small pistol primers which were new to me because I used 5-1/2's in the past. A warning is on the package that the 1-1/2 primers should not be used in .357, .357 Sig or .40 S&W as high pressure may pierce the primer and create a danger to the shooter.

That implies they are o.k. to use in .380 Auto, .38 special and 9mm. But I reviewed Lyman's 50th edition in the calibers and bullets that I use and listed the maximum CUP pressure associated with one of the several powders listed.

.380 Auto 90gr HC 16,300 CUP
.380 Auto 95gr FMJ 16,400 CUP
.38 Special 125gr JHP 16,700 and 18,300 (+p)

.357 Rem Mag 125gr JHP 44,100 CUP
9mm Luger 115gr JHP 32,500 CUP

It strikes me that the 9mm generates a pressure more associated with the .357 Mag than it does with the .38 Special and .380 Auto. I wonder why it is not also not recommended for use with the Remington 1-1/2 SPP.

Is anyone aware of any similar caution that might exist but has not been made public about using the Winchester small pistol primers?

[44 AMP]

If the maker (in this case, Remington) says "don't do that" then simply, don't do that. They do have some reason. It might be something we don't know about. it might just be CYA for the maker, but there is some reason.

The Winchester primers I have say on the box that they are for both standard and magnum loads, so no issues there....

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The Winchester primers I have say on the box that they are for both standard and magnum loads, so no issues there....

That's only for Winchester large pistol primers. Winchester's small pistol primers come in 2 flavors, standard and magnum.

With respect to the Remington 1 1/2 primers, you might find the article below of interest. Or not.

https://www.ssusa.org/content/reming...istol-primers/

[totaldla]

I've never seen that warning with Rem 11/2 primers and I've used a lot of them in 9mm and 40sw. They are a little hotter primer but I've never had a problem and I do tend to load my 40sw on the hot side.

[cdoc42]

74A95, thanks for the link to the article. That certainly addresses and answers my question. Bottom line, if you pierce a Remington 1-1/2 in your 9mm load, you shouldn't have done it, and don't repeat it. But avoid that risk by simply using the 5-1/2s.

totaldla, I would read 74's linked article, if I were you. But also take a look at the Remington box of 1000 size 1-1/2. The side of the box has a white arrow and a safety warning, and advice on calibers to avoid. The same warning is less obvious on the pack of 100- it is on the green side in small print.

[Nathan]

I think it comes down to a couple of things….

It sounds like the intent of the 1-1/2 was for lower pressure, smaller volume, fast burning powders. Remington’s warning is a bit to simple. I’ll bet it will handle 9mm 124 moderate titegroup loads due to small volume, moderate <30ksi pressure, and fast burn. Change to a 147gr AA#7 load and you will need a thicker primer.

My guess is the warning is not clear because there are factors they cannot specifically explain well to customers in layman’s terms like area under the burn P-T curve.

[cdoc42]

Maybe it would help if the warning simply said "Avoid using these small pistol primers in any published load recipe that exceeds XXX,000 CUP or XXX,000 PSI.

[Unclenick]

I wonder if the fact a lot of older guns with weakened springs shoot the lower pressure cartridges is a reason for the 1½ being made with a thinner cup to maximize sensitivity. Another possible reason is that when police wheel gun matches were still common, a lot of guys were getting mainsprings lightened for double-action speed shooting, and they needed a maximally sensitive primer for the weak springs. Or maybe it's just a legacy design that happens to suit those purposes. Why they didn't exclude full-power 9mm from the git-go, I don't know, but the box just says it's not for "high intensity pistol cartridges," so maybe you are supposed to figure out for yourself if your load qualifies as such.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

I wonder if the fact a lot of older guns with weakened springs shoot the lower pressure cartridges is a reason for the 1½ being made with a thinner cup to maximize sensitivity. Another possible reason is that when police wheel gun matches were still common, a lot of guys were getting mainsprings lightened for double-action speed shooting, and they needed a maximally sensitive primer for the weak springs. Or maybe it's just a legacy design that happens to suit those purposes.

The Remington 1 1/2 are not as sensitive as Federal Primers. Wheel-gunners use Federal primers for their well known sensitivity. In my hands, the Winchester small pistol primer is more sensitive than the Remington 1 1/2.

[Unclenick]

Federal has long been the go-to whenever someone running another brand is getting failures to fire. I am just trying to guess at a rationale for Remington producing the thin-cupped primers. It would be interesting to pick one of their engineer's brains about it.

[Nathan]

Maybe it would help if the warning simply said "Avoid using these small pistol primers in any published load recipe that exceeds XXX,000 CUP or XXX,000 PSI.

….because I’ll bet they handle 35ksi for a short period like fast burning powder in 9mm. I don’t know for sure.

[2ndtimer]

Another good question is why Remington offers their 6 1/2 small rifle primers? Like the Remington 1 1/2 small pistol primers, they are only suitable for low pressure rounds like the .22 Hornet. Since the vast majority of small rifle cartridges being loaded are high pressure (.223 Rem, 5,56 NATO), why does Remington continue to manufacture the 6 1/2 primers that are unsuitable for 95% of the cartridges being loaded? Logic dictates they should concentrate on their 7 1/2 small rifle primers to maximize their sales and profits. I can understand the viability of the 1 1/2 small pistol primers for use in .38 Special and .45 ACP since those low pressure handgun rounds are still in broad use and even supported by new gun sales. But why on earth would they devote resources to the declining number of low pressure rifles currently in use? It is easy to see why the “big R” went bankrupt. Their marketing department rivals the Denver Broncos front office in incompetence…

[Unclenick]

22 Hornet is famous for the bullet being unseated by the primer in an irregular fashion, producing a lot of velocity variation. Mild primers don't do it, and, indeed, a number of folks use pistol primers in this and other small cartridges (though probably not the 1½). So, there is a reason, in those particular cases, and probably in other very small-capacity cases, to have an extra mild primer available.

[akinswi]

Just Curious, Did anyone actually call or Email remington to ask them?

[Unclenick]

I thought it would be interesting to ask them about it, per my comment. I usually go to the NRA Annual Meetings (and will this year), with one object being to talk to technical people at the industry booths. Sometimes, you get just the right guy on the floor, and other times, you only find sales folk who don't have that kind of detail, though you can sometimes get the right name of the person you need to speak with or email from them. Blind calling, I find, usually gets you a technician, and sometimes they know what you want to know, and sometimes they don't, but they won't usually patch you through to anybody higher up.