Do You Have Any Drugs or Weapons in the Car?

[GunGeek]

"Do you have any drugs or weapons in the car?"

Yes officer, a pound of cocain and an unregistered uzi in the trunk..... right under the dead body.

[Smurfslayer]

Sounds like the People's Republic of Maryland...

Especially, the Maryland State Pricks... err Police... I had a friend that got a 'road side detention' by a rookie MSP about 10 years ago. It degenerated quickly into a contest of wills. They brought the drug dog, etc... 4 trooper cars later, and about 20 minutes he says ' I want a supervisor out here now, I have nothing to say without a lawyer present. I've complied with your requests for D/L, insurance, etc... you have no reason to suspect any criminal activity from my vehicle's appearance, ... arrest me, or release me AFTER your boss gets here." Then the rookie tried to get belligerent, made some threats, etc... and finally said you can go... My friend said,"oh no, we're here waitin' for the 1sg..., you can call for him, or I will".. finally he comes and my friend files a complaint - that morning, at 0230 ... I saw the report. Mr. Rookie ended up with a written reprimand.

Once it gets past 'may I have a warning, I've got a clean record', I've got little to say, except to be polite. We can all rant about how 'unfair' this is, etc... but the problem is that once in a while, some idiot consents to a vehicle search, and it yields 50 pounds of uncut cocaine...
Rather than pontificate about Constitutional rights, keep your vehicle clean & uncluttered and you're far less likely to be suspected in the 1st place...

[mrat]

Yup, each time a handgun is encountered during a traffic stop, even if it be legally cased and unloaded. You run the serial number.

Where do you get your information? You continue to say that officers must do this, always do that, etc. That is simply untrue. There is actually very little that officers MUST or ALWAYS do, this is called officer discretion.

No I (and every LEO I know) do not always run the serial number of a firearm I encounter. I evaluate the situation and decide whether to pursue any further investigation when a firearm is encountered. If, for example, it is a gangbanger in a residential neigborhood at 2:00 am you bet I am going to run the serial number. I would be derelect in my duties if I didn't. On the flip side, if it is a average Joe on their way to McDonalds with their family my response is: have a nice burger.

[Tropical Z]

What about the recent Supreme Court ruling that LEO's don't need a warrant to search a vehicle anymore?

[wolfman97]

labgrade wrote:

I don't doubt this stuff goes on. I'm just wondering where's the beef?

The beef comes in when they seize your car on suspicion of something. And here is how it goes.

They ask you the simple question. Nothing wrong with that, you say.

Then, whatever your answer is, they say it sounds fishy and nervous, thereby giving them (what they say is) cause to search your car. You don't think you have anything to hide, so no problem. Then they find the 1,000 dollars that you drew out of the bank so you could have some spending money on vacation. Nobody but a drug dealer would carry that much cash, they say, so they certainly call the drug dogs then.

when the drug dog comes, they claim that the dog smells drugs on your car and they seize the car. They don't find any actual drugs, mind you, they just say the dog smells them, so obviously the drugs must have been in your car at one time or another, meaning that you must be involved in the drug trade. It is then up to you to hire a lawyer to get your money and your car back. Note that your guilt or innocence is not an issue in that proceeding. Your property's guilt is the issue, and your property is presumed to be guilty because the cop who stopped you said your property was guilty.

Pretty incredible chain of events, you say? Not really. A couple of the major news shows have run features on several stretches of highway in the US where that routine is pulled all the time. One place in Louisiana was featured on the last one I saw. Also, a newspaper in Oklahoma reported that one of their local sheriffs had seized literally dozens of cars that way -- most of which mysteriously found their way into his hands or the hands of his friends after auction sales which netted prices far below blue book. As the paper reported, the sheriff had so many seized cars around his house that his dog couldn't find the front porch. At one point, the entire narcotics squad for the LA County Sheriff's Department was fired and 24 of them went to jail for basically looting the public with this routine. As one of the deputies testified, they seized fifteen million dollars just in cash one year, and not one cent of it was a legitimate bust. The California Bar Association reports that many police departments are dependent upon drug-related seizures for items of basic budget so there is tremendous incentive for cops to turn traffic stops into seizures, by whatever means. If they don't then, quite literally, they may lose their jobs.

Where does all this legal BS come from? From the same place that brings us most gun prohibition laws -- the war on some drugs.

[labgrade]

Oh, good grief.

I know abuses happen from time to time. I was only attempting to draw RR's comments out further to see what he had on his mind.

From the "tone" of his post, it seemed that he, himself had, shall we say, "an intersting stop" & I was just trying to dig a bit - wasn't much else going on in my life at the time, being 4AM & all .... insomnia sucks.

"where's the beef?" was an interogative regards anything specific he experienced, rather than just a general rant against the possibilities.

Get it?

[Coronach]

First, never heard of any place that would require its officers to ask that question.

Second, unless you are looking like someone they're after (it happens- I've pulled over many a car right after a robbery/shooting/stabbing that sure as heck looked like the people we wanted, but was actually a family on its way to church or something), the most that answering the question with an affirmative would generate is a follow-up question or two:

Cop: "Sir, do you have any weapons or drugs in the car."

Driver: "Yes, sir, I do."

Cop: "OK, what do you have and where is it located?"

Driver: "I have cold medicine in my suitcase and a rifle in the trunk."

Cop: "OK, thats fine. Please remain in your vehicle, I'll be back in a minute."

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from answering "None of your business." There is also nothing stopping the officer from requiring that you and your passengers wait outside of your vehicle for the duration of the traffic top, either (Pennsylvania v Mims and Maryland v Wilson). Your call.

Any follow-up requests to search can be met with a "No." I'm a cop, and if I was stopped and a seemingly out-of-the-blue request for a consent search was levelled at me, that would be my response...and I know that I have nothing to hide. I just don't want to stand around on the side of the road while someone else goes through my car, and hey, I don't have to, unless they have a warrant or can convince me that there is a good reason to consent.

Mike

[Mike Irwin]

Oh yeah, I forgot...

I've twice been stopped in Fairfax County, Virginia, both times for vehicle inspection sticker problems (One of these days I'll remember to get the car inspected BEFORE it's due!).

The first time I was unarmed, that was about 8 years ago.

The last time was last year. At that time I had an S&W Model 19 in a shoulder holster.

Neither time was I asked whether I had weapons or drugs in the car.

[Dagny]

Can't a person take the "Fifth" in response to such a question?
Or does doing automatically trigger "reasonable cause" for a search?

[wolfman97]

Can't a person take the "Fifth" in response to such a question?

Certainly.

Or does doing automatically trigger "reasonable cause" for a search?

Depends upon whether the cop wants your car.

[hammer4nc]

My personal experience: I've been stopped with rifles spread out on the the shelf behind the seat in a crew-cab, and ammo boxes, mags and loose ammo falling out of the glove box as I retrieved my registration (all clearly exposed by the officer's flashlight). Guess what? They never even commented on the weapons or ammo, much less requested a search. Sometimes, I feel kind of left out.

Bear in mind that these stops occurred out in the country, and a greying man and woman in a pickup doesn't exactly fit the "profile" of a narco-trafficking gang-banger. It's a disguise I have worked hard to cultivate over the years.

Judging from some of the responses, things are different in urban/border regions. I do have some serious concerns about the asset forfeiture/seizure stories related in this forum and elsewhere. I wonder how widespread the practice really is?

[RR]

The practices in CCW vs. Non-CCW States, big difference. Get stopped in the Loop in Chicago after 10:00 p.m., same as in VA? I started this thread after thinking how I would handle such a stop with one of my kids in the car coming back from the indoor range in a not so great part of town (just started the son). I teach my kids not to lie. Yea, use old f**ts don't raise suspicion. The risk to me because of my appearance and age of such a stop is probably very slight. Been stopped 2x in 8 years-both times got warnings. But times are a changing especially in some communities. The areas I am referring to, I do not believe are isolated examples. The LEOs on nights are young and aggressive. Their marching orders ARE to run the serial numbers. And they pride in getting consentual searches.
In a few years will I hear-"Dad, I was coming home from the bullseye match and I got stopped-license plate light was out. I was asked if I had any drugs or weapons-I was polite and respectful and told the officer yes, in the trunk cased and unloaded. He told me to open the trunk, so I did, etc., etc., etc. Dad what did I do wrong."

I wish the entire country was like what many of you have represent, but it ain't and it ain't gonna get better. I want don't want my kids to feel like they are quasi-criminals for having a firearm in the trunk. BTW, if I go to a parent teacher conference with a firearm in the trunk (cased, unload, no ammunition) and park on school property, and have not come directly from the range, or do not intend to leave and go directly to the range, I committed a criminal offense. Same with a cased, unloaded, and even broken non-firing BB gun!! "Legal logic"-Courts said it could be used as a club and thus a dangerous weapon!

Naw, they wouldn't charge that. Think again. In the spring of this year, the States Attorney charged a teenage with dangerous weapon on school property for having a broken pellet/bb pistol under the seat of the car-been there for over a year, broken for over a year.

BTW, youse guys/gals are the best-I don't post much, but I read everything you do!!!!

[bbrins]

When I was pulled over in Waldorf for a small crack in my windshield (it's been there for two years), I was on my way to the range in La Plata and I had five or six rifles in the bed of my truck in cases. When the officer got about to the rear bumper he paused and looked at the cases for a few seconds and read my bumper sticker. When he got to the cab, he asked for my papers and didn't even bother saying anything about them. I guess it would have sounded pretty dumb if he had to ask. Didn't even write up one of those repair tickets, just told me to get it fixed. No complaints here.

If asked, I would tell them to take a hike (in a nice way).

[papercut]

hammer4nc pontificated:
Bear in mind that these stops occurred out in the country, and a greying man and woman in a pickup doesn't exactly fit the "profile" of a narco-trafficking gang-banger. It's a disguise I have worked hard to cultivate over the years.

Glad to hear that you fill out the dress well.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Hey, RR, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

[RR]

Malone LaVeigh. Wow, deep, thought provoking, and relevant. Woo, I am out of breath. Please, any other comments?

[jimpeel]

When they ask you that simply say "No. What a strange question to ask in a traffic stop.

"You're the first cop to ever ask me that; do you have many people who carry drugs and guns or is this just a routine question these days that you ask everybody?"

Of course, here in CO we just answer "Pursuant to Colorado State law, I carry a firearm for lawful protection while traveling."

At this point he will either take possession during the duration of the stop or ask you to remain outside of the car.

[Coronach]

Can't a person take the "Fifth" in response to such a question?

You are under no compulsion to answer any such question. You under no compulsion to be polite. However, it is often worthwhile to pick your battles, you know?

Or does doing automatically trigger "reasonable cause" for a search?

Absolutely not. When asked what his probable cause to search was, the officer cannot say "he exercised his rights, so I knew something was up."

Well, he could- it just wouldn't go anywhere in court, and you would have the foundation layed for a very nice lawsuit. Contact KSFreeman for details.

Depends upon whether the cop wants your car.

Oh please. Your car ain't worth my job.

Now sure, if you get into one of those complete systemic corruption scenarios, all bets are off...but the question was what can the cop do legally.

Mike

[Blackhawk]

One thing to remember is to answer questions as though you were in court. (One reason is that your answer might well be read in court.) Anyway, it's usually a good idea to answer the question YOU understand is being asked. You can do that by repeating the question with your words clarifying the question.

Aspirin is a drug, and a tire iron is a weapon. So rephrase the question you're being asked: "Just for clarification, are you asking if I have any illegal drugs or weapons in the car?" The officer may say "Just answer my question!" So you say, "I don't understand your question. Do you mean do I have any illegal drugs or weapons in the car?"

In any event, the answer is "I do not have any illegal drugs or weapons in the car." The other answer is, "Yes I do mind, and no you may not search my car."

At all times be perfectly calm and polite.

[croyance]

This would have to vary from state to state.
You mention Chicago specifically. Beyond being a non-CCW state, they are very firearms unfriendly. No handguns allowed with Chicago itself. You need a special card to buy ammunition.
Wisconsin, where I grew up, is another CCW state. Milwaukee is just 90 miles north. About a decade ago, I was pulled over a lot. Liscense suspended twice and almost revoked for 5 years (no accidents). I was a young college student at the time, and I did inhale. Never once was I asked about having drugs in the car (yes) or weapons.
In my professional life there, I was pulled over once and the officer saw used targets in the backseat. He asked if I shot, and I said yes. Then he said "I don't like guns, they make me nervous". Never once asked me about having guns, no more lecture. He only gave me a warning for speeding.
Now a few things to keep in mind here. Wisconsin has a lot of hunters, even though it is a non-CCW state. They are not outright hostile to guns like New Jersey. Another is that, even in my younger, more unkempt days, I sound exactly like a well educated person from the suburbs. Like it or not, LEO's as well as everybody else judges by what they see. A LEO may not have seen a reason to ask. If I sounded like a punk from the inner city maybe things would have been different.
In answer to your question, I would answer honestly. The drugs are long gone from my life, and even in Chicago I do have the right of peacable journey.

[DadOfThree]

All of the police I have run into in Indiana have been very cool about my CCW. I have been stopped a few times and although I am not required to tell them I am carrying, I do it anyway. I hand him my license and permit at the same time and then I put my hands on top of the steering wheel. If the officer asks, I tell him I have a Walther P99 on my right hip and then I tell him if there are any other guns in the vehicle. I just don't want any surprises The only time I had an officer ask me to take out my carry gun was when he wanted to see it because he hadn't seen one before. Note: he asked very nicely if he could see it, didn't demand that I hand it over.

[Long Path]

mrat said:

No I (and every LEO I know) do not always run the serial number of a firearm I encounter. I evaluate the situation and decide whether to pursue any further investigation when a firearm is encountered. If, for example, it is a gangbanger in a residential neigborhood at 2:00 am you bet I am going to run the serial number. I would be derelect in my duties if I didn't. On the flip side, if it is a average Joe on their way to McDonalds with their family my response is: have a nice burger.

Pre-flipping-cisely.


Sure, I've run serial numbers. Suspicious vehicle stop? Maybe. Shots fired investigation? Probably. Aggravated Assault investigation? You bet. (Found a stolen Glock 22, too. ) Sometimes running the numbers is just good policework. Do abuses happen on occasion? Yes, I'm sorry to say that they certainly do.

But I'm even more sorry, as a police officer, to read that you feel that the abuse is S.O.P. and compulsory.

[TheeBadOne]

mrat, sounds like you are profiling, ie: picking on gangbangers and criminals just because of their lifestyle which puts them in conflict with the laws society passes. Talk about unjust!!! Just because the car is in an area frequented by players at an early hour 3am and looks funny doesn't mean there isn't a perfectly reasonable reason why he's there. Give him a week or two and he'll think of it......

[Gusgus]

Mrat, Longpath, and other TFL LEOs,
I'm sure that where you folk work, this is not a problem. The fact that you are members of a gun board, further show that you support the right of Citizens to own firearms, and treat said Citizens with respect.

Someday you will wake up to the fact that there is a growing number of your "brothers in blue" that simply feel that no "civilian" should own a firearm. These officers, with the support of their superiors, use "the job" to harass us law abiding, "potential criminals", every chance they get.

If you are found to have legally owned, and legally cased firearms in you vehicle during a traffic stop in NJ, there is far more than a 50% chance that you WILL be detained, questioned, searched, and treated as a criminal. If you are stopped by NJSP, your chances are closer to 100%. Roadside vehicle searches are so common place here, that they are jokingly referred to as a "Jersey Tourist Attraction". I see several a week.

To the rest of TFL members that have replied that it has never happened to them, let me state the following. Just because these abuses don't happen in your neck of the woods, does't mean that they are not a real concern for some of the rest of us.

Oh, and if you are traveling through the NE with firearms, take the long route if you have to, and stay the heck out of NJ. I'm not kidding.

[Coronach]

I dunno, Gusgus...lets have some fun with cut-and-paste, shall we?

Someday you will wake up to the fact that there is a growing number of your "brothers in arms" that simply feel that they can shoot people whenever they want. These criminals, with the support of the NRA, use "their rights" to kill us law abiding, "sheep", every chance they get.

So...some officers are anti-gun, and some gun owners like to kill people. Generalizations don't get us very far.

Generally.

Mike