Draft

[ahenry]

ahenry,
I'm talking about the REST of America, of course.

Ok.

[Lancel]

No, at most a mobilizing of reserves and maybe tapping the Noble Eagle list of some 5000 prior service volunteers.

[JoshM75]

The return of the draft is unlikely. An increase in 'contractors' [e.g. Dyncorp, TRW, and MPRI who are said to have more generals per square foot then in the Pentagon.] though is likely, especially in support areas and operations other then war. This will free up some military units for action.

Another possibility is increasing foreign enlistments in exchange for green cards. There is already some movement on this from the President, mainly for Mexican nationals ?

I agree with Wyldone's point on the Draft. In fact by violating everyone equally in regards to the possibly of being drafted, then you also increase its unpopularity with the entire public.

[ronin308]

WyldOne- See what glock glockler said.

JoshM75- I'm not so sure it would really change the public position on the draft. After all, women have endured the draft for decades in the form of their husbands, sons, uncles, etc. going to war. Most of the women I know are extremely opposed to the draft, the males that I know generally either loathe it or would deal with it.

[Salpalinja]

Hi all. I have some first hand experience about conscription, so let me share my opinions. My service was 330d long and I left the army as a sergeant.

I would say that conscription is the only real option for small and independent (Not in NATO) countrys like Finland. There is no other option awailable. A professional army could be the way for us but only after we join the NATO, it could take maybe 5 years.

We have experience from winter war when in the thirties we had so low defence budget that there was no money available to train all conscripts and when the war broke out the deployment of these untrained troops was delayed almost fatefully.

Golgo-13: Slavery must be pretty funny because I enjoyed it very much

[Joe Demko]

Golgo-13: Slavery must be pretty funny because I enjoyed it very much

Did you enjoy being conscripted or did you enjoy being in the military? They aren't the same thing. I am vehemently against conscription. I also volunteered to serve in my country's military. If you enjoy being a slave, you have both my pity and my contempt.

[Salpalinja]

Being a slave for the government for 330d that I have chosen is IMHO little bit better than to be a slave for the occupaing force that fills the power vacuum. After we join the NATO then it is a different thing. But right now things are as I like them to be.

Right now we can support only 30000 troops as a professional army, so that is out of the question.

I personally have nothing against conscription, and I also feel it is a duty to serve, but the service was far from slavery as it is defined in the dictionary, so I apologize if I hurt someones feelings. Another Euro-kiddie (is that the term??) reporting from europe

[igor]

Salpa, there's no way we're gonna surrender to NATO. By the time that becomes a possibility there will be no NATO to join in.

Golgo: it's either our own conscription or the neighbor's conscripts take over. There the slavery analogy would work. The Finnish doctrine is to remain within our own borders, minding our own business; theirs (and yours, for that matter) isn't.

Our system also gives the option to serve unarmed or altogether outside the military, "working" in hospitals and such. The 15% that choose to do that are largely considered as parasites (take your anti/pro-gun debate and extrapolate on national level... ).

[Oleg Volk]

If preparedness for national defense is the goal, then it is disingenuous to require conscription but prohibit realistic training on a personal level. Before the US even considers the draft or conscription again, it better eliminate all barriers to acquiring and training with the standard infantry weapons. Plenty of Americans are willing to learn how to use small arms, provided they don't have to jump through the ATF hoops to do so.

Further, the expediency of consciption does not change the fact that it should not be a legal option for the US governments. Ordering a person to be someplace and do something without that person's un-coerced agreement is somewhere between kidnapping and the step one in the "final solution". The victim might end up in a boot camp or might end up elsewhere. So long as there's a prohibition on bringing of personal weapons along, I will question the motives of any official order to do anything like reporting to a particular location at a particular time. US government (or any other) doesn't always have my best interests in mind...while I am detained, its employees might be rooting through my home or molesting my family.

In short, any government should get no more trust than any ex-con with a history of broken promises and unprovoked violence. Letting them draft us is just a little more trust than I can manage.

[WyldOne]

GG, I thought about this all night. I do see your point, and it's a good one. But....I'm not sure if I agree.

Basically, the problem is this: It's a double-edged sword for feminists/"libbers".

We say, we want equal rights as men. We want to be treated like men (not treated as if we are men, however. Please note the difference). Discrimination is wrong.

"They" say, discrimination is only wrong when you (meaning feminists) are being discriminated against. If men are being discriminated against, how many women's libbers say anything? Enter the draft argument. It's okay for men to be forced to fight and die for their country, but suddenly women are too dainty? No, no,no, no. Yet that always seems to be how the discussion goes.

Discrimination is never right. Conscription is never right. So what to do about a discriminatory draft?

I thought I had the answer. Now I'm all mixed up again.

(For the record. I dunno if anyone out there is keeping track of powerful arguments. But just in case, this was the part that made me stop in my tracks and think.)

Our end goal, hopefully, would be to make it so that there is as little injustice and oppression as possible. When we expand the draft we are also expanding the amount of injustice being perpetuated.

[Oleg Volk]

WyldOne speaks for me on this issue.

[Betty]

Yikes. This is a topic that's on flames for lots of folks. I remember what happened in the last draft thread. And the fallout afterwards.

To answer the original question of the thread: no.

And I probably won't help things when I post this short essay I wrote on the subject of the draft:

on Mandatory Conscription

By Betty W.

The draft. I don’t think anyone likes hearing those words, because it means sons, fathers and husbands are going to face certain death and hardship for whatever reasons the government sees fit, and who knows how the government determines that the little scrap of land somewhere in someland is worth spending American lives on. And if these chosen Americans don’t die, they don’t come back the same - some end up with missing limbs or missing sanity. Lucky ones come back glorified heroes or are still intact enough to continue with their daily lives.

I don’t like the draft. Should it have been applied in Viet Nam? No. Would dad have met mom? No. Would I have been born? No. Would our lives today be the same if there was no Viet Nam? No. For the record, my dad volunteered two tours of his life to Uncle Sam. He knew he’d be drafted if he didn’t, so it was a matter of forced personal dignity to volunteer first. My uncle escaped to college, and my younger aunt played hippy games while her big brother sweated it out with an M16 in a dense jungle. What did South Viet Nam get out of this? A slight delay to their fate. And lots of Agent Orange babies. What did the American government get? A great embarassment and cargo plane loads of dead bodies. And more hippies.

I know my mother has a better life now — she’s not knee-deep in a rice paddy and neck-high in a Communist regime with a mandatory picture of Ho Chi Minh displayed prominently in the home. Dad hates Jane Fonda with a passion and likes the M14 better than the M16. I don’t ask dad about his war years, and mom will only talk about the family she misses over there. They just got the first phones installed in her little village, so now mom’s able to communicate with them more swiftly.

Mom said her dad died fighting for her country. She has only one picture of him — a very worn, torn photo that’s been hand colorized. He’s very young in the photo. He died young. He lost his life fighting for his country and for his family.

And then I picture this scenario: I’m in my home with six or seven random people. Suddenly we’re under siege, and the attackers want us all dead. We pick up our rifles, break out the window panes, and fight for our lives. All except for one. He sits on my couch and twiddles his thumbs and picks his nose.

“I’m not going to fight, and you can’t make me,” he says.

And he sits on my couch, eats my food, sleeps in my bed, and enjoys my facilities while the rest of us struggle to defend our impromptu fortress. Who is this man who sponges from my home while the rest of us are fighting for it? A parasite. And I think: if you won’t or are unable to pick up a rifle, then pass the ammunition. Cook us some food while we’re fighting so that we may have the strength to fight on. Keep a look out the windows and point us to the enemy hiding behind the bushes. Bandage us when we’re wounded. After all it’s your fortress, too, and the enemy isn’t going to want you less dead than the rest of us. If you won’t do something to protect your own borders when it’s under attack, than you’re worthless. You’re eating the food I could be using to feed the people who are fighting, sitting on the couch that I could to rest the wounded, and so on. You expect me to fight while you sit around watching TV to pass the time? Get out of my house. Get as far away from me as possible.

Mandatory conscription — it’s a fancy term for slavery. But when the cow dung hits the fan over our own heads, we won’t have the choice to go to the fight, because the fight came for us. Do something constructive. We’re going to need rifles, medical attention, food, transportation and more. When the tsunami hits, it knows no discretion. And you’re in it’s path, too. If you’re not going to volunteer to save your own buns, than I won’t save it for you. I’m going to scoop up your sorry waste of space and ship it right over to the enemy. Oh — are you fighting me, now?

[Joe Demko]

How about this version: I'm sitting on MY couch in a room with six or seven random people. Suddenly, one of these people announces that he has been elected by the others as our leader and that I must join them in attacking the house across the street. If I refuse, they tell me they will lock me in a closet. If I resist, they will shoot me.
Who decided you own the couch?

[Oleg Volk]

One compromise would be to make a disctinction between defensive and offensive wars. Then again...Israeli 1967 war was "defensive" though they shot first and Finland "treacherously attacked" the USSR in 1939...dealing with governments is no different from dealing with any other lawyers...check every word and make sure enforcement mechanisms exist to back up your claim against theirs.

[Lancel]

First off, all the services emphatically agree that they prefer the volunteer force over a conscript one.

Second, you can metaphorize anything - slavery, livingrooms, etc. I served as neither slave nor overseer.

But the fact is that the draft is a tax on time and self used by the government when times or resources prevent asking nicely. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Larry

[Joe Demko]

But the fact is that the draft is a tax on time and self used by the government when times or resources prevent asking nicely. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

So the government has a claim on your life, to spend it as they see fit?

You maybe. Not me.

[Lancel]

Golgo-13,

Thankfully, neither of us has had to pay the highest tax but I do respectfully benefit from all those who have paid it.

Larry

[bullet44]

Do we need the draft to fight Iraq, no.
However a draft would be a good idea
for our future, especially reading the
answers given to this thread, using words
such as slaves, taxing my time, etc.
We have become a nation who wants others to do our fighting, trouble is sometimes
the folks you hire turn on you.!!

Just a thought.

[Blackhawk]

No.

There are far worse things than being drafted.

Some of the manifest self-importance here is scary simply because it might be symptomatic.

Runt's essay is excellent.

[vulcan]

There not going to be a draft!!! By the time the draftees make it to the reception stations, Its going to be over! The military(& I) prefer a volunteer military anyways. I would be happy to serve again,If they would have me( 8 yrs Army). Even if they needed bodies, The first to be called will be the reservist & newly discharged personnel( especially in key MOSs) . If they start calling for a draft of civilians or call in retreads, We're in a world of hurt.

[ronin308]

Some of the manifest self-importance here is scary simply because it might be symptomatic.

Self-preservation is more like it. Would I have fought in Vietnam? Hell no. Would I have fought in WWII? Where do I sign up!?

I like to be able to evaluate if something is worth putting my life on the line. I don't want a bayonet at my back telling me to march onward for Comrade Stalin and the Motherland.

[Lancel]

It sure is a touchy issue for some.

Runt said it well. I also agree with Heinlein's thought that a person shouldn't have full citizenship until they have served the country (in some form or other).

I personally think my 21 years of service was the most rewarding thing I've ever done but understand that others may not feel the same even if they serve only a few months.

Regardless of the different views in this thread, I have faith that if the nation as a whole was seriously threatened the vast majority of citizens would answer the call.

[Joe Demko]

There are far worse things than being drafted.

So what? Because there are things that might be worse (like being shot dead for resisting arrest for failure to report for conscription), I should be happy to be enslaved? Once again:
You maybe.
Not me.

I volunteered for service. I did it as a choice made by a free man. I might do it again. However, my life and those of my children are not resources for the state to draw upon and use (squander) as and when they see fit. If the cause is just, there will be volunteers enough. If the cause does not motivate enough volunteers, then it is an adventure that should not be undertaken.

What is disappointing is the number of people who spout about freedom but then actually turn out to be closet collectivists who are perfectly willing to use the power of the state to coerce their fellow citizens. Spiffy slogans like "freedom ain't free" don't make it anything but slavery.

[ronin308]

I have faith that if the nation as a whole was seriously threatened the vast majority of citizens would answer the call.

Your faith is well spent. I also believe that if this country ever saw a clear threat that everyone would do what they could. My dad volunteered for Vietnam. Many of my relatives served in WWII, the most notable serving under Patton and another serving with Merrill's Marauders. Another relative served in the Civil War for the Union.

That is quite possibly why it saddens me that our country is going socialist on us. I don't trust the judgement of our govenment today, therefore I don't want them to have the final word if I have to go to war. If there was a war going on that I deemed just, I would most likely sign up. There comes a time when you screw with the bull you're going to get the horn. But that is going to have to be my choice with the government as it is.

[vulcan]

lancel. I was also thinking of the other phrase"anything given(citizenship), has no value". I agree with Heinlen