Tacoma Mall CCW guy speaks

riverkeeper · November 30, 2005, 12:23 AM

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/l...-4853200c.html

Duxman · November 30, 2005, 09:20 AM

As a fellow CCW'er in a neighboring state, I am very sorry this guy got hurt. For those of us who have never been in battle - you never know how you will react under fire.

But from a MMQB perspective - talking to the gunman after he had already opened fire and possibly hurt / killed several people, was not the brightest thing to do. Leave that to the professional negotiators. Either shoot the BG or duck and run. No in-between.

Anything else gets you shot.

XavierBreath · November 30, 2005, 09:32 AM

Here's another take on it.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...wounded29.html

Tuesday, November 29, 2005

Mall shooting victim is glad he held his fire
More might have been hit, he says

By SAM SKOLNIK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

In one of his first interviews since the shooting at the Tacoma Mall on Nov. 20, victim Brendan McKown said Monday he feared that if he had taken a shot at the man firing into the crowds, he might have only caused other shoppers to get struck by bullets.
When the shooting started, McKown, a mall store assistant manager with a license to carry a firearm, said he didn't know who was firing at whom. So he made a snap decision not to stand up and fire back. "It could be three policemen firing at one guy, and I could come out and be another target," he said.
Mall shooting victim Brendan McKown answers reporters' questions with humor from his hospital bed at Tacoma General on Monday.
So he yelled at the man to drop his gun -- a move that only caused the gunman to pivot and fire at McKown, striking him, he said, five or six times. The shots blew him back several feet, he said.
"When I changed into another position, I see just the most surreal sight," McKown said from his bed at Tacoma General Hospital in a pool interview conducted by KOMO/4. "It's a young Arabic-looking boy ... with a ball cap on and an AK in his hand," he said, referring to the weapon he thought the shooter was firing, an AK-47 assault rifle.
"So I said, 'Put down the weapon!' " continued McKown. "Obviously, he was faster on the draw than I was."
Of six shooting victims, McKown, 38, was the most seriously injured. He said he has no movement in his left leg and only 10 percent normal movement in his right. He isn't sure if he'll ever walk again, though he's hopeful and determined to do so.
Police arrested Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, in the shooting. They also say he took four hostages at a Sam Goody music store at the mall. Pierce County prosecutors charged Maldonado with eight counts of first-degree assault, four counts of first-degree kidnapping and two counts of unlawful possession of a firearm.
As an assistant manager of the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store, McKown was on his way to make a deposit at the time of the shooting. Tacoma police said he was legally permitted to be carrying a pistol at the time.
"It's a stupid statement, but I have a concealed weapons permit in case some idiot shoots up a mall," said McKown, who added that he likely would return to his job, and may also start doing stand-up comedy again.
McKown on Monday was upgraded to satisfactory condition, said Todd Kelley, a spokesman for Tacoma General. Kelley said McKown might be discharged in the next couple of days to a rehabilitation clinic.
McKown was struck twice in the abdomen, and he also suffered an injury to his spinal cord. Surgery to remove bullet and bone fragments from his spinal canal was successful, though he faces the possibility of partial or permanent paralysis.
McKown said that in the end, he was thankful to be alive. "I'd be lying if I thought I was doing great," he said. "But I sure got off light, all things considered."

Derius_T · November 30, 2005, 09:42 AM

I feel really bad for the guy. Its real easy to quarterback from your chair and say what you would do EVERY TIME, but its just not that simple for a normal civilian, who hasn't been trained, to make the choice to take a human life in a split second. Even highly trained people sometimes freeze or hesitate. Unfortunately, as the old saying goes, he who hesitates is lost.....

Its really a shame that he didn't pop that sick freak. I honestly feel they should bring back the firing squad for him, just so he could see how his victims felt....

XavierBreath · November 30, 2005, 10:16 AM

I think this would be a good time to submit a plug for Lt. dave grossman's book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,and On Combat. These are books that anyone who carries a gun with the potential to someday use it against another human being should read.

There is a lot to this taking a life stuff that is never discussed. In the stress of the moment, it is not as easy as many believe.

woodland · November 30, 2005, 02:02 PM

I really do feal for the guy. But I sure hope if I found myself in the same situation, that I would act a little differently. I agree once the shooting has started, the time for talk is over. I see two choices after the shooting starts. Either shoot back, or run like hell. Either one may still get you killed, but anything in between will almost guarantee you will get killed.

The fact that the guy "followed his body as it fell, continuing to shoot" shows his mentality. What gets me is this scum was only charged with assault! He shoots a guy deliberatly, and continues shooting him multiple times after he has gone down, and that is just assault?!?!?!? That sounds like attempted murder to me. As far as I'm concerned, if you intentionaly point a gun at another human with malicious intent and pull the trigger, you should be up for murder, and if convicted, executed. Even if you missed, you made the mental choice to comit murder, so whether you succede or not, in my mind, you are guilty of the crime of murder. But perhaps I am too harsh.

Garand Illusion · November 30, 2005, 02:10 PM

The way they describe the situation, I don't know what I'd do. People running everywhere, the fear that the cops are there returning fire ... unless I had a clear target my real concern would be to get away. If I didn't have a good backstop I'd still take a shot, but I'd make a point to get at least a "flash sight" on him.

Of course ... downside is stopping to do that might be more likely to get me hurt than just running with the sheep.

When you choose to be a sheepdog, you take your chances.

Supertac · November 30, 2005, 02:18 PM

I can't believe their not chrging him with attemped murder!!! That's TOTAL BS. :barf: :barf: :barf:

Duxman · November 30, 2005, 02:50 PM

Thats the Republik of Maryland for you.

In Virginia they would be handing multiple death sentences via Murder charges to this joker.

itgoesboom · November 30, 2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Thats the Republik of Maryland for you.

In Virginia they would be handing multiple death sentences via Murder charges to this joker.

Duxman,

Actually the shooting was in Washington State. Not Maryland. Not D.C.

As for his tactics? I won't judge him. But the way the first article read, it sounds like he might not have been ready and willing to shoot someone in self defence.

That decision needs to be made upfront, not when it hits the fan.

I.G.B.

jcims · November 30, 2005, 03:48 PM

Part of the problem may have been what he says he saw:

Quote:

"When I changed into another position, I see just the most surreal sight," McKown said from his bed at Tacoma General Hospital in a pool interview conducted by KOMO/4. "It's a young Arabic-looking boy ... with a ball cap on and an AK in his hand,"...

It's one thing to shoot a faceless thug, but this dude looks like opey taylor with a james dean do.

Obviously even skinny litte dweebs are capable of putting multiple hits on you as you are falling to the ground, but unless you're in pure automation mode, it would have to be hard to try to drop a 'boy'.

FLA2760 · November 30, 2005, 03:59 PM

Hi
I do hope that the man gets well. We all hope we would engage and take him out but we do not know how we may react. I do agree that the choice to carry a gun for self defense implies that we have already decided that if there was no other way that we would shoot to stop the BG. If they die that is too bad. However the thought that "I might get arrested for brandishing a weapon" could have been eliminated if the mall guy and all of us for that matter were thoughly familiar with when and when we can't draw our weapon. In the mall case it is a a draw and shoot case. The mall guy's thought of being shot by responding police is a valid concern. This is something we all need to keep in our thoughts. Anyway, GODSPEED to the mall CCW guy and all the oters who were shot.

stickslinger · November 30, 2005, 08:01 PM

I read it this way.

Good guy draws his gun and takes cover, then has second thoughts. So he HOLSTERS his firearm...a pistol....steps out from behind cover while keeping eye contact with the BG and confronts a killer carrying a RIFLE!

I really hope the guy recovers, I wish him well. I can understand all the reasons why he chose not to shoot. I don't understand not staying behind cover and holstering your weapon when someone is shooting! I can understand freezing with the gun in your hand or hiding even though your armed...plenty of good reasons for that....but I don't understand putting your pistol back in your holster and then telling an obviously malicious armed bad guy to drop his weapon

As Clint Smith is fond of saying..."keep the muzzle pointed at the bad guy!"

I think he admitted to making some bad decisions. The reason we analyze these events and MMQB is the same reason we train and the same reason world class athletes visiualize themselves performing their sport. So that when it actually happens, it's natural. I believe the more times you put yourself in that position in your mind the better chance you have of acting like you visualized if it ever happens to you.

Sulaco2 · November 30, 2005, 11:01 PM

I think like a lot of people that carry for a lot of reasons when TSHTF they find out they can't shoot. No real shame, happens to many cops. This society does not as a rule raise killers in the general population. “Making the decision before you carry” only means you have given it some thought does not mean you will actually shoot when the time comes. Train and train some more. In talking with shooting involved cops they all basically say the same thing, they hesitated until it was almost too late because they don’t want to kill somebody. At some point the training takes over and they follow though like they were trained and survived…

Alot of us learn from it. If you survive the first incident most say never again and mean it. Know a cop didn't fire when he should have. Was involved in two more fatal shootins within 10 years and won each one. He said it was the first "real world" incident that convinced him to act.

stickslinger · December 1, 2005, 08:03 AM

Upon further reflection, could you say that his fear of the police / authority was greater than his fear of being shot?

Didn't he say that he holstered his gun because he didn't know if the police were shooting and didn't want to get in the way? He also mentioned not wanting to get in trouble for brandishing his firearm in the mall.

John28226 · December 1, 2005, 08:57 AM

For any reader wanting to do more than wish McKown well, you may send contributions to: Dan McKown Medical Fund, c/o Bank of America, 4002 Tacoma Mall Blvd., Tacoma, WA 98409-7702. His medical expenses will be huge and, right here at Christmas time, I think some cards with checks enclosed would brighten his day.

Regardless of how you view his tactics or however you care to look at what happened, he is definitely a good guy and in need of cheer; and financial help won't hurt either.

John
Charlotte, NC

BatmanX · December 1, 2005, 12:43 PM

MMQB is ok.
Situations like these we all must learn from.

He says he was afraid he would get shot, or that the cops might shoot him, yet he recognized that it was a kid with an AK.

No reason to confront, aim and fire.
If you are not comfotable with your position, keep cover, move, get a better handle on the situation, where is he shooting? Does he have an advantage on your position? Can you move? Can you get a better shot? Do you see any cops where he was firing? Can you take cover and if not comfortable to shoot get on your cell phone?

This is what training is for.

Dude is very lucky to be alive, and everyone should take a moment to re-read the story and play the scenario in their head.
These things are happening more often now. Be ready. Trainining will kick in.

woodland · December 1, 2005, 12:58 PM

I also can't believe he was allowed to lay there on the floor for an HOUR!!! If they were afraid to take him out through the mall, why couldn't they take him out through the back of the store he was in? And the police were already there, and had the guy shooter cornered in the music store.

I am not bagging on the ploice, but you can bet if one of them had been shot, he would have been dragged out a lot quicker than an hour!

He is lucky he didn't bleed to death.

xrageofangelsx · December 1, 2005, 03:10 PM

Oh my...

jeff_troop · December 1, 2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

he was allowed to lay there on the floor for an HOUR!!!

gfd

Jack Malloy · December 1, 2005, 05:42 PM

I feel very bad for the guy, but come on. It could have been a lot worse.
He could have taken a shot at the kid with the rifle, missed and hit an innocent bystander.
Then ALL of us CCW guys would be up $#!+ creek.
When in doubt, don't whip it out.....

rapier144 · December 1, 2005, 05:56 PM

I don't feel bad for the guy one bit. If you're to stupid enough to try and talk to someone that is shooting up the place you deserve whatever you get. Hell at least wait until he has to reload before having a conversation with him!

springmom · December 1, 2005, 07:34 PM

...but I would hope that looking at somebody walking through a mall with an AK knockoff might overcome the "Opie Taylor" recognition. It is sad but true that we cannot afford anymore to be frozen into inaction or to look at a person who is clearly hurting others and say "Oh, no, that can't be" and then NOT ACT.

Maybe I'd do the same, I don't know...and I can't really know until I would be there. But he could have saved lives, and could have kept his own life intact had he shot. We need to soberly consider all this as well as replaying the actual mechanics of the scenario, to hopefully be mentally/psychologically aware of the issues and our feelings as well as the "roll to the right, get behind cover" kind of stuff.

Truthfully, I think I feel sorriest for the shooter's parents, who are probably wishing a large hole would just swallow them up for good.

Springmom

RochPersDef · December 1, 2005, 07:53 PM

I must second the books by Grossman. I read them both and do feel that they are a must read for anyone who carries for self protection. They were first reccommended to me at an Insights class a couple years ago and I got them as soon as I could find them. I now bring them with me for reference when I teach my own self defense classes. You owe it to yourselves to be as informed and prepared as possible.

Stay Safe everyone!!

**JohnKSa** · December 1, 2005, 10:46 PM

Third on Grossman's books. (At least On Combat, haven't read the others.)

I don't agree with him on everything he says, but there are some valuable insights. Definitely worth reading.

November 30, 2005, 12:23 AM	#1
riverkeeper Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 214	Tacoma Mall CCW guy speaks http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/l...-4853200c.html __________________ "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel ........ 'All the wooly-headed thinking explains the happy howling.' -- r

November 30, 2005, 09:32 AM	#3
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	Here's another take on it. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...wounded29.html Tuesday, November 29, 2005 Mall shooting victim is glad he held his fire More might have been hit, he says By SAM SKOLNIK SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER In one of his first interviews since the shooting at the Tacoma Mall on Nov. 20, victim Brendan McKown said Monday he feared that if he had taken a shot at the man firing into the crowds, he might have only caused other shoppers to get struck by bullets. When the shooting started, McKown, a mall store assistant manager with a license to carry a firearm, said he didn't know who was firing at whom. So he made a snap decision not to stand up and fire back. "It could be three policemen firing at one guy, and I could come out and be another target," he said. Mall shooting victim Brendan McKown answers reporters' questions with humor from his hospital bed at Tacoma General on Monday. So he yelled at the man to drop his gun -- a move that only caused the gunman to pivot and fire at McKown, striking him, he said, five or six times. The shots blew him back several feet, he said. "When I changed into another position, I see just the most surreal sight," McKown said from his bed at Tacoma General Hospital in a pool interview conducted by KOMO/4. "It's a young Arabic-looking boy ... with a ball cap on and an AK in his hand," he said, referring to the weapon he thought the shooter was firing, an AK-47 assault rifle. "So I said, 'Put down the weapon!' " continued McKown. "Obviously, he was faster on the draw than I was." Of six shooting victims, McKown, 38, was the most seriously injured. He said he has no movement in his left leg and only 10 percent normal movement in his right. He isn't sure if he'll ever walk again, though he's hopeful and determined to do so. Police arrested Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, in the shooting. They also say he took four hostages at a Sam Goody music store at the mall. Pierce County prosecutors charged Maldonado with eight counts of first-degree assault, four counts of first-degree kidnapping and two counts of unlawful possession of a firearm. As an assistant manager of the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store, McKown was on his way to make a deposit at the time of the shooting. Tacoma police said he was legally permitted to be carrying a pistol at the time. "It's a stupid statement, but I have a concealed weapons permit in case some idiot shoots up a mall," said McKown, who added that he likely would return to his job, and may also start doing stand-up comedy again. McKown on Monday was upgraded to satisfactory condition, said Todd Kelley, a spokesman for Tacoma General. Kelley said McKown might be discharged in the next couple of days to a rehabilitation clinic. McKown was struck twice in the abdomen, and he also suffered an injury to his spinal cord. Surgery to remove bullet and bone fragments from his spinal canal was successful, though he faces the possibility of partial or permanent paralysis. McKown said that in the end, he was thankful to be alive. "I'd be lying if I thought I was doing great," he said. "But I sure got off light, all things considered." __________________ Xavier's Blog

November 30, 2005, 10:16 AM	#5
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	I think this would be a good time to submit a plug for Lt. dave grossman's book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,and On Combat. These are books that anyone who carries a gun with the potential to someday use it against another human being should read. There is a lot to this taking a life stuff that is never discussed. In the stress of the moment, it is not as easy as many believe. __________________ Xavier's Blog

November 30, 2005, 02:02 PM	#6
woodland Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: western wa. Posts: 564	I really do feal for the guy. But I sure hope if I found myself in the same situation, that I would act a little differently. I agree once the shooting has started, the time for talk is over. I see two choices after the shooting starts. Either shoot back, or run like hell. Either one may still get you killed, but anything in between will almost guarantee you will get killed. The fact that the guy "followed his body as it fell, continuing to shoot" shows his mentality. What gets me is this scum was only charged with assault! He shoots a guy deliberatly, and continues shooting him multiple times after he has gone down, and that is just assault?!?!?!? That sounds like attempted murder to me. As far as I'm concerned, if you intentionaly point a gun at another human with malicious intent and pull the trigger, you should be up for murder, and if convicted, executed. Even if you missed, you made the mental choice to comit murder, so whether you succede or not, in my mind, you are guilty of the crime of murder. But perhaps I am too harsh. __________________ "There is no spoon..."

November 30, 2005, 02:10 PM	#7
Garand Illusion Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,278	The way they describe the situation, I don't know what I'd do. People running everywhere, the fear that the cops are there returning fire ... unless I had a clear target my real concern would be to get away. If I didn't have a good backstop I'd still take a shot, but I'd make a point to get at least a "flash sight" on him. Of course ... downside is stopping to do that might be more likely to get me hurt than just running with the sheep. When you choose to be a sheepdog, you take your chances. __________________ Lots of idiots in this forum. I think they must breed here. Enjoy!

November 30, 2005, 09:20 AM	#2
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	As a fellow CCW'er in a neighboring state, I am very sorry this guy got hurt. For those of us who have never been in battle - you never know how you will react under fire. But from a MMQB perspective - talking to the gunman after he had already opened fire and possibly hurt / killed several people, was not the brightest thing to do. Leave that to the professional negotiators. Either shoot the BG or duck and run. No in-between. Anything else gets you shot.

November 30, 2005, 09:42 AM	#4
Derius_T Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: South West OHIO (boondocks) Posts: 1,337	I feel really bad for the guy. Its real easy to quarterback from your chair and say what you would do EVERY TIME, but its just not that simple for a normal civilian, who hasn't been trained, to make the choice to take a human life in a split second. Even highly trained people sometimes freeze or hesitate. Unfortunately, as the old saying goes, he who hesitates is lost..... Its really a shame that he didn't pop that sick freak. I honestly feel they should bring back the firing squad for him, just so he could see how his victims felt....

November 30, 2005, 02:18 PM	#8
Supertac Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2005 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 181	I can't believe their not chrging him with attemped murder!!! That's TOTAL BS. :barf: :barf: :barf:

November 30, 2005, 02:50 PM	#9
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	Thats the Republik of Maryland for you. In Virginia they would be handing multiple death sentences via Murder charges to this joker.

November 30, 2005, 03:59 PM	#12
FLA2760 Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2005 Location: Hernando County, Florida Posts: 574	Re CCW mall guy Hi I do hope that the man gets well. We all hope we would engage and take him out but we do not know how we may react. I do agree that the choice to carry a gun for self defense implies that we have already decided that if there was no other way that we would shoot to stop the BG. If they die that is too bad. However the thought that "I might get arrested for brandishing a weapon" could have been eliminated if the mall guy and all of us for that matter were thoughly familiar with when and when we can't draw our weapon. In the mall case it is a a draw and shoot case. The mall guy's thought of being shot by responding police is a valid concern. This is something we all need to keep in our thoughts. Anyway, GODSPEED to the mall CCW guy and all the oters who were shot. __________________ STEVE, NRA LIFE MEMBER; Member GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA What part of "shall not be infringed" does the Democratic Party not understand?

November 30, 2005, 08:01 PM	#13
stickslinger Member Join Date: April 8, 2002 Posts: 62	I read it this way. Good guy draws his gun and takes cover, then has second thoughts. So he HOLSTERS his firearm...a pistol....steps out from behind cover while keeping eye contact with the BG and confronts a killer carrying a RIFLE! I really hope the guy recovers, I wish him well. I can understand all the reasons why he chose not to shoot. I don't understand not staying behind cover and holstering your weapon when someone is shooting! I can understand freezing with the gun in your hand or hiding even though your armed...plenty of good reasons for that....but I don't understand putting your pistol back in your holster and then telling an obviously malicious armed bad guy to drop his weapon As Clint Smith is fond of saying..."keep the muzzle pointed at the bad guy!" I think he admitted to making some bad decisions. The reason we analyze these events and MMQB is the same reason we train and the same reason world class athletes visiualize themselves performing their sport. So that when it actually happens, it's natural. I believe the more times you put yourself in that position in your mind the better chance you have of acting like you visualized if it ever happens to you.

November 30, 2005, 11:01 PM	#14
Sulaco2 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,247	I think like a lot of people that carry for a lot of reasons when TSHTF they find out they can't shoot. No real shame, happens to many cops. This society does not as a rule raise killers in the general population. “Making the decision before you carry” only means you have given it some thought does not mean you will actually shoot when the time comes. Train and train some more. In talking with shooting involved cops they all basically say the same thing, they hesitated until it was almost too late because they don’t want to kill somebody. At some point the training takes over and they follow though like they were trained and survived… Alot of us learn from it. If you survive the first incident most say never again and mean it. Know a cop didn't fire when he should have. Was involved in two more fatal shootins within 10 years and won each one. He said it was the first "real world" incident that convinced him to act.

December 1, 2005, 08:03 AM	#15
stickslinger Member Join Date: April 8, 2002 Posts: 62	Upon further reflection, could you say that his fear of the police / authority was greater than his fear of being shot? Didn't he say that he holstered his gun because he didn't know if the police were shooting and didn't want to get in the way? He also mentioned not wanting to get in trouble for brandishing his firearm in the mall.

December 1, 2005, 08:57 AM	#16
John28226 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 292	More than well wishes For any reader wanting to do more than wish McKown well, you may send contributions to: Dan McKown Medical Fund, c/o Bank of America, 4002 Tacoma Mall Blvd., Tacoma, WA 98409-7702. His medical expenses will be huge and, right here at Christmas time, I think some cards with checks enclosed would brighten his day. Regardless of how you view his tactics or however you care to look at what happened, he is definitely a good guy and in need of cheer; and financial help won't hurt either. John Charlotte, NC

December 1, 2005, 12:43 PM	#17
BatmanX Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 266	glad he survived. MMQB is ok. Situations like these we all must learn from. He says he was afraid he would get shot, or that the cops might shoot him, yet he recognized that it was a kid with an AK. No reason to confront, aim and fire. If you are not comfotable with your position, keep cover, move, get a better handle on the situation, where is he shooting? Does he have an advantage on your position? Can you move? Can you get a better shot? Do you see any cops where he was firing? Can you take cover and if not comfortable to shoot get on your cell phone? This is what training is for. Dude is very lucky to be alive, and everyone should take a moment to re-read the story and play the scenario in their head. These things are happening more often now. Be ready. Trainining will kick in. __________________ NRA Life Member Current shopping list: Bersa Thunder 9mm CZ SP01 Current Ownage: CZ-P01 Bersa .380 (Duo tone) Kel Tec P3AT (SG) Stoeger 2000 (black syn.) 26" Winchester Model 97 12 gauge FULL Marlin Firearms Model 60 22LR

December 1, 2005, 12:58 PM	#18
woodland Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: western wa. Posts: 564	I also can't believe he was allowed to lay there on the floor for an HOUR!!! If they were afraid to take him out through the mall, why couldn't they take him out through the back of the store he was in? And the police were already there, and had the guy shooter cornered in the music store. I am not bagging on the ploice, but you can bet if one of them had been shot, he would have been dragged out a lot quicker than an hour! He is lucky he didn't bleed to death. __________________ "There is no spoon..."

December 1, 2005, 03:10 PM	#19
xrageofangelsx Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2004 Location: Ohio, Indiana and sometimes Kentucky. Posts: 410	Oh my... __________________ Caution: Author suffers from foot in mouth disease.

December 1, 2005, 05:42 PM	#21
Jack Malloy Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 791	I feel very bad for the guy, but come on. It could have been a lot worse. He could have taken a shot at the kid with the rifle, missed and hit an innocent bystander. Then ALL of us CCW guys would be up $#!+ creek. When in doubt, don't whip it out.....

December 1, 2005, 05:56 PM	#22
rapier144 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2005 Location: tennessee Posts: 686	I don't feel bad for the guy one bit. If you're to stupid enough to try and talk to someone that is shooting up the place you deserve whatever you get. Hell at least wait until he has to reload before having a conversation with him! __________________ Scan and Breathe Scan and Breathe Stupidity should hurt

December 1, 2005, 07:34 PM	#23
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	I feel bad for the guy too ...but I would hope that looking at somebody walking through a mall with an AK knockoff might overcome the "Opie Taylor" recognition. It is sad but true that we cannot afford anymore to be frozen into inaction or to look at a person who is clearly hurting others and say "Oh, no, that can't be" and then NOT ACT. Maybe I'd do the same, I don't know...and I can't really know until I would be there. But he could have saved lives, and could have kept his own life intact had he shot. We need to soberly consider all this as well as replaying the actual mechanics of the scenario, to hopefully be mentally/psychologically aware of the issues and our feelings as well as the "roll to the right, get behind cover" kind of stuff. Truthfully, I think I feel sorriest for the shooter's parents, who are probably wishing a large hole would just swallow them up for good. Springmom __________________ I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

December 1, 2005, 07:53 PM	#24
RochPersDef Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Western NY Posts: 24	I must second the books by Grossman. I read them both and do feel that they are a must read for anyone who carries for self protection. They were first reccommended to me at an Insights class a couple years ago and I got them as soon as I could find them. I now bring them with me for reference when I teach my own self defense classes. You owe it to yourselves to be as informed and prepared as possible. Stay Safe everyone!! __________________ Rochester Personal Defense Rochester, NY www.safeinrochester.com

December 1, 2005, 10:46 PM	#25
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,010	Third on Grossman's books. (At least On Combat, haven't read the others.) I don't agree with him on everything he says, but there are some valuable insights. Definitely worth reading. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?