COM vs. Abdomen Targeting

[TylerD45ACP]

Well said, Jon. Very well said.

[jon_in_wv]

Thank you. Back to the OPs original question, the abdomen IS COM in a frontal shot as far as I'm concerned. Misses are moot. You can miss either just as easily. While an abdomen shot may be painful a hit to the heart or lungs is effective, more so than pain I would wager. There are few things more painful than a collapsed or perforated lung. I can't imagine having much fight left in my when my lung is filling with my own blood. Would I train to lower COM intentionally? Not me.

[ClydeFrog]

I think some of the forum members are missing my point(s) about using the human head as a combat target over the torso or pelvic area.

As I stated, the head is to me, not the FIRST or BEST choice but it MAY be required to aim at based on the factors of the lethal force event.

The "win the first fight" mindset has flaws too. Yes, you must apply or use your skill sets or training to prevail in a high stress lethal force event BUT could you explain or justify your actions under oath or in court later on?

A crafty lawyer or a criminal investigator could grind up a subject or defendant with the "I don't care what happens." or "I aimed for the head & didn't care about the law or anyone near the armed criminal."

Armed license holders just like sworn LE officers must justify & account for every round they fire in a use of force(lethal force) event.

ClydeFrog

[threegun]

Clyde, I'm either in fear of death or grave bodily injury or I'm not shooting. Justification of my choice of shot location should be irrelevant after that. Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. If thats a glancing shot to the arm so be it. If its 5 rounds to 5 different areas so be it.

Someone kinda summed it up earlier or in another thread. I can't worry about the law when someone is trying to kill me. I have to stop them first.

If you follow the law you will likely be ok. If you do like the lady in my story you might not.

[mavracer]

The "win the first fight" mindset has flaws too. Yes, you must apply or use your skill sets or training to prevail in a high stress lethal force event BUT could you explain or justify your actions under oath or in court later on?

I don't think so. win the fight and face the jury is always a better answer than lose the fight.

After further thought to the OP's question. I guess you could set up a matrix.
with targeting priority and avaliability.
My priorities would be.
1 upper torso
2 head
3 pelvic girdle
4 lower torso
5 extremities
and then whats the highest priority thing on the list thats avaliable to hit.

[threegun]

Thats sums it up for me. Get hits and get them in the worst possible area for your foe that is available. Get then as fast as possible and with as many as needed.

[micromontenegro]

I am not impliyng that it is exactly the same.

But when hunting, you never ever shoot for the guts.

[threegun]

But when hunting, you never ever shoot for the guts.

Hunting is totally different. You usually have an unsuspecting animal who isn't trying to kill you. You have time to select your shot. Something you may not have when a bad guy trys to kill you. Plus you have erratic movement once the shooting starts.

If you want to compare it to hunting lets try this. A Lion is charging you as you are firing. If you miss you die. Would you take the gut shot now vs a miss? May work might not work.

In a perfect world we expect to be able to hit wherever we want. In my life things have never been perfect.

[micromontenegro]

A Lion is charging you as you are firing. If you miss you die. Would you take the gut shot now vs a miss? May work might not work.

Absolutely! But I would try very hard for a better shot.

That said, the only gunshot autopsy I witnesed as a student was a .308 FMJ to a kidney. Again, I am doing the apples/oranges thing, but the internal bleeding was MASSIVE. And decisive, I guess, as there wasn't a second shot.

BG shot by the local National Guard with a FAL, BTW.

[threegun]

Absolutely! But I would try very hard for a better shot.

For sure. Same holds true for most folks when faced off with an armed bad guy. We want to hit that sweet spot. We are gonna try to hit that sweet spot. For whatever reason if we can't get that sweet spot I hope all my misses could hit something.

When selecting were to shoot we must be prepared for failure to stop. The faster we can land a hit to the next value area be it hi head or low head, the better our chances to survive.

[ClydeFrog]

In CQB ranges(close quarters) some armed professionals & US military spec ops troops are trained to aim at the "Terminal T".
This is the zone of the face that goes across the eyes & forehead then down to the upper lip.
This target area is for the "down & dirty" areas or where a special marksman or combat sniper may need to aim quickly.
A hit to this human T zone should cause an immediate stop because the subject's CNS(central nervous system) is now out of commission or is starting to shut down.

It's not perfect but it could be needed in a high stress critical incident.

[TylerD45ACP]

I know exactly where your talking about ClydeFrog. They call it the terminal T because a bullet in that area will usually hit the Cerebellum, allowing for NO movement at all. If shot in other parts of the head the body can twitch, not with the Cerebellum destroyed.

[Double Naught Spy]

The "Terminal T"....

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In CQB ranges(close quarters) some armed professionals & US military spec ops troops are trained to aim at the "Terminal T".
This is the zone of the face that goes across the eyes & forehead then down to the upper lip.
This target area is for the "down & dirty" areas or where a special marksman or combat sniper may need to aim quickly.
A hit to this human T zone should cause an immediate stop because the subject's CNS(central nervous system) is now out of commission or is starting to shut down.

People discuss this like the bad guys' T zone is always level or higher than the gun being fired and facing straight at the shooter. The T zone as described is a 2D location on the face, not inside the skull. A shot to the face will NOT necessarily cause the immediate stop as claimed unless the trajectory and penetration take the bullet through the appropriate CNS structures.

Here is a side view of 4 trajectories. The top two entering the T zone will pass beneath the brain despite entering between the bridge of the nose and the upper lip. If the shot is the straight on, it will equally miss the brain stem to either side.

If you shoot the T zone from the view provided, what you can see of it, you can have a shot off nose, lip, or maybe an eye, but certainly not necessarily producing anything approaching an instant stop, not because of physiological shut down.

Remember than maybe only 30-40% of the volume of the perceived head is CNS structures.

[Sarge]

Angels dancing on the head of a pin, boys. Based on what I've seen--and am still seeing from dash-cams, surveillance cams and the like-once you realize some underwear stain is trying to kill you, you are probably going to shove your gun at your opponent and empty it. This has not changed much with the shift from six-shooters to hi-cap autos.

IMO there are a few basic lessons to be learned from all this.

• Use enough gun- the most gun that you shoot well, which fits your mission.
  
• Stay alert, watch your surroundings and position yourself for every advantage.
  
• IF a fight finds you- DRIVE the OODA loop, don't be driven by it!
  
• Land good hits ASAP (centerline) and follow with CNS if needed.
  
• Get large bulletproof stuff and distance between you and your problem, at the first opportunity!

Finally, pick a gun and stick to it. Practice like your life depended on it. BURN everything about it into your subconscious- safe presentation and reholstering, close/fast shooting, shooting and moving, precision shooting at distance, clearing malfs and all aspects of keeping it topped off and running. Being able to run that gun on autopilot, frees up the rest of your brain for problem-solving.

You have to be good. The other guy only has to be lucky.

[threegun]

Finally, pick a gun and stick to it. Practice like your life depended on it. BURN everything about it into your subconscious- safe presentation and reholstering, close/fast shooting, shooting and moving, precision shooting at distance, clearing malfs and all aspects of keeping it topped off and running. Being able to run that gun on autopilot, frees up the rest of your brain for problem-solving.

Perfectly said! Thanks Sarge.