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April 27, 2024, 12:53 AM | #51 |
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Once upon a time, the 125 grain .357 Magnum was considered the most effective anti-personnel handgun round. But that’s a revolver, eww.
We were told that the .357 Sig was meant to mimic that in an automatic. Which brings up .38 Super and 9x23Win for the enthusiast. Me? I’ll just keep on making do with 9mm P or .45 ACP. |
April 27, 2024, 01:33 AM | #52 | |
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They want small and light, for concealment and easy carry, then IF they get that in a sufficiently powerful cartridge, they complain about the recoil. Or the lack of round capacity, or the size and weight, if the gun is large enough to tame recoil to manageable levels. Oh, and don't forget they want it at a low price. There's no free lunch...sorry. I have a pistol that shoots that 125gr .357. Semi auto, 9+1 capacity recoil is not heavy. The GUN is heavy. Blast is fierce. The grip is huge. And the MV is over 1700fps with select handloads from the (nominal) 6" barrel. No one will choose it as a carry piece, it goes 4.25lbs empty. It's not "practical" but I like it, as a home defense pistol, I think it would do well, even if you missed, you could beat a grizzly bear to death with it, possibly,... The real question is not what is the best caliber for self defense, the question is what is the best caliber for self defense in a pistol YOU find acceptable. And that's going to be as varied as the people answering the question.
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April 27, 2024, 06:41 AM | #53 |
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Or, just carry extra mags. If you have gone through ten rounds that should buy enough time for a quick mag change if you’ve practiced. That being said I do agree the ten round limit is a load of BS and definitely falls under the definition of an infringement.
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April 27, 2024, 07:57 AM | #54 |
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Better a hit with a 22 short than a miss with a 9/40/45/50. Shot placement is everything. Don't ever count on any single hit or caliber to stop an assailant.
Charles Henderson's Marine Sniper recounts the story of Gunny Hathcock hitting in the chest a foe with a 30-06. That's the venerable bullet we used in WW I, WW II and Korea. The shot man responded by charging. Second shot to the chest didn't put him down and he still charged. It was the third shot to the head that dropped him.
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April 27, 2024, 10:50 AM | #55 | |
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.357 SIG. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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April 27, 2024, 01:03 PM | #56 |
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Unless you're just itching for a new gun, stick w/ your 9mm.
Use Federal HST for carry. ... expensive? yes. But not for life-on-the-line. and a whole cheaper than a new gun. . Last edited by mehavey; April 27, 2024 at 03:04 PM. |
April 27, 2024, 02:17 PM | #57 |
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Unless you’re just looking for a good reason to buy another gun, I’d give the nod to the 40S&W.
Then buy one in .45acp the very soonest next time. I understand the FJB people in dc don’t like that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
April 27, 2024, 04:26 PM | #58 |
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maybe; https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperst....cfm/ID/206586
sorry that was out of bounds, it's not 40 or 45 my bad. Last edited by georgehwbush; April 27, 2024 at 04:27 PM. Reason: out of bounds |
April 27, 2024, 04:52 PM | #59 |
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One thing got me wondering, since we haven't lived in a society where single shot muzzleloaders are our primary means of self defense for nearly two centuries, why the concern with "one shot stops"????
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April 27, 2024, 05:05 PM | #60 |
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well with pistols it would seem to be a moot point. from a long range perspective it's like white feather said "how many shots are you going to get?" when hunting, a follow up shot may or may not be a "thang"; reguardless of the game you hunt.
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April 27, 2024, 05:08 PM | #61 |
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and self/home defense is kind of like hunting dangerous game. if the first shot doesn't work the second shot may be theirs, and not yours.... just a thought.
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April 27, 2024, 05:14 PM | #62 | |
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Physiology, mindset, adrenalin or sythentic drug driven, torniqued like the Moros warriors, armor or something else stopping a projectile (I've heard of bibles, metal mirrors, cigarette cases saving soldiers/people) and a whole host of other factors can have an affect. The most legitimate reason is mutliple target engagement. Home invaders generally have force of numbers to accomplish their deeds.
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April 27, 2024, 06:19 PM | #63 | |
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They are not only coming in force of numbers, they're more sophisticated and experienced. |
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April 27, 2024, 10:17 PM | #64 | |||
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I'm certainly not saying that this study is flawless or that the results should be taken as gospel--just cautioning against trying to dismiss a study simply because one doesn't like what it suggests.
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April 28, 2024, 01:45 AM | #65 |
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What's the guarantee you'll get a second shot?
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April 28, 2024, 02:41 AM | #66 | ||
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None. Though I think we are much better off defensively today than when the very fastest guys could get off a second shot in about 20 seconds. Today's self defense handguns can fire a second shot as fast as you can pull the trigger. Faster than many can get back on target. Quote:
Studies are useful things, at least the ones that accurately report the data found, and yes, sometimes they do have unanticipated results. But when there is a result far enough outside the expected, one need to find out why. Skewed data?? some factor(s) present that were not present in other findings?? When a small caliber seems to out perform a larger one, in percentage of effectiveness, one needs to ask, why.
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April 28, 2024, 03:11 AM | #67 | |
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Here's a thought experiment. Let's imagine that there is a topic that is of extreme interest to many people--to those who find it important, they consider it literally a matter of life and death. It is also true that it is a topic of interest to many large and well-funded organizations. The topic comes down to whether A or B is better. It doesn't matter what 'A' is, it doesn't matter what 'B' is, we just want to know which is better. Because it's of interest, people study it. Organizations study it. Data is collected, studies are performed. This goes on for years. The problem is that no one can call a winner. People can quantify differences between A and B, in fact that is done to excruciating detail. But none of that seems to help. When it comes right down to practical performance in the real world, as opposed to parameters measured during controlled testing, no one seems to be able to show that one is better than the other. People keep trying. Organizations keep trying. Decades pass. Still no one can prove that one is better than the other in terms of pure practical application in the real world. People hold strong opinions, but the data collected and analysis performed doesn't support declaring a clear winner. Now, here's the part where the thought comes in. Which conclusion makes the most sense? 1. A and B provide significantly different performance in terms of pure practical application in spite of the fact that no one has been able to prove it. The lack of ability to show a practical difference means nothing, we just know that one is significantly better than the other in spite of the lack of proof. 2. If A and B really do perform differently in terms of pure practical application, the difference can't be significant or it would not be so difficult to find the evidence. The lack of ability to show the difference in the real world after decades of trying is adequate evidence that the difference can't be significant.
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April 28, 2024, 08:35 AM | #68 | |||
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I’m not really picking at this, people to consider the balance between practical accuracy, shot-to-shot speed and bullet performance. To me those are what gun/cartridge can I shoot 0.33s or better splits, place all shots on a paper plate at 7 yds and is the best bullet performance I’ll carry. Obviously cost of ownership keeps some rounds out of there. |
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April 28, 2024, 10:26 AM | #69 |
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Hmmmmm.........and if you shoot the attacker five times with your .22 as he's shooting you once with his .45...........
You lose. Why do we focus on the "one-shot stop?" Because that's the gold standard........that's the one that means you win. |
April 28, 2024, 10:46 AM | #70 | |
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This is similar to what happens when a witness in a criminal trial is caught in a lie. Suddenly his testimony is ALL suspect even if much of it may be valid. Good researchers eliminate the ridiculous and stick with solid facts. |
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April 28, 2024, 02:14 PM | #71 | ||||||
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There is data, and there are studies, and we have a good deal of knowledge about wound physiology. What all that shows with regard to self defense could be summarized as follows:
Let's consider how shooting someone will actually cause him to stop what he's doing.
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April 28, 2024, 02:25 PM | #72 | ||
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That would most likely be a "win" for the .22 shooter, don't you think?? Quote:
If the reasoning is "one shot is all you might get", then why don't people say "First shot stop"?? or "First hit stop" Isn't it nearly always one shot that actually does the stop?? When that one shot that does the stop is the 2nd, or 5th (or 11th ) HIT, it doesn't get counted as a "one shot stop". What about cases where the first shot actually stops the attack but the defender doesn't realize that and puts several more shots into the attacker, before they do?? Just some things to consider,,, Same sort of thing goes for various "studies", you rarely (like almost never) get the full information about the data used. Consider all the things that could be involved in the "raw data" that get tossed out, or "filtered out" because of the perameters set by the researchers, or simply not available to the researchers, which, if included, might have a significant bearing on the results. Showing HOW he numbers work out (as statistical percentages) doesn't tell us WHY the numbers worked out that way, unless the researchers make a point of explaining that, which, they rarely do. As a hypothetical example, say you have a study where the data shows the .32auto rated 71% one shot stops, and the 9mm rated 58% one shot stops. Not what one would expect, but the data (as far as it goes) is clear and the math is correct. Why did the results turn out that way??? Some POSSIBLE explanations are sample size, and the various and numerous factors involved in the actual shootings studied. To illustrate my point I'm going to use some extreme numbers, to make the concept easier to see. Say you've got 800 cases of 9mm shootings, and only 136 for the .32 auto. That can have an effect on percentages. Say the 9mm data covers shootings distances from 0 to 20 yards, and the .32 data is 0 to 15 FEET. Another point which could have a significant effect on the statistics. Those are just two of the host of factors that can affect the statistical results, but we don't see those things, when all we get given is the percentages on a graph and the conclusions in accompanying text. The point I'm trying to make is that studies should not be accepted as holy writ, at face value as accurate predictors of anything more than general trends and sometimes not even that. I know of a case where a guy had to defend himself two separate times, one time, he used 9mm FMJ and the other time he used .45ACP FMJ. His results were identical. "I shot him twice, and he fell down". For that guy, the effectiveness of both rounds was 100%. They did the job he relied on them to do, so he considered them equal. We know the common self defense rounds all work, and we know that sometimes, all have failed. There is no magic bullet or caliber. In the end, don't all the statistics boil down to 50/50? either it works, or it doesn't, and that depends on ALL the factors and varies, sometimes hugely between each individual shooting.
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April 28, 2024, 02:58 PM | #73 | |
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It was unacceptably amateurish. There are plenty of good studies around that give us good information. The only caution is that we have to examine them with care before accepting. |
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April 28, 2024, 03:11 PM | #74 | ||
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I've been interested in this topic for decades. I would love to see something that, based on the outcome of real-world shootings, points to a clear winner out of the service pistol performance class. Urey Patrick's paper, back in 1989 contained an offhand statement suggesting that caliber differences might make a difference in the outcome of 1% of shootings. I thought that was interesting given the context of the paper. It's been a long time since I read that paper for the first time, and I've not seen anyone provide any data to contradict his offhand estimate. In fact, I think, if anything, he may have overestimated the effect... Please note the emphasis in the statement--"based on the outcome of real-world shootings". It is critical. I'm well aware of the measurable/quantifiable differences in the various calibers, whether they are measured in penetration, expansion, momentum, energy, power factor, TKO, RII, etc., etc. Those are all interesting, but if it's not possible to show that those differences are having a significant effect on the outcome of real world shootings, they are meaningless. What everyone really wants to know is how much of an advantage/disadvantage they will have in a gunfight based on the terminal performance of the service pistol caliber they choose compared to the other ones they could choose. That's where the rubber meets the road. Quote:
How can the difference be significant if it's so hard to see in the actual results that no one can find it? How long should we go on making excuses for why something we claim is significant doesn't seem to have a significant effect on the outcome of gunfights? How long are we supposed to go on choosing a winner even though it doesn't seem to provide any advantage in real-world gunfights?
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April 28, 2024, 03:27 PM | #75 | |
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The other key point is that the shooters are even less uniform and predictable than the cartridges. There are days when my body responds to orders with "It ain't gonna happen." Days when my body simply is not going to rack that slide, perform the failure day, hold the handgun steady, return quickly to POI for followup with many of my handguns. On those days my Ruger LCPII 22lr Lite Rack or Walther CCP 380 M2 or Walther PK380 that my body says "Can do" have a far higher likelihood of stopping an assailant than my 1911 or P220 or Highway Patrolman that my body says "It ain't gonna happen". Self Defense is a lot like real estate; the three most important things are location, Location, LOCATION. Hits on target count. Multiple hits on target get a higher score. Multiple hits on target rapidly are even better. Even for the same individual there really is no single right answer and he best we can do is to find the solution available to use that is appropriate for that individual on that day in that moment.
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