|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 1, 2001, 04:20 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2000
Location: Moscow on the Colorado, TX
Posts: 2,560
|
I think this subject was discussed before, but I was unable to find it in a search.......
Man who went to dog's defense now faces felony charges Doug Grow / Star Tribune If a dog is man's best friend, what can a man reasonably do to protect a dog's life? Consider the case of a Dakota County man, John Christoffel, who is facing a felony charge because of actions he took in trying to defend a dog that was being bludgeoned to death by a man with a sledgehammer. Animal rights activists have embraced Christoffel, 19, for actions he took Dec. 17. But the Dakota County attorney's office doesn't see Christoffel as heroic. It has charged him with making terroristic threats, while holding a .22 caliber rifle. Meantime, the man who killed the dog has been charged with a misdemeanor, cruelty to animals. "Sometimes, the law seems perverted," said Larry Leventhal, Christoffel's attorney. "Look at the comparative wrongs in this case. One is facing time in prison for trying to protect the life of a friend. And one receives no more than a traffic ticket for this killing, a murder really." A bill pending in the current legislative session would make some animal cruelty offenses felonies. At the time of the incident, Christoffel was living with his mother, Linda Christoffel, in Inver Grove Heights. He was a friend of a neighbor and the neighbor's dog, Precious, a two-year-old German shepard/husky mix. Last December, Precious' owner died and the dog was temporarily left in the care of the late owner's fiancee, who continued to reside next door to the Christoffels. Though it was living with the fiancee, the dog legally had become property of the late man's father. On Dec. 17, the dog showed up at the Christoffels' house with a cut paw. Paddy Theis, Linda Christoffel's fiance, called the late owner's father, telling him the dog was hurt. The man assured Theis that he would take care of Precious and sent a family member to deal with the dog. The man sent to care for Precious, apparently on his own, decided the best way to solve the paw problem was to kill the dog. He took the dog to the late owner's garage and, he told police, covered its head with a plastic bag and started swinging the sledge. "I took it upon myself because my father-in-law's been talking about bringing it to the humane society to have the dog put away," the man told Inver Grove Heights police. "... I just figured, hey, this is the cheapest way out." The fiancee of the late dog owner heard what was happening to Precious, unsuccessfully tried to get the man to stop and raced to the Christoffels' house. When they heard the horror story, Theis, followed by John Christoffel, raced next door, hoping to rescue Precious. Harsh words were exchanged and, according to Theis and Christoffel, the man with the sledgehammer made threatening gestures toward them. Christoffel ran back to his home, yelling at the man with the sledge and telling him that police were going to be called. Police were called but before they arrived, Christoffel returned with his rifle and says he told the man "You want to play games, we'll play games." The man with the sledge claims that Christoffel also threatened him with large hunting knives, a charge Christoffel denied. In retrospect, Christoffel, who has no criminal record, regrets bringing a rifle into the chaos. "I know that pulling out a gun is pretty serious," he said. "I regret that, but I just couldn't believe what was happening." Leventhal is preparing motions to have the case against Christoffel dismissed for a variety of technical reasons. To date, pretrial hearings have been delayed twice and the Dakota County attorney has dropped a threat to add two felony assault charges against Christoffel. But that one felony charge hangs over Christoffel's head and stirs the passions of animal lovers. Leventhal wrote in a letter to me that, if this case goes to trial he will be going where few, if any, lawyers have gone before. "Christoffel intends to defend this matter on the basis that he acted reasonably, and that he had a right to use necessary force in defense of another," Leventhal wrote. "While we have not located cases that allow the use of weapons to defend a dog, we believe that this well-recognized doctrine should be expanded to include such reasonable conduct. Precious was not only a neighborhood dog, she was a friend of John's, and John acted to protect her life." -- Doug Grow is at [email protected] . http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/...Story=84029096 |
May 1, 2001, 04:47 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
|
Where are all those greenines who believe animal rights supercede human rights, when we need them?
|
May 1, 2001, 05:07 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,060
|
If he shot the bastard, none of this would be news.
|
May 1, 2001, 05:27 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 6, 2001
Location: Urban Montana?
Posts: 304
|
There are some sick sons-of-b$ches in this world. I'd have done the same thing. But the guy would have been looking down the barrel of my .44 mag. There are many humans in this world who deserve a sledge hammer to the brain, but I can think of few animals who do...
|
May 1, 2001, 06:24 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 20, 2000
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 1,198
|
Though I am not a "tree hugger", I believe that this young man acted honorably.
As a side note, years ago my father, who was stationed at Camp Lejeune as a Corpsman, drove by a house where a man had spitted several german shepard/wolf puppies to the front yard with arrows shot from a hunting bow. The dog he took home, Tiger, was the last surviving puppy from that litter. Anyway, when my Dad saw what was happening, he immediately jumped out of the car and beat the holy **** out of the guy. Some really whacked-out people in this world. The stories that I can tell you about my time as a mental health technician while putting myself through school.... |
May 1, 2001, 07:30 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Garland, Texas
Posts: 724
|
Damn that is a harsh way to put any aminal down.
|
May 1, 2001, 07:41 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 13, 2001
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 2,307
|
I think that is a terrible way to put an animal down, but regardless, you can't go to the defense of an animal that does not belong to you. You definitely cannot go to another persons residence with a weapon and threaten him.
The police should have been called, yes- I know the animal may have been dead by then, but the young man would not have felony charges against him either. Don't get me wrong- I love my Corgi and would defend her, but by law it isn't the same as a human. Hell..you really want to get him?..he should have raced back and got his video camera instead of a weapon. I bet the local news would have loved to get a copy of the tape and would make enough of a stink for the guy to get some serious charges against him, to include any threats he may make to the videotaper. Red |
May 1, 2001, 09:13 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 7, 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 354
|
My brother is sitting here with me, and we can't believe that anyone would be sick enough to beat a dog to death.
An eye for an eye? I'd like to hear the explanation to the court, on why he thought a sledgehammer was the best way to put down old Precious. Is pointing a gun at him the solution? Probably not, but we'd like to vent our emotional response. We would have taken the sledgehammer from him, and ....... The videotaping idea is a good one. |
May 1, 2001, 09:44 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 20, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 939
|
This old boy has no patience whatsoever with any sort of human debris that would abuse a dog (one of the finest, most loyal animals to ever grace this planet). Christoffel acted with more restraint than I probably would have.
I'd like to see how this jacka$$ takes to getting whacked with a sledge hammer a few dozen times himself. I say pin a medal on Christoffel and drop sledghammer man naked and handcuffed into the middle of the Everglades -- in August. END OF RANT |
May 1, 2001, 11:19 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Posts: 511
|
Funny how if you kick a LEO dog its considered felony assault on a police officer while my pooch dont even deserve protection from a loonie. I guess EVERY govmt employee is special while we are just POS's that pay taxes. Sad fact that the laws we have to deal with are messed up. The guy should have quietly pissed loonie bird off enough to get him to come at him with the hammer and then capped him.w
|
May 2, 2001, 12:51 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2001
Location: Mississippi Delta
Posts: 635
|
I have a higher opinion of most dogs than I do of most people.
The Christoffel boy did good not knee-capping the trashy SOB. BTW, if I were the kid's attorney, I'd play up the fact that the rifle was brought out only after physical threats wee made by the hammer weilder. I hope the kid gets off. Doc Hudson |
May 2, 2001, 01:08 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2000
Posts: 265
|
I am not exactly sure of the law in that area (that's an understatement! ) but in my state animal abuse is now a felony and force *maybe* used to stop the actions of an abuser is the way that the law was explained to me.
If it was my American Bulldog, she wouldn't have allowed the man to even attempt to swing the sledge. But should something be amiss with Jenny, that man would have been dead. By law I can use force in protecting my dog from assault and not face any criminal charges. I might step on his face while he's laying there dying also. Present company not included, Jenny is of higher virtue then most humans. Derek |
May 2, 2001, 01:08 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 22, 2000
Location: Peoples Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Posts: 1,562
|
When the LEOs arrive, how would they have stopped the dog beating?
__________________
~USP "[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998 |
May 2, 2001, 02:50 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 24, 1999
Location: orlando fl
Posts: 751
|
all I can say is nobody messes with my dog.
I think the boy did good. I'll chip in $20 for his defense. |
May 2, 2001, 03:00 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 25, 1999
Posts: 3,147
|
Oh my. An excellent question.
What I would probably do is get close enough to ascertain exactly what was a happening. Now that I'm close enough to see that yes, this man is bludgeoning a dog to death with a sledgehammer, I can also see that he is possibly a threat to other nearby life forms (read: me). I would draw my sidearm (if I had not already) and order him to desist immediately and drop the sledgehammer. If he failed to do so very rapidly, well...I can articulate the imminent threat of grave physical harm to myself coupled with a failure to obey verbal commands. I love dogs- he might not get very long to think about it. This is really, truly sick. If I were the DA I would offer the kid a plea bargain- jaywalking with a $25 fine seem about right? Also, as a LEO and one who lives in a trashy neighborhood, I have had to give some thought to protecting my dog. We have had a spate of dog-fightings lately- a guy with pit bull was going around opening the back gates of yards and letting his dog attack the dogs inside, then leaving with his dog before the police could arrive. Naturally, dogs are property and you can't use force to protect property *sigh*. So I thought through how I would handle another dog attacking my own dog. I feel as a pet owner you have the responsibility to protect your pet...so, I would run to the aid of my dog, and try to pull the other dog off. Foolish! The dog would naturally attack me, right? Right. BOOM. Mike
__________________
The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein |
May 2, 2001, 10:16 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 1999
Posts: 966
|
Coronach- Thanks for reminding me. I sat here thinking what the h*** would I do, if I came upon that my dog or not. Then you pointed out dogs are property.
Thank God I live in Texas. As we have argued about before, and pointed out many times. We lucky Texans can shoot rotten bastards to protect property. |
May 3, 2001, 11:56 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 1,014
|
Several years ago when I took my first CCW class, the Chief of Police (who conducted the class), was very careful to point out that when one intervenes in a situation where a crime is being committed but there is no direct threat to life - a situation as described above. The ONLY solid defense is to claim that you were effecting an arrest.
All citizens (except perhaps in a few very socialist states that have specifically legislated away a citizens rights), have the right to make an arrest. In fact, citizen arrests are not bound by many of the legal restrictions of LEO arrests - you are not held to the same level of probable cause, don't have to worry about Miranda, etc. I don't care what you've been told, you CAN intervene with a firearm to stop a crime (and even use deadly force if the situation turns bad), in situations where there is not a direct threat to human life (yours or someone elses). Buyer beware: Having a legal criminal defense will likely not avail you when the inevitable civil trial comes along. But if you find yourself in that situation, your best defense is to say "I was placing the person under arrest".
__________________
Keith |
May 3, 2001, 02:53 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 25, 1999
Posts: 3,147
|
In Ohio citizens are allowed to arrest for felonies, but not misdemeanors (so saith the Ohio Revised Code). Check yer local laws and make sure.
Either way, I would think you had an argument that you were acting in good faith, so long as you could reasonably state that you THOUGHT the activity you witnessed was a felony...but IMNAL, YMMV, IMHO, IIRC, etc... Mike
__________________
The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein |
May 3, 2001, 03:41 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,802
|
I'm not a lawyer, but correct me if I'm wrong. The guy was beating the dog, and threatened Christoffel with the hammer. Christoffel left the scene, and RETURNED with his rifle. Seems to me, thast here is where they have him. He was in harms way, and left. If he'd had the rifle before he left, I don't think they would have charged him, but he went back, ergo a felony. The problem is, he went back.
Don't get me wrong, I'm on his side, but the law isn't. Hell. If I was on his jury, they'd aquit him if I had to beat every other juror bloody. Besides, I know jury nullification and won't hesitate to use it in such a case. Paul B. |
May 3, 2001, 05:26 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 9, 2001
Posts: 1,977
|
It is so sad that our society has become so congested with laws that the people who should be protected under the law are not. And those who should not be protected are protected. I think Mr. Christoffel did the right thing...even if it is "illegal"
|
May 3, 2001, 05:37 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,069
|
It's funny. At one time in this country you could hang for STEALING someones horse.
Go Figure! |
May 4, 2001, 10:48 AM | #22 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
I guess in Dakota County, if I decide to start bashing a police dog with a sledgehammer, his/her partner isn't allowed to shoot me.
|
May 4, 2001, 10:59 AM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Posts: 1,080
|
Aw, come on you bleeding hearts. It's JUST A DOG. One smack with that hammer and it would have been mostly over. It would have been better to shoot it, but I'm sure that would have violated local laws. You guys are all about to join PETA over this.
|
May 4, 2001, 04:44 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 20, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 939
|
"Aw, come on you bleeding hearts. It's JUST A DOG. One smack with that hammer and it would have been mostly over."
Thanks for that post. I'll at it to my list as yet another reason I prefer dogs to an awful lot of people in this world. |
May 4, 2001, 08:45 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Posts: 1,080
|
GSB, the road you are on leads to PETER SINGER and nowhere else. What is the difference between killing an animal yourself and having someone else do it? It's more honest to do it yourself, but otherwise I can't see much distinction. Why, then, are we filled with murderous rage when we hear about a man beating a dog to death to save money? Would we want to kill him if he had taken the dog to the vet and had it put down, as thousands do every day? I recently had to kill a beloved, loyal pet. I was indeed pinched for money at the time, and I thought seriously about just taking her out and shooting her (thankfully this is an option where I live). I would hate to think some idiot would have had a right to stop me, had I chosen to take matters into my own hands. I would also hate to think some yinyang fool would have a right to keep me from hunting, but that's EXACTLY where your line of reasoning leads.
|
|
|