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May 4, 2024, 01:51 PM | #126 |
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I’ve seen people die from a single .22 round, and seen people survive multiple shots from a .45
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May 4, 2024, 06:42 PM | #127 |
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May 5, 2024, 01:00 PM | #128 | |
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May 5, 2024, 01:26 PM | #129 | |
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But........the FBI has a lot of experience in choosing firearms, maybe even more than some of us..........and their choice has to be something that will work for a general cross section of human beings. The 1986 Miami shootout was instructive.........the 9mm slug that stopped just an inch or two short of the heart of the killer who went on to blow away several agents. Apparently they trust today's ammo more than what was available at that time. This link has some good info on the history that informs the FBI........it's a lot. https://www.pewpewtactical.com/fbi-guns-ammo-history/ |
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May 5, 2024, 01:30 PM | #130 |
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May 7, 2024, 10:00 AM | #131 |
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For many, many years my primary CCW cartridge has been .38 Special in a Smith & Wesson J frame Centennial.
My other primary has been a Taurus PT-22 in .22 Long Rifle. Yes, I have carried other guns over the years, chambered in .357 Mag, 9mm, and .32 ACP. I've felt suitably armed with each of them. Why? Two reasons. 1. I know the guns are reliable in service. 2. I know that I can handle them well and hit with them repeatedly at likely combat distances.
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May 7, 2024, 07:43 PM | #132 |
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After extensive research I’ve found with 100% certainty that the best caliber for self defense is the one you have with you (as opposed to the one you left at home).
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May 7, 2024, 07:58 PM | #133 |
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May 8, 2024, 03:42 PM | #134 |
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well, i think: there should be some questions asked first.
1. are you going to practice with the weapon more than one box full of ammo in a life time ? this will indicate the probable cleaning and care rutine, which will in turn indicate the action type and style of gun to reccomend. 2. can you handle _____ cal weapons... this will indicate the upper end limitations. 3. are you willing to have the weapon taken away from you and used on you, if you make a stupid mistake with it... (try to bluff with it...) this will hopefully cause the person asking the question, to think about the consequences of as well as the responsibilities of carring a weapon. 3. what caliber do you like ? and that will settle the issue for most people. just remember "senior members" while we are not a few, we may very well be the minority in the gun owners community. just one more thing, when i think about caring my 1911 45acp i remind myself "it's not about the odds, it's about the stakes" the odds are you wont need it. the stakes are life and death.
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May 9, 2024, 12:47 PM | #135 | |
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Also stated was "all my other pistols have been 9mm" so the OP is not unfamiliar with handgun ownership, and the basic questions beginners need to ask and answer. For me, the .45ACP is better. I never cared for the .40S&W, and don't own any. Yes, I have shot them, just didn't find them to do anything I didn't already have well covered, and that I had well covered for 30+ years before the .40S&W existed. I'm not a cop. I'm not the FBI. Haven't been a solider in 45+ years. I don't need a round that "most people" can use, I don't need a round that works best for a law enforcement organization's rank and file. What I need is what works best, for me, and the .45ACP covers every base, more than well enough. Feel free to disagree.
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May 10, 2024, 05:25 AM | #136 |
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For me it would be a 9mm with 124+P or my 40 S&W with 155 Silver Tips, depending on my mood
Although, my new Father’s Day present, a Ruger LC CARBINE 45 does kinda muddy the waters |
May 10, 2024, 10:16 AM | #137 |
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May 10, 2024, 11:58 AM | #138 |
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None of my other guns are immunized!
Don’t want them catching something they can’t get rid of. |
May 12, 2024, 07:35 PM | #139 |
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You're never going to get a satisfactory answer to this question because there isn't even a consensus on what makes a given caliber effective or ineffective, much less which one is most or least effective. Also, even if there were a consensus about which caliber is most effective, nothing exists in a vacuum and other attributes besides the caliber play into what is a good or poor choice of defensive handgun. For example, I have little doubt that a center-of-mass hit with a .500 S&W Magnum would probably be very effective in incapacitating most people, but a great many people cannot handle the huge amount of recoil nor do they want to tote around the massive revolver necessary to fire such a cartridge. Conversely, most would agree that .22 Long Rifle is pretty low on anyone's list of effective personal protection calibers, but a great many people still choose to rely on them because they can be had in very small, light guns and the guns and ammunition are widely available and modestly priced.
IMHO, trying to compare two calibers of similar power like .40 S&W and .45 ACP often boils down to splitting hairs. The way I view it, handgun cartridges can be divided into three basic categories and cartridges within those categories generally behave pretty similarly to each other. The categories are, in ascending order of power, pocket pistols/mouse guns like .22 LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, etc. Service calibers like 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc. and Magnums like .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull etc. There are also calibers that can be considered "transitionary" in that, depending on the individual loading and barrel length, they can straddle the line between one category and another. Examples of calibers that straddle the line between "mouse gun" and "service caliber" would be .380 ACP and .38 Special and examples which straddle the line between "service caliber" and "magnum" would be .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto. If I think about it long enough, I could probably make a logical, if not compelling, case for circumstances in which about any caliber from .22 Long Rifle up to .44 Magnum would be a reasonable choice for personal protection. Most of the calibers we're talking about have been around for at least 30 years, and many for over 100 years, they wouldn't still be available today if they weren't useful. |
May 13, 2024, 10:00 AM | #140 | |
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The question was posed as "Best Caliber for Self Defense." Note that it doesn't say "most deadly" or "most cost-effective" or "most accurate" or "most shootable." None of these details are included........it just has to be the best on average over a wide spectrum of conditions. So, it's not a black and white issue, but one where the shades of gray must all be considered and a reasonable and practical conclusion reached. Thus the obvious answer is a round that works best for a wide variety of people and is cost-effective, reasonably accurate, has sufficient power and is widely available off the shelf and in a good variety of handguns that make it convenient to carry (either concealed or on duty). It helps to reach this decision if this round is now gradually being adopted by the majority of law enforcement agencies because they favor it over the failed .40 S&W that was once thought to be the best all around choice for armed combat. The clear and satisfactory answer is the 9mm Parabellum. Parabellum' is Latin. It's the second half of a Latin phrase. 'Si vis pacem, para bellum.' It's basically, If you want peace, then [prepare for] war. So, parabellum can be interpreted as "prepare for war." Aptly named. And many view it that way, for it is the most widely used wartime pistol cartridge in the history of the world. I say this in full awareness that there are many recalcitrants like myself who will obstinately choose the .45 ACP or even the .22 LR as best (for them). That is neither here nor there and not pertinent to the question posed by this thread. |
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May 13, 2024, 10:25 AM | #141 |
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May 13, 2024, 10:31 AM | #142 |
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May 13, 2024, 06:43 PM | #143 | ||
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The usual translation of Parabellum" is "for war".
I'm not going to war. Quote:
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Taking a general response to the title, based on your self imposed criteria does not answer the actual question posed.
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May 13, 2024, 07:07 PM | #144 | |
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What percentage of this thread has been dedicated to the question of .40 vs. .45??? |
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May 13, 2024, 07:07 PM | #145 |
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I once spoke with a retired corrections officer and he said he had seen many inmates who survived being shot with 9mm. He said he never really saw any inmates that survive being shot with .45ACP.
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May 13, 2024, 07:22 PM | #146 | |
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May 13, 2024, 08:32 PM | #147 |
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The caliber argument is a waste of time.
It's like asking which pot cooks chicken the best. The answer is always the same.....for both the gun and the pot. It's the one you are most comfortable using, the one you will use consistently and will use it until you master it. It doesn't matter what caliber or what pot you use if your are more worried about opinions than your ability to use it. |
May 14, 2024, 12:45 PM | #148 | |
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What one will do, the other will do, except for maybe barriers. I like the single-stack Glock G36 slimline .45 ACP for EDC, and the Dbl-stack Glock G23.4 .40 for the field or for the wrong part of town. Both are a good choice. Red |
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May 14, 2024, 03:06 PM | #149 | ||||
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I really don't care what works best for a wide variety of people as I'm not a wide variety of people, so I'm more concerned with what works best for me. Also, because I handload nearly every caliber I own, I'm not all that concerned with cost effectiveness or off-the-shelf availability because I am less dependent on such factors than someone who is reliant on factory ammo. I really don't care whether a given caliber is available in a good variety of handguns either, only if it's available in a handgun that works well for me. Quote:
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May 14, 2024, 03:15 PM | #150 |
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My son is an emergency physician and worked in Northern Ohio during his residency and has seen single .22 l.r rounds being lethal while multiple hits with 9mm and .40 SW were survived. Even head shots.
It should be noted that the 9mm and .40 were FMJ and that lethality and incapacitation are not exactly the same. Being able to perform the Bil Drill successfully with a 9mm is probably better than slow fire ( one shot per second ) and misses from a .45 ACP or .44 Rem Mag. |
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