5000 rifles turned in in Maryland? - Page 2

SquirrelNuts · October 17, 2002, 05:29 PM

When social security numbers were originally assigned, they were NEVER to be used as a form of identification. I use my SSN every day at work four times, I use it every day at school, and I use it at least once a week for other purposes. This certainly violates what the number was created for. Do we see a pattern here with govt. run entities? The ATF form is being used for purposes other than it was created for...

-SquirrelNuts

Krautgunner · October 17, 2002, 05:48 PM

These are very disturbing incidents!

Is the state of Maryland degenerating into a police state???

Even in my gun-hostile country, such a behavior by police agents or government officials is inconceivable.

moa · October 17, 2002, 05:52 PM

If the Feds and other political entities can get away with this stuff for the high profile sniper case, then it is a template for all future gun related crimes.

Comb the databases and 4473 forms for firearms in particular caliber, and confiscate them for purposes of "test firing". Bring in a small army of ATF, FBI, etc, a scour the courtryside.

I think if a lot more people knew about this now, it might have a favorable affect on the up coming mid-term elections.

NRA, GOA, etc., should be acting right now. People also should be contacting their elected representatives immediately.

We may need more concrete information first as events unfold, so say tuned.

delectric · October 17, 2002, 06:06 PM

Just what part of NO! Don't the people of the once great State of MD understand, has the education level within MD dropped to an all time low? Has the collective IQ of these people slipped that low as to surrender their private property? If you as a citizen of MD think that you are a little more secure by surrendering your firearms, you deserve what you get, a POLICE STATE.
Now if you have any INTESTINAL FORTITUDE at all, seek out a State Court Judge and a good Constitutional lawyer and at once seek a restraining order. It your liberty, and you are setting a presidense..... your SILENCE IS YOUR AFFIRMATION!

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 06:19 PM

I'm very doubtful of this. The media would be all over this story. They posted that a man in PA was investigated because he bought a .223 rifle with a bad check a month ago.

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/n...ws/261050.html

I could believe that they siezed 50 rifles, but not 5000. This is a murder investigation and the only evidence so far is the bullet pulled out of the victims. They should be able to figure out the rifling from the recovered rounds and be able to narrow down the possible rifles. They would be crazy to not use firearm purchase databases to not obtain a list of persons that purchased those types of rifles. If someone purchased an accurized AR-15 2 days before the shooting starts, wouldn't you investigate that person?

Seriously, I highly doubt this story - at least the numbers mentioned. Actually, I hope that the police is doing their job and checking weapons of people that are "highly suspect".

Don't forget that a lot of this "their gonna take your gun" crap is spread around before elections. It's good for the conservative candidate because he/she doesn't need to do anything other than spread inuendo of gun control and they'll pick up votes. Who cares if they don't have a clue and no stance on any real issues.

I'm an NRA member, but sometimes I just wish they were a little more moderate. I guess I'm a member but not a blind supporter.

Just an opinion -- and I really do like guns.

Thumper · October 17, 2002, 06:28 PM

Cyber, welcome to TFL.

You may in fact be an NRA member, but your statements concerning firearms and the prosecution of investigations make it obvious that you get a lot of your info from the media. You might do a little more research before you post.

No offense, but is English your mother tongue or are you one of our new foreign guests?

TallPine · October 17, 2002, 06:45 PM

I am an NRA member, but sometimes (always) I wish they were a **** of a lot less moderate (wishy-washy sell outs).

How about enforcing the Second Amendment (still the highest law in the land the last time I checked) instead of existing unconstitutional gun laws?

Warning to ATF et al: don't try this in Montana.

Jbar4Ranch · October 17, 2002, 07:04 PM

TallPine, by the time it gets to us, with only about 800,000 residents in this entire state, it'll be waaaay to late to do much. ATF should be being told, "Don't try this in the United States of America."

MikeK · October 17, 2002, 07:34 PM

Yahoo has a breif mention of it.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=135618

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 07:46 PM

Sorry Thumper, I'll try to edit my posts in the future. I guess I should have written with more of a drawl. (Pun intended)

A little perspective -- I'm from Maryland but grew up in the "country" in Pennsylvania. I remember in high school (mid 80'2) there would always be a couple shotguns or rifles in the gun racks of pickups during hunting season. Nobody thought anything of it. Times sure have changed. Now you're expelled for the infamous plastic knife in your lunch.

Now I live in the 'burbs of Maryland. I'm glad it's not easy to get handguns here. There's an entirely different way of thinking here. In PA, you could let your car doors unlocked and fully expect that nothing would happen. Not so here. There's a small percentage of the population (and I'm not on a white pride, racist soap box - there are cacasians in that group) that ruin the entire environment. You can trust 95% of the people, but the 5% probably wouldn't think twice about "capping" you if they knew they would get away with it and your wallet. You can argue that if law abiding citizens could carry concealed weapons then the robbers would think twice. That might work in some areas, but I doubt it would be effective here in Maryland. Most of the people would never carry firearms.

Back in PA, I have an inlaw that carrys a Walther PPK when he goes for a walk in a very quiet development, in a very quiet town that has a violent crime once every 10 years. I don't hink he will have much opportunity to pull the gun in self defense. (Plus we know he really should be carrying a .45.)

TallPine and Jbar4Ranch: You might find this humorous -- at work we joke about starting "New Montana". The plan is to take over Montana, kick out all the undesirables and then start over with a society based on personal responsibility. Montana seems like a good location because of the relatively few undesireables and it's room for expansion. But the drawback is that it sounds too much like a plan Hitler might have come up with.

Sorry for the tangents, but if they are looking for a specific model or two of firearms that could have been used in the shootings I think it's more responsible of a firearm owner to support the investigation than to waste time in the investigation by pulling legal maneuvers. The firearms should be returned within a week. Of course, my opinion changes if they are confiscating all .223 firearms, but I really don't think that's the case.

RKCheung · October 17, 2002, 08:19 PM

Cyber-

From your last post it seems that you don't support the second amendment. You approve of additional laws restricting RKBA and disregard the rights of law abiding citizens. Are you sure you're an NRA member?

frequencydrive · October 17, 2002, 08:21 PM

What is "Molon Labe"? I must really be out of the loop here.

dischord · October 17, 2002, 08:25 PM

cybersnyder,

I'm thinking of moving to Maryland. Do you prefer the Boegmann's grocery food chain or the SavaLots?

frequencydrive · October 17, 2002, 08:28 PM

I don't give a dam if the BATF calls or not. I will hang up on them and move all my guns out of the house. Well except for my trusty .45, which stays permanently attached to my waist. There is so *ucking way I would turn in any god dam gun to F-troop. I can't believe that they have collected 5000 guns from people. Unless they show me a warrant or bust down my door that is the only way I'm giving my guns up so they can "test" them. I believe there is little truth to this story. I do believe, maybe, the ATF, called a few people but 5000? No way. Well, eh, I HOPE it's not true. Like they say, give'em the ammo first.

edited for spelling

stevie_d_64 · October 17, 2002, 08:30 PM

What interested me in this forum was this topic...So I decided to register and join the crowd...

I must say I am a bit amazed that this story has yet to come up on the radar in any of the numerous updates to this "sniper story" on any network...But I am not surprised...Blatant abuses to our rights have always been hangin out there waiting for an opportunity to be implemented...

If the BATF is throwing the blanket far and wide on this one, the excellent advice from other in this thread should be pursued...I cannot add anything of value than what has already been suggested...

Refusal of a request over the phone is not a crime in any State, I'd get that lawyer and advise him of what is going on...They will tell you what you need to do...

As far as those knocks on the door...Unless there is a warrant in hand and shown to you, I'd refuse the inquiry and show them nothing, regardless of how respectful all parties involved are concerned...

Force them to do the legwork...The burden is on them, not you...

At this point I feel they are grabbing at straws...They have nothing on this case, and are just flexing to look like they are doing something...

Now I am not ragging on Law Enforcement, there are a few involved who are doing the best they can, but this is going to be a long haul investigation unless somebody gets lucky...

This confiscation story needs the light of day thrown on it, or it will not garner a lot of sympathy from anyone on the fringe of the issue at hand...

I'm always encouraged by the enthusiasm in crowds like this, it lets me know I can alway access and get information I and others need to keep this all in perspective...

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 08:48 PM

RKCheung,

Don't get me wrong, I support the 2nd ammendment and I am an NRA member. I don't think you'll see me on the cover of American Rifleman anytime soon though. I really like their education programs which is why I'm a member. I don't like the fact that they are a 6 million strong political powerhouse that uses their weight to distort real issues by screaming 2nd ammendment right, even if it's not a real issue in a particular race. Make no doubt about it, they are a little more than just a magazine producing, shooting information resource. I don't like the fact that all that political muscle is in the hands of a few directors.

What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit. The reason is that the people that would "carry" here are not the people you would want to have firearms. That said, there are times when I hit an ATM late at night and would like to have my Glock under my coat.

I remember my first gun show. Probably more firepower than some small countries. I was wondering if that was what our fore fathers had in mind. They were concerned with being able to bear arms so that a foreign power (Britian) could not occupy the new country and they really didn't have an Armed Forces at the time. It was the citizen soldier that was the basis of our ability to fight against foreign oppression. That's why we needed firearms in the hands of the citizens. I'm not convinced they wanted every man, woman and child to carry a high capacity 9mm everywhere they go.

So, yeah I support the right to own firearms. I'm not a big fan of concealed carry mostly because of where I live. In some areas, concealed carry works.

I definitely support the 2nd ammendment, I just think that sometimes it is twisted into something other than what was intended by the writers of the Constitution.

Just an opinion and I certainly respect yours.

Dex Sinister · October 17, 2002, 08:50 PM

Relevant sections in bold

See end of article

Dex }:>=-
==========================

The Associated Press State & Local Wire

The materials in the AP file were compiled by The Associated Press. These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press.
October 17, 2002, Thursday, BC cycle

4:53 PM Eastern Time

SECTION: State and Regional

LENGTH: 636 words

HEADLINE: Sniper investigators: Witness gave fake story about shooter, van, weapon

BYLINE: By STEPHEN MANNING, Associated Press Writer

DATELINE: ROCKVILLE, Md.

BODY:
A witness who described the Washington sniper, his assault rifle and his cream-colored van gave police a phony story, investigators said Thursday in a setback that casts doubt on much of what the public thought it knew about the roving killer.

Prosecutors said the witness could face charges. His name was not immediately released.

Fairfax County police Lt. Amy Lubas said the inaccurate account was exposed by checking it against that of other witnesses to Monday night's killing of an FBI cyberterrorism analyst in a crowded Virginia parking lot outside a Home Depot. It was the only shooting so far that people actually saw. Asked if the witness may have intentionally misled investigators, Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose, who is heading the investigation, said simply, "Yes."

Investigators had showed a certain optimism after the latest attack seemed to yield the best details yet about the killer. But that gave way to anger Thursday.

Moose said there was no credence to the witness' description of the cream-colored van with a burned-out rear taillight. And while Moose did not give the witness' exact description of the shooter, he chastised reporters for running reports that variously described the gunman as dark-skinned, olive-skinned, Middle Eastern or Hispanic.

"When we have people from the media interviewing witnesses and publishing reports, we get confusion," Moose said. "We get this noise ... out there that gives people tunnel vision and makes them focus in on things that are not appropriate. ... We would like to be able to do our job."

Moose said the witness' emphatic description of the shooter's AK-74 assault rifle is also bogus. But investigators cautioned that they still believe the sniper is using one of a family of more than 30 similar assault-type weapons capable of firing a .223-caliber bullet.

"The message we're trying to say is please keep an open mind," Moose said. "People saw a description of a weapon over the last day and a half and we're convinced they eliminated people they know because they say, 'Their gun is not the weapon I saw in the paper."'

Moose said the disclosure of the fake story, coming a day after investigators said they were unable to draw a composite sketch, was hardly a setback. He said investigators were still chasing leads and he stood by previous composite drawings of vehicles witnesses reported seeing leaving the attacks: a white box truck and a Chevrolet Astro van or Ford Econoline van.

Since Oct. 2, there have been 11 shootings in Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C., that have left nine people dead and two wounded. One of the wounded, a 13-year-old boy shot outside his school in Bowie, Md., was upgraded Thursday from critical to serious condition. The other wounded person, a woman in Virginia, was released from a hospital last week.

The victims were men and women of varying ages and ethnic backgrounds, each hit with a single bullet while going about everyday activities. A tarot death card left at one scene was inscribed: "Dear Policeman, I am God."

Law enforcement sources said the investigation by federal, state and local authorities has led to information about a number of people with high-powered guns, both legally and illegally owned.

A firearms safety instructor said the FBI has been asking registered owners of .223-caliber guns to bring them in for ballistic fingerprinting.

"They're looking for suspects," said Mike Heffernan, owner of Self Defense Technologies in Kensington. "They're looking at people who have a background in firearms, possess .223 weapons, and have the capability of using them."

Glockenstien · October 17, 2002, 08:53 PM

I am by no means a conspiracy theorist or a wearer of tin foil hats (never have been, hell I don't even believe in aliens

). That being said, I think this whole bad situation is evolving into a great test case for the government. The government will see how easy it is to confiscate the weapons of private citizens by way of some B.S. or "do it for the children" reason, and it will become evident to all of the anti-RKBA politicians and government agencies that total confiscation is in fact possible. People who allow BATF/FBI/Whatever ABC agency persons into their home and give them their firearms for whatever reason ,"voluntary" or through intimidation, are providing these sots the venue to disarm us. Please, for the sake of us all, be aware of your rights (for whatever they are worth) and have the courage to stand up for them. Just because the government of this country is swirling around the bottom of the toilet, it doesn't mean we have to as well.

Dex Sinister · October 17, 2002, 08:55 PM

Whole story relevant

Dex }:>=-

====================

Copyright 2002 News World Communications, Inc.
The Washington Times

October 17, 2002, Thursday, Final Edition

SECTION: NATION; Pg. A12

LENGTH: 764 words

HEADLINE: Authorities check gun shops, ranges, owners for any clues

BYLINE: By S.A. Miller, THE WASHINGTON TIMES

BODY:
Investigators hunting the Washington area sniper have cast the net far and wide over the region's gun community - confiscating sign-in logs from shooting ranges, tracking sales of .223-caliber weapons and knocking on gun owners' doors.

Montgomery County police and agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms [ATF] came knocking on the door of Ken Scott's home in Silver Spring twice last week, asking for his thoughts about the shooting spree and about where he was during the times of the shootings.

Mr. Scott, confident the account of his whereabouts eliminated him as a suspect, said that either his neighbors gave his name on the tip line or investigators singled him out because he owns a gun shop.

On Tuesday, ATF agents arrived at Mr. Scott's Article II Unlimited store in Silver Spring accompanied by a man who had sold Mr. Scott a .223-caliber rifle - the same round that has killed nine and wounded two persons in the sniper attacks. The agent wanted to see the gun, but it had already been resold, Mr. Scott said. "Based on what they said to me, it seemed they were checking everyone who owned any gun that shoots that [.223-caliber] ammunition," Mr. Scott said.

Some gun owners reported that ATF agents had taken people's rifles to perform test-firing experiments and later returned the weapons. The Washington Times could not confirm the reports.

Authorities declined to comment on the probe of gun dealers and gun owners. An FBI spokesman for the multiagency task force searching for the sniper said that they were using every possible strategy to catch the killer, and that countless interviews were being conducted.

U.S. marshals from the task force questioned the owner of Schelin Guns in College Park last week about a man who took a firearms-safety class at the shop in late September, less than a week before the shooting spree began Oct. 2 in Montgomery County.

The federal agents checked the class roster and asked about sales of .223-caliber rifles, said store owner John Schelin, who had not recently sold that type of weapon.

The agents told Mr. Schelin that they were following a tip about a specific man who took the class, which is mandatory when purchasing handguns or rifles such as AK-47s or AR-15s, which are considered assault weapons.

A Northern Virginia man recently visited by ATF agents was asked whether he owned a .223-caliber weapon or had access to a white van, which has been seen at the scene of some of the shootings. The man, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said he answered no to both questions, and the agents left.

He also said the agents told him that neighbors submitted his name to the tip line because he owns guns.

"You have all these news agencies saying to call the tip line if you know anybody who owns guns, if you know anybody with a white truck or anybody acting suspicious. You know, people act on that," he said. "It's too broad of a spectrum, and the ATF have to be thorough."

ATF agents last week confiscated the sign-in log from the firing range at Clark Brothers Guns in Warrenton, Va. The log included the signatures, some illegible, of customers who had used the range during the past six months, said owner Steve Clark.[/b]

"I don't know what they hope to glean from it," he said. "I guess they are trying anything."

Lamar Miller, a handwriting expert in Summerland Key, Fla., formerly with the Alabama State Forensic Lab, said the signatures could provide information beyond who used the range.

But it would be difficult to link a signature to the writing on the tarot card found at the scene of the Oct. 7 shooting outside a Bowie school that critically wounded a 13-year-old boy, he said.

"That's not to say it can't be done," Mr. Miller said. "You could find some similarities that might bear following up. They are trying to find some similarities such as the size of the letters and the shape of the letters. If there are [similarities] they would probably try to obtain more writing samples."

Task force investigators also paid a call on the Bethesda-Chevy Chase chapter of the Izaak Walton League of America, a conservationist and outdoorsman organization that operates a private firing range in Poolesville on the western edge of Montgomery County.

ATF agents have visited numerous gun shops in the Washington area to review sales records and federal 4473 forms that list buyer information for every firearms sale. In some instances, the investigators made copies of documents, said gun shop owners and employees.

GRAPHIC: A target shows some precise shooting by sportsmen at the Clarks Brothers shooting range near Warrenton, Va. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms confiscated the sign-in logs of the past six months at the range. [Photo by Jessica Tefft/The Washington Times]

LOAD-DATE: October 17, 2002

Legionnaire · October 17, 2002, 08:55 PM

cyber, if you think the 2nd Amendment was written to protect the citizenry from Britain, you're a victim of revisionist historians. Get and read a copy of That Every Man Be Armed. The 2nd Amendment was to protect the citizenry from the tyranny of a federal government, to prevent the feds from having a monopoly on power ... as it had been under British rule.

RKCheung · October 17, 2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

I'm not convinced they wanted every man, woman and child to carry a high capacity 9mm everywhere they go.

Me neither. They would have at least advocated a .45 or a shotgun or a rifle...

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 09:04 PM

...or maybe a plasma rifle in the 40W range (or whatever the quote is from Terminator)

Poodleshooter · October 17, 2002, 09:08 PM

Quote:

What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit. The reason is that the people that would "carry" here are not the people you would want to have firearms. That said, there are times when I hit an ATM late at night and would like to have my Glock under my coat.

Cybersnider: I too am of Maryland suburban extraction (born and raised). I have to counter your fear about "undesirables" getting access to firearms carry permits. This is not a problem in VA. Why? Simple-the undesirables and would be criminals don't bother. They are too lazy or stupid to go through even our simple application process. Heck, 95 out of 100 people in our state don't even know that they can get a permit. Those same "undesirables" may bother to get a decent gun, but it is doubtful that they will practice, or if they do, it will be the sort of gangster "practice" that I used to see at Maryland Small Arms range-that inspired by watching "Boyz in the Hood".
Another thing to consider CS-the amendments are NOT rights given to the people, they are LIMITATIONS for the government-areas where they may not tread.
TFL readers: Cybersnider is NOT unique. This is a view frequently found in hunters, and gun enthusiast LEO's in urban areas. Not everyone in the NRA member ranks is converted, so keep preaching to the choir!

cybersnyder · October 17, 2002, 09:09 PM

Hey Legionnaire, I'll try to find a copy of the book. You know, if they wouldn't have taken an early lunch break and maybe made the 2nd Amendment 2 sentences long, it would have saved a lot of discussion. Well, that's what makes America great.

Legionnaire · October 17, 2002, 09:16 PM

cyber, agree that it could have been plainer ... but it was pretty plain when it was written. Ask yourself what was meant by "militia" when the BOR was adopted. Further, the operative clause of the amendment is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Seems to me that that's pretty plain, even if there is confusion (arguably) around the meaning of "well regulated militia."

On another vein, here's the link to the Washington Times article, for those who can't access LexisNexis:

http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20021017-90194126.htm

October 17, 2002, 07:04 PM	#33
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	TallPine, by the time it gets to us, with only about 800,000 residents in this entire state, it'll be waaaay to late to do much. ATF should be being told, "Don't try this in the United States of America." __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

October 17, 2002, 08:28 PM	#39
frequencydrive Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 2	no way I don't give a dam if the BATF calls or not. I will hang up on them and move all my guns out of the house. Well except for my trusty .45, which stays permanently attached to my waist. There is so *ucking way I would turn in any god dam gun to F-troop. I can't believe that they have collected 5000 guns from people. Unless they show me a warrant or bust down my door that is the only way I'm giving my guns up so they can "test" them. I believe there is little truth to this story. I do believe, maybe, the ATF, called a few people but 5000? No way. Well, eh, I HOPE it's not true. Like they say, give'em the ammo first. edited for spelling

October 17, 2002, 08:30 PM	#40
stevie_d_64 Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 19	Being a "Firing Line" forum virgin... What interested me in this forum was this topic...So I decided to register and join the crowd... I must say I am a bit amazed that this story has yet to come up on the radar in any of the numerous updates to this "sniper story" on any network...But I am not surprised...Blatant abuses to our rights have always been hangin out there waiting for an opportunity to be implemented... If the BATF is throwing the blanket far and wide on this one, the excellent advice from other in this thread should be pursued...I cannot add anything of value than what has already been suggested... Refusal of a request over the phone is not a crime in any State, I'd get that lawyer and advise him of what is going on...They will tell you what you need to do... As far as those knocks on the door...Unless there is a warrant in hand and shown to you, I'd refuse the inquiry and show them nothing, regardless of how respectful all parties involved are concerned... Force them to do the legwork...The burden is on them, not you... At this point I feel they are grabbing at straws...They have nothing on this case, and are just flexing to look like they are doing something... Now I am not ragging on Law Enforcement, there are a few involved who are doing the best they can, but this is going to be a long haul investigation unless somebody gets lucky... This confiscation story needs the light of day thrown on it, or it will not garner a lot of sympathy from anyone on the fringe of the issue at hand... I'm always encouraged by the enthusiasm in crowds like this, it lets me know I can alway access and get information I and others need to keep this all in perspective...

October 17, 2002, 08:50 PM	#42
Dex Sinister Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2002 Location: The People's Republic of California Posts: 172	From LexisNexis: Two 10/17 news stories containing allegations of confiscation Relevant sections in bold See end of article Dex }:>=- ========================== The Associated Press State & Local Wire The materials in the AP file were compiled by The Associated Press. These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press. October 17, 2002, Thursday, BC cycle 4:53 PM Eastern Time SECTION: State and Regional LENGTH: 636 words HEADLINE: Sniper investigators: Witness gave fake story about shooter, van, weapon BYLINE: By STEPHEN MANNING, Associated Press Writer DATELINE: ROCKVILLE, Md. BODY: A witness who described the Washington sniper, his assault rifle and his cream-colored van gave police a phony story, investigators said Thursday in a setback that casts doubt on much of what the public thought it knew about the roving killer. Prosecutors said the witness could face charges. His name was not immediately released. Fairfax County police Lt. Amy Lubas said the inaccurate account was exposed by checking it against that of other witnesses to Monday night's killing of an FBI cyberterrorism analyst in a crowded Virginia parking lot outside a Home Depot. It was the only shooting so far that people actually saw. Asked if the witness may have intentionally misled investigators, Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose, who is heading the investigation, said simply, "Yes." Investigators had showed a certain optimism after the latest attack seemed to yield the best details yet about the killer. But that gave way to anger Thursday. Moose said there was no credence to the witness' description of the cream-colored van with a burned-out rear taillight. And while Moose did not give the witness' exact description of the shooter, he chastised reporters for running reports that variously described the gunman as dark-skinned, olive-skinned, Middle Eastern or Hispanic. "When we have people from the media interviewing witnesses and publishing reports, we get confusion," Moose said. "We get this noise ... out there that gives people tunnel vision and makes them focus in on things that are not appropriate. ... We would like to be able to do our job." Moose said the witness' emphatic description of the shooter's AK-74 assault rifle is also bogus. But investigators cautioned that they still believe the sniper is using one of a family of more than 30 similar assault-type weapons capable of firing a .223-caliber bullet. "The message we're trying to say is please keep an open mind," Moose said. "People saw a description of a weapon over the last day and a half and we're convinced they eliminated people they know because they say, 'Their gun is not the weapon I saw in the paper."' Moose said the disclosure of the fake story, coming a day after investigators said they were unable to draw a composite sketch, was hardly a setback. He said investigators were still chasing leads and he stood by previous composite drawings of vehicles witnesses reported seeing leaving the attacks: a white box truck and a Chevrolet Astro van or Ford Econoline van. Since Oct. 2, there have been 11 shootings in Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C., that have left nine people dead and two wounded. One of the wounded, a 13-year-old boy shot outside his school in Bowie, Md., was upgraded Thursday from critical to serious condition. The other wounded person, a woman in Virginia, was released from a hospital last week. The victims were men and women of varying ages and ethnic backgrounds, each hit with a single bullet while going about everyday activities. A tarot death card left at one scene was inscribed: "Dear Policeman, I am God." Law enforcement sources said the investigation by federal, state and local authorities has led to information about a number of people with high-powered guns, both legally and illegally owned. A firearms safety instructor said the FBI has been asking registered owners of .223-caliber guns to bring them in for ballistic fingerprinting. "They're looking for suspects," said Mike Heffernan, owner of Self Defense Technologies in Kensington. "They're looking at people who have a background in firearms, possess .223 weapons, and have the capability of using them."

October 17, 2002, 08:53 PM	#43
Glockenstien Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 17	This is how it all starts..... I am by no means a conspiracy theorist or a wearer of tin foil hats (never have been, hell I don't even believe in aliens ). That being said, I think this whole bad situation is evolving into a great test case for the government. The government will see how easy it is to confiscate the weapons of private citizens by way of some B.S. or "do it for the children" reason, and it will become evident to all of the anti-RKBA politicians and government agencies that total confiscation is in fact possible. People who allow BATF/FBI/Whatever ABC agency persons into their home and give them their firearms for whatever reason ,"voluntary" or through intimidation, are providing these sots the venue to disarm us. Please, for the sake of us all, be aware of your rights (for whatever they are worth) and have the courage to stand up for them. Just because the government of this country is swirling around the bottom of the toilet, it doesn't mean we have to as well.

October 17, 2002, 05:29 PM	#26
SquirrelNuts Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2002 Location: Marietta, GA-home of the Big Chicken Posts: 247	When social security numbers were originally assigned, they were NEVER to be used as a form of identification. I use my SSN every day at work four times, I use it every day at school, and I use it at least once a week for other purposes. This certainly violates what the number was created for. Do we see a pattern here with govt. run entities? The ATF form is being used for purposes other than it was created for... -SquirrelNuts

October 17, 2002, 05:48 PM	#27
Krautgunner Member Join Date: October 3, 2002 Location: Northern Bavaria, Germany Posts: 86	These are very disturbing incidents! Is the state of Maryland degenerating into a police state??? Even in my gun-hostile country, such a behavior by police agents or government officials is inconceivable.

October 17, 2002, 05:52 PM	#28
moa Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2000 Posts: 667	If the Feds and other political entities can get away with this stuff for the high profile sniper case, then it is a template for all future gun related crimes. Comb the databases and 4473 forms for firearms in particular caliber, and confiscate them for purposes of "test firing". Bring in a small army of ATF, FBI, etc, a scour the courtryside. I think if a lot more people knew about this now, it might have a favorable affect on the up coming mid-term elections. NRA, GOA, etc., should be acting right now. People also should be contacting their elected representatives immediately. We may need more concrete information first as events unfold, so say tuned.

October 17, 2002, 06:06 PM	#29
delectric Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 2	Just what part of NO! Don't the people of the once great State of MD understand, has the education level within MD dropped to an all time low? Has the collective IQ of these people slipped that low as to surrender their private property? If you as a citizen of MD think that you are a little more secure by surrendering your firearms, you deserve what you get, a POLICE STATE. Now if you have any INTESTINAL FORTITUDE at all, seek out a State Court Judge and a good Constitutional lawyer and at once seek a restraining order. It your liberty, and you are setting a presidense..... your SILENCE IS YOUR AFFIRMATION!

October 17, 2002, 06:19 PM	#30
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	I'm very doubtful of this. The media would be all over this story. They posted that a man in PA was investigated because he bought a .223 rifle with a bad check a month ago. http://www.publicopiniononline.com/n...ws/261050.html I could believe that they siezed 50 rifles, but not 5000. This is a murder investigation and the only evidence so far is the bullet pulled out of the victims. They should be able to figure out the rifling from the recovered rounds and be able to narrow down the possible rifles. They would be crazy to not use firearm purchase databases to not obtain a list of persons that purchased those types of rifles. If someone purchased an accurized AR-15 2 days before the shooting starts, wouldn't you investigate that person? Seriously, I highly doubt this story - at least the numbers mentioned. Actually, I hope that the police is doing their job and checking weapons of people that are "highly suspect". Don't forget that a lot of this "their gonna take your gun" crap is spread around before elections. It's good for the conservative candidate because he/she doesn't need to do anything other than spread inuendo of gun control and they'll pick up votes. Who cares if they don't have a clue and no stance on any real issues. I'm an NRA member, but sometimes I just wish they were a little more moderate. I guess I'm a member but not a blind supporter. Just an opinion -- and I really do like guns.

October 17, 2002, 06:28 PM	#31
Thumper Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 1,507	Cyber, welcome to TFL. You may in fact be an NRA member, but your statements concerning firearms and the prosecution of investigations make it obvious that you get a lot of your info from the media. You might do a little more research before you post. No offense, but is English your mother tongue or are you one of our new foreign guests?

October 17, 2002, 06:45 PM	#32
TallPine Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2002 Location: Montana Posts: 528	I am an NRA member, but sometimes (always) I wish they were a **** of a lot less moderate (wishy-washy sell outs). How about enforcing the Second Amendment (still the highest law in the land the last time I checked) instead of existing unconstitutional gun laws? Warning to ATF et al: don't try this in Montana.

October 17, 2002, 07:34 PM	#34
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 566	Yahoo has a breif mention of it. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=135618

October 17, 2002, 07:46 PM	#35
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	Sorry Thumper, I'll try to edit my posts in the future. I guess I should have written with more of a drawl. (Pun intended) A little perspective -- I'm from Maryland but grew up in the "country" in Pennsylvania. I remember in high school (mid 80'2) there would always be a couple shotguns or rifles in the gun racks of pickups during hunting season. Nobody thought anything of it. Times sure have changed. Now you're expelled for the infamous plastic knife in your lunch. Now I live in the 'burbs of Maryland. I'm glad it's not easy to get handguns here. There's an entirely different way of thinking here. In PA, you could let your car doors unlocked and fully expect that nothing would happen. Not so here. There's a small percentage of the population (and I'm not on a white pride, racist soap box - there are cacasians in that group) that ruin the entire environment. You can trust 95% of the people, but the 5% probably wouldn't think twice about "capping" you if they knew they would get away with it and your wallet. You can argue that if law abiding citizens could carry concealed weapons then the robbers would think twice. That might work in some areas, but I doubt it would be effective here in Maryland. Most of the people would never carry firearms. Back in PA, I have an inlaw that carrys a Walther PPK when he goes for a walk in a very quiet development, in a very quiet town that has a violent crime once every 10 years. I don't hink he will have much opportunity to pull the gun in self defense. (Plus we know he really should be carrying a .45.) TallPine and Jbar4Ranch: You might find this humorous -- at work we joke about starting "New Montana". The plan is to take over Montana, kick out all the undesirables and then start over with a society based on personal responsibility. Montana seems like a good location because of the relatively few undesireables and it's room for expansion. But the drawback is that it sounds too much like a plan Hitler might have come up with. Sorry for the tangents, but if they are looking for a specific model or two of firearms that could have been used in the shootings I think it's more responsible of a firearm owner to support the investigation than to waste time in the investigation by pulling legal maneuvers. The firearms should be returned within a week. Of course, my opinion changes if they are confiscating all .223 firearms, but I really don't think that's the case.

October 17, 2002, 08:19 PM	#36
RKCheung Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 170	Cyber- From your last post it seems that you don't support the second amendment. You approve of additional laws restricting RKBA and disregard the rights of law abiding citizens. Are you sure you're an NRA member?

October 17, 2002, 08:21 PM	#37
frequencydrive Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 2	What is "Molon Labe"? I must really be out of the loop here.

October 17, 2002, 08:25 PM	#38
dischord Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 945	cybersnyder, I'm thinking of moving to Maryland. Do you prefer the Boegmann's grocery food chain or the SavaLots?

October 17, 2002, 08:48 PM	#41
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	RKCheung, Don't get me wrong, I support the 2nd ammendment and I am an NRA member. I don't think you'll see me on the cover of American Rifleman anytime soon though. I really like their education programs which is why I'm a member. I don't like the fact that they are a 6 million strong political powerhouse that uses their weight to distort real issues by screaming 2nd ammendment right, even if it's not a real issue in a particular race. Make no doubt about it, they are a little more than just a magazine producing, shooting information resource. I don't like the fact that all that political muscle is in the hands of a few directors. What I am saying is that in my part of the country, in suburban Maryland, I'm happy that there isn't a concealed weapons permit. The reason is that the people that would "carry" here are not the people you would want to have firearms. That said, there are times when I hit an ATM late at night and would like to have my Glock under my coat. I remember my first gun show. Probably more firepower than some small countries. I was wondering if that was what our fore fathers had in mind. They were concerned with being able to bear arms so that a foreign power (Britian) could not occupy the new country and they really didn't have an Armed Forces at the time. It was the citizen soldier that was the basis of our ability to fight against foreign oppression. That's why we needed firearms in the hands of the citizens. I'm not convinced they wanted every man, woman and child to carry a high capacity 9mm everywhere they go. So, yeah I support the right to own firearms. I'm not a big fan of concealed carry mostly because of where I live. In some areas, concealed carry works. I definitely support the 2nd ammendment, I just think that sometimes it is twisted into something other than what was intended by the writers of the Constitution. Just an opinion and I certainly respect yours.

October 17, 2002, 08:55 PM	#44
Dex Sinister Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2002 Location: The People's Republic of California Posts: 172	From LexisNexis: Two 10/17 news stories containing allegations of confiscation Whole story relevant Dex }:>=- ==================== Copyright 2002 News World Communications, Inc. The Washington Times October 17, 2002, Thursday, Final Edition SECTION: NATION; Pg. A12 LENGTH: 764 words HEADLINE: Authorities check gun shops, ranges, owners for any clues BYLINE: By S.A. Miller, THE WASHINGTON TIMES BODY: Investigators hunting the Washington area sniper have cast the net far and wide over the region's gun community - confiscating sign-in logs from shooting ranges, tracking sales of .223-caliber weapons and knocking on gun owners' doors. Montgomery County police and agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms [ATF] came knocking on the door of Ken Scott's home in Silver Spring twice last week, asking for his thoughts about the shooting spree and about where he was during the times of the shootings. Mr. Scott, confident the account of his whereabouts eliminated him as a suspect, said that either his neighbors gave his name on the tip line or investigators singled him out because he owns a gun shop. On Tuesday, ATF agents arrived at Mr. Scott's Article II Unlimited store in Silver Spring accompanied by a man who had sold Mr. Scott a .223-caliber rifle - the same round that has killed nine and wounded two persons in the sniper attacks. The agent wanted to see the gun, but it had already been resold, Mr. Scott said. "Based on what they said to me, it seemed they were checking everyone who owned any gun that shoots that [.223-caliber] ammunition," Mr. Scott said. Some gun owners reported that ATF agents had taken people's rifles to perform test-firing experiments and later returned the weapons. The Washington Times could not confirm the reports. Authorities declined to comment on the probe of gun dealers and gun owners. An FBI spokesman for the multiagency task force searching for the sniper said that they were using every possible strategy to catch the killer, and that countless interviews were being conducted. U.S. marshals from the task force questioned the owner of Schelin Guns in College Park last week about a man who took a firearms-safety class at the shop in late September, less than a week before the shooting spree began Oct. 2 in Montgomery County. The federal agents checked the class roster and asked about sales of .223-caliber rifles, said store owner John Schelin, who had not recently sold that type of weapon. The agents told Mr. Schelin that they were following a tip about a specific man who took the class, which is mandatory when purchasing handguns or rifles such as AK-47s or AR-15s, which are considered assault weapons. A Northern Virginia man recently visited by ATF agents was asked whether he owned a .223-caliber weapon or had access to a white van, which has been seen at the scene of some of the shootings. The man, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said he answered no to both questions, and the agents left. He also said the agents told him that neighbors submitted his name to the tip line because he owns guns. "You have all these news agencies saying to call the tip line if you know anybody who owns guns, if you know anybody with a white truck or anybody acting suspicious. You know, people act on that," he said. "It's too broad of a spectrum, and the ATF have to be thorough." ATF agents last week confiscated the sign-in log from the firing range at Clark Brothers Guns in Warrenton, Va. The log included the signatures, some illegible, of customers who had used the range during the past six months, said owner Steve Clark.[/b] "I don't know what they hope to glean from it," he said. "I guess they are trying anything." Lamar Miller, a handwriting expert in Summerland Key, Fla., formerly with the Alabama State Forensic Lab, said the signatures could provide information beyond who used the range. But it would be difficult to link a signature to the writing on the tarot card found at the scene of the Oct. 7 shooting outside a Bowie school that critically wounded a 13-year-old boy, he said. "That's not to say it can't be done," Mr. Miller said. "You could find some similarities that might bear following up. They are trying to find some similarities such as the size of the letters and the shape of the letters. If there are [similarities] they would probably try to obtain more writing samples." Task force investigators also paid a call on the Bethesda-Chevy Chase chapter of the Izaak Walton League of America, a conservationist and outdoorsman organization that operates a private firing range in Poolesville on the western edge of Montgomery County. ATF agents have visited numerous gun shops in the Washington area to review sales records and federal 4473 forms that list buyer information for every firearms sale. In some instances, the investigators made copies of documents, said gun shop owners and employees. GRAPHIC: A target shows some precise shooting by sportsmen at the Clarks Brothers shooting range near Warrenton, Va. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms confiscated the sign-in logs of the past six months at the range. [Photo by Jessica Tefft/The Washington Times] LOAD-DATE: October 17, 2002

October 17, 2002, 08:55 PM	#45
Legionnaire Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Central TX Posts: 1,503	cyber, if you think the 2nd Amendment was written to protect the citizenry from Britain, you're a victim of revisionist historians. Get and read a copy of That Every Man Be Armed. The 2nd Amendment was to protect the citizenry from the tyranny of a federal government, to prevent the feds from having a monopoly on power ... as it had been under British rule. __________________ Cogito, ergo armatus sum.

October 17, 2002, 09:04 PM	#47
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	...or maybe a plasma rifle in the 40W range (or whatever the quote is from Terminator)

October 17, 2002, 09:09 PM	#49
cybersnyder Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Posts: 79	Hey Legionnaire, I'll try to find a copy of the book. You know, if they wouldn't have taken an early lunch break and maybe made the 2nd Amendment 2 sentences long, it would have saved a lot of discussion. Well, that's what makes America great.

October 17, 2002, 09:16 PM	#50
Legionnaire Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Central TX Posts: 1,503	cyber, agree that it could have been plainer ... but it was pretty plain when it was written. Ask yourself what was meant by "militia" when the BOR was adopted. Further, the operative clause of the amendment is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Seems to me that that's pretty plain, even if there is confusion (arguably) around the meaning of "well regulated militia." On another vein, here's the link to the Washington Times article, for those who can't access LexisNexis: http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20021017-90194126.htm __________________ Cogito, ergo armatus sum.