Call me silly

[priv8ter]

So, I am looking for the absolute smallest gun I can carry, and I'm not too worried about the weight. I am fully aware of NAA' line of products, and must say they are the front runners on my list. Nothin' against you Seecamp fans, but I'm on a budget, and more importantly, 7 days is long enough to wait for a gun, let alone 2 years.

For some silly reason or another, I found myself on American Derringer's website today, and that got me thinking. Man, did it hurt. Say for some crazy reason, you had to choose between 5 rounds of .22, and 2 of .45, which choice would you make.

Like I said, right now I'm planning on the Guardian 32, so I'll have 7 .32(good compromise I think). The website says MSPR is $408. Anyone have an actual on the street price? Thanks for humoring me.

[vesuvius]

Okay, here goes: SILLY

'nuff said

[George Hill]

Your your going to carry a Guardian... Get the .380 version.
It is not really any larger, but in a MUCH more potent caliber.

[PigPen]

.......snip........."Say for some crazy reason, you had to choose between 5 rounds of .22, and 2 of .45, which choice would you make."

Are you serious??

Conceding at the outset that under some circumstances either could be favored over the other (5 assailants attacking at the same time for example), I would definitely choose 2 .45 ACPs. It is more likely to be the ticket.

PigPen

[mlk18]

I think the derrigner is a viable option if you're planning on holding it to the intended target's torso and firing point blank, or firing within very close ranges. I actually know LEO's who carry derringers as back up guns. But I wouldn't feel well armed with one, and would second the NAA Guardian in .380 or the AMT .380's.


mlk18

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, so you really don't want the absolute smallest gun at all, do you Silly? You want the smallest gun you can afford. Size and cost may not be mutually compatible.

Where in this equation do you consider issues of reliability and stopping power? How much effective range do you want to have? Many of the smaller guns can be fired fairly well out to 3-5 yards, which may be more than you need in a defensive situation, but at the same time, making sure to deliver accurate shots with such small guns can be more difficult than with a larger gun.

If you are truly worried about getting the smallest gun you can, and you have considered something like a .22, then I would suggest you get a Baby Browning or Colt Vest Pocket .25 acp. It is going to be a lot smaller and lighter than a Derringer and smaller than the NAA Guardians and Seecamps.

Changing gears slightly. Is this gun for defensive use? If so, why is it important that it be so small? Why is it so important to compromise your firepower and effecitive ability to protect yourself such that you would get such a small gun. Sure, any gun is better than no gun, but thinking that a tiny will protect you, and trying to bring that tiny gun into a conflict may actually come at the expense of not getting away. In many cases, you might be much better off by bolting from the situation than trying to draw a tiny gun from concealment and then firing anemic shots at the bad person, shots that likely will not be terribly accurate that are of a caliber not known for good stopping power.

As for the query about 5 from a .22 or 2 from a .45 (derringer), from what i have read, derringer rounds in .45 may not get up to very good speed, hence have very poor penetation. You will do more damage with a contact shot from the gasses than you would from the projectile - as I understand it.

[Mal H]

What George said. Guardian .380's are going for around $350 - $380 here.

[priv8ter]

Double Naught, the reason I want as small a gun as reasonably possible is for concealability. I already have a H&K USP 40 that I carry small of the back. Even here in Western Washington, the weather doesn't always allow that. So, for my second gun(usually a backup, but it will occiasionally be my only gun) I want something that will comfortably fit in a pocket, ALL THE TIME. I tried small revolvers(2 inch 38's) and I don't like how they fit in a pocket, so I am looking for a small auto.

Mlk18, the gun store where I shop had an AMT 380 in stock, but it moved quickly and I never got a chance to handle it. Is there a website out there with data on them? They look very much like what I am looking for.

I really don't see myself as a derringer type guy, just looking to see if anyone still acknowledged a use for them.

Thanks to everyone, even vesuvius, who took the easy way out.

[mlk18]

There used to be, but I am having trouble finding it now. I am pretty sure that AMT stands for Arcadia Machine & Tool co. Some people will complain about the AMT Backups, but I have found them to be reasonably accurate and reliable, especially for close range defensive shooting (they have no sights). The two models that seem to do well are the Backup .380 and the Backup .45. The .380 is very small and super concealable. Look at the auction sites for more pics and info:

www.auctionarms.com

www.gunbroker.com

www.gunsamerica.com


mlk18

[Mal H]

I believe I recall hearing that AMT is now out of bizness. Any guns you find now will be either used or new from dealer's existing stock.

[USGuns]

How about the new Kahr PM9? 9mm and not that much bigger that the NAA pistols.
http://www.kahr.com/new_pm9093.html

[StuporDave]

From what I hear AMT is no longer in business. That said, the Backup line are nice little pistols, IMHO. I.ve got the DAO .45 Backup. It's reliable and accurate enough for it's intended purpose (Holy crap this guy's about to kill me and my main weapon is gone/disabled/empty!!)

It's also 5+1 compared to your derringer's 2 shot capacity.

Dave

[Zander]

Please investigate the Kel-Tec P-32.

Don't let the naysayers discourage you...they are very sophisticated and reliable pistols.

And they are the most carryable pistol I've ever found...less than 7 ounces...and so slim you won't believe it.

Absolutely disappear in a pocket.

To echo other comments...please don't rely on a derringer as your only protection.

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

American Derringer makes more than derringers.



The LM-5, or Semmerling. This is not the .45 cal. manually operated repeater that runs some $1500 plus, this is their new product. It's a semi-auto, that's advertised MSRP is $358. Usually that means less at the shop.

The kicker? It's a .32 MAGNUM. Only four shot capacity, but NOT .32 ACP. That allows more bullet weight, which is MY primary objection to .32 ACP's. I'm unimpressed with 60-71 grains of bullet. I like the concept of 100-110 grains MUCH better. Velocities will be comparable between the two calibers in short barrels, with the weight advantage to the mag.

Note: The .32's are not in production yet, at least, they weren't on the price list on ADC's sight. All they have listed now is the .25 ACP. But if they ever get them in production, I want one. Of course, my state probably won't allow them to be sold, but perhaps ADC will be willing to jump through the hoops and pay the Kaliforny Extortion fee. That'd be neat. .32 mag in a non-revolver vest-pocket mini. Cheap, too. ADC has always priced their stuff well, in the context of how solidly they make their products.

I'll even endorse 'em. I've got a .45 ACP M-1 standard derringer. That thing is BUILT. Shoots good too. At seven yards, it'll put the bullets about a foot apart, vertically. At ten feet, they're usually about 4-6 inches apart, about 4 inches above point-of-aim. Recoil is not pleasant, but it won't break your hand. Bought it for $225, ANIB. A very intimidating-looking gun from the front. Something about a huge figure-eight of dark bores surrounded by white metal. Shows up good in the dark, too. In the context of a defensive gun, that mostly gets displayed to, but not shot at, a would-be mugger, the intimidation factor is a big plus. (*C-clic-click*, "D'you still want that wallet?")

Trigger pull could be better, though. Heavy, with a funny direction of travel to it. Consequense of the design that goes back to the original Remington double derringer, from 1866. Not a lot of choices on pivot-point in such a dinky gun. But hey, it's not a match gun, and it doesn't interfere with function. Hanging on to the thing is a good idea in heavy calibers. They only weigh one pound, after all.

Their safety system works good, too. Allows a gun with no trigger guard to ride around in your pocket, although any pocket gun should live in a pocket holster.

Short barrels affecting ballistics? Not hardly. If that mattered, why do all those 3-inch barreled 1911's sell so well? .45 ACP loses all of about 75 FPS off of most loads out of snubbies. The difference between "big 'n slow" vs. "big 'n a-little-bit-slower" is basically inconsequential.

I would suggest not running plus-p's, though. The gun doesn't care, but you will. Plus-p's, particularly in the heavier bullets, hurt more on the back side of the gun.

Derringers can make a pretty good "always gun". They'll go places a snubby revolver won't. Side by side with my S&W M-36, the derringer is a BUNCH smaller, in all dimensions, except bore size.

Mmmmm, gigantamous bores. Droool...

"Big bullets let in a lot of air, and let out a lot of blood."--Elmer Kieth.

Ok, after all that product hyping for ADC derringers, I must admit that I can shoot the snubby revolver a lot better than the derringer. But at a distance of a few feet, I can shoot them exactly the same, in terms of shot-placement and rapidity of delivery. The same can be said for my small autos like my Makarov and CZ-70. 5 .38's, or 2 .45's? Tough one. Scary appearance? .45's, hands down. 99 times out of 100, scary appearance is all you need.


[opinion] But the revolver is more FUN to shoot, encouraging more practice, it'll shoot further with much more accuracy, and it'll go everyplace the derringer will, about 95% of the time. Better take a close look at snubby .38's before you get that Guardian. They're not that much different in size/weight. [/opinion] (Like the rest of this post isn't. )

Have you looked at a Kel-tec .32? They're about half the price, and they weigh even less. Just a thought.

Edit: Missed the bit about trying snubby revolvers already. Oops. Endorsement withdrawn.

Note: AMT Backups, of all stripes, have 1) an indifferent track record as far as quality goes. AMT's come in two classes: just fine, and POS. And 2) ALL of them have VERY heavy triggers. They're all blowbacks, and the 2-ton hammer springs are part of their operating system and can only be improved so much. Typical trigger pulls for most back-ups is in the twenty-pound range.

[priv8ter]

Don't like them. Took my wife to a range in Tacoma a while ago that rents guns, and I tried two Kahrs, a K9 and a P9 Covert. I was unimpressed with the feel of either one of them. That being said...

I have never held a Guardian in my hand either. Or the AMT for that matter. Maybe I'm one of those ignorance is bliss folks. I have fondled the small Beretta's, and I liked the feel of them better than the Kahr's. They are on my list also(although, I refuse to get a .25...ick)

I know, the kind of gun I am talking about is for defence, and not for plinking, so, feel in the hand is less important than it is with my H&K or my Mk II, but, I just plain didn't like the Kahr. Okay, I liked it a little, but, did I mention I'm a sailor? From what I've seen, the Kahr's are like 100-175 more than the other's I'm looking at. That's a lot of practice ammo. Of course, if someone wanted to sell me an MK-40 for the price of an AMT Backup, I could turn a blind eye to what I disliked.

The search goes on. But then again, I think the looking, comparing and fondling is almost as much fun as actually shooting the guns.

[priv8ter]

Still remember the first time I saw one in a pawn shop. I couldn't believe it was real. Now, after cruising the posts here, I admit my surprise at reading about the number of folks that trust their lives to the Kel-tecs. Since some of them seem fairly rational, I have forced myself to reevaluate them as an option. I especially like the SUB-2000, and if it ever is released in .40 S&W, I will probably get one. My wife and I have talked about the Kel-tec's, and if I decide on one of those, she wants me to get a black-on-black, since she feels the blue-on-black ones look like toys.

If American Derringer does come out with the LM-5 in 32 Mag, It will go on my list also. For now though, I am not going to buy a .25. I know, a bullet is a bullet, but I will be stubborn and trust a .22 before a .25.

I would like to thank everyone for their continued input. As you can tell, I am very open on this topic. My birthday is a month away, and I need to give my wife my top 4 choices so she can go to the gun shop, and surprise me with one of them for my birthday. I won't tell you what I had to get her to seal that deal.

[blades67]

Call me silly

You're silly. If you want a .32 ACP there's also the Kel-Tec.

[Greybeard]

Since you mentioned gun primarily as "backup", ' will ad my .02 on NAA .22 mag 5-holer. Optional .22LR cylinder makes for lots of fun and very cheap practice. The guns are in $200 range here. Mine (5+ years ago) came with a nice little leather holster which has seen countless hours IWB, pocket and top of cowboy boot. Need to read and heed "safety notch" feature if you get one of these (or any very small gun) and carry a lot, because at some point you will likely drop it ...