Abductee shoots kidnapper. - Page 2

Nanaimo Barr · May 31, 2001, 12:17 AM

question, how did she know he was dead? was she sure that the round to the head killed him? for all she knew (and for all we know) he tripped, fell down, she may have seen him move and considered him a threat, so she popped 2 more COM.

all we have is the word of an "eye witness" (and we know how reliable they are) who probably wouldn't know a handgun from a honest politican. let alone know if the sumbag was dead or not.

Byron Quick · May 31, 2001, 06:37 AM

As the article reads, her actions are contrary to the self defense laws of Georgia. But based on watching many other similar situations here in Georgia, I would bet the farm that she will never be indicted. I will be surprised if it is even brought up before a grand jury.

An acquaintance of mine runs a small service station. He's a little guy. One day three men comes in to do a strong arm robbery. One grabs him in a bear hug and money is demanded.
The owner says to his wife,"Baby, give me my gun." She places a revolver in his hand. At this point, the robbers decide to leave very quickly. He gives pursuit and is close behind one when he fires a round into the ground and shouts,"Stop or I'll shoot you in the back!" The would be robber stops, turns, and lunges for the owner while saying,"I'll make you eat that gun." The owner replied,"Eat this." And fired one round, killing the man. The owner was questioned for three hours or so and released. He was never arrested, charged, or indicted. The family of the deceased robber could not find an attorney willing to sue for wrongful death on a contigency basis. This occurred in Waynesboro, Georgia about 1985.

If you want Georgia's self defense laws to apply to you then you had best not take up criminal pursuits. The application of these laws in Georgia are very different, in most cases, from the letter of the law.

Quartus · May 31, 2001, 01:00 PM

Quote:

The application of these laws in Georgia are very different, in most cases, from the letter of the law.

Sounds like the good citizens of Georgia have more sense than those in many other states!

Country Boy · May 31, 2001, 04:12 PM

"Texas law, as written, clearly states that if a reasonable and prudent person has reason to believe that the one running away is an ONGOING THREAT TO THE COMMUNITY, deadly force can be used."

I like Texas.

"She shot him in the side of the head," said witness Gaylin McDaniels, "and when he hit the ground, she hesitated, and shot him twice in the back."

I was going to throw my full support behind the woman until I read the above quote. Now I'm not so sure. In a stressful situation, I could see someone dropping the perp as he ran away. I could see a back shot being needed in certain circumstances (he's turning around to get a weapon). But I have a hard time swallowing shooting someone in the back while they were on the ground.

Bottom line: I wasn't there, and I shouldn't play armchair quarterback.

Byron Quick · May 31, 2001, 04:59 PM

Tell you what. If I see someone kill my mother, I will shoot them when I can, how I can, and as many times as I have ammunition in my gun. When the slide racks back and I see them twitch, I will change magazines and empty another one.

Double Naught Spy · June 1, 2001, 01:12 PM

Spartacus, you are a cruel and vicious man, but when it comes to mothers, anything less would not be good enough.

Quartus · June 1, 2001, 03:23 PM

Quote:

"She shot him in the side of the head," said witness Gaylin McDaniels, "and when he hit the ground, she hesitated, and shot him twice in the back."

Reminds me of that line from Alice's Restaraunt:

"Opie said he was makin' sure, and friends, Opie was makin' sure."

Don't assume that two shots in the side of the head had to be fatal. Wish I could remember where (Farnam's site?) but I just read a discussion on gunshot wounds to the head. Bottom line - not always fatal.

Marko Kloos · June 2, 2001, 09:32 AM

I'm with Spartacus on this one. If you harm me or the ones close to me, you'd best hope your account with your particular deity is in good standing.

CarbineKid · June 2, 2001, 10:03 AM

Intresting discussion. my only question is: Whatever happened to common sense? Who cares if she killed her kidnapper/mothers murderor??? I would have done the same thing...who wouldn't. Who would say, "well hes running away now so I'll stop"?? Especially after he killed your mother? I know this is considered unlawful, and its against a stupid law, but this guy had it coming. Hes scum and he deserved to be shot down like a dog.

Gottagetme1 · June 3, 2001, 11:52 PM

Yep couldn't agree more. You da man Spartacus

neoncowboy · July 5, 2004, 03:55 PM

I was reading this just today and interested mostly in the legal aspects.

I don't know what GA gun law was like at the time (2001), but now I thought the statutes authorized citizen use of deadly force in self-defense, other-defense or to prevent a forcible felony: http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin...l?code=16-3-21

Now, there wasn't really enough information in the original newspaper report for some of the comments I read here. What was reported wasn't even accurate. I did some 'research' (read: Googled) and found this: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/infor...em.asp?ID=2094

What if the shooter knew the guy had a loaded gun in the truck and he was running away from her but toward the truck?

This case is interesting to me as I am moving to Georgia (I grew up there but have been away for 10 years) this fall.

RWK · July 5, 2004, 06:24 PM

You and I agree in almost every issue, so I hope you’ll not be offended with my SUPPOSITION that the lady’s odds are at least 75:25 in her favor. I certainly agree with all the legalities you have stated, but in the end:
(1) Prosecutors are popularly elected (at least in most jurisdictions); and
(2) In Georgia, Tennessee, and other southeastern states, the jury (if it come to it) is going to ask fundamentally who is the criminal and who is the victim, leading to acquittal (or, at the very least, a hung jury).

With best regards -- Roy

goalie · July 5, 2004, 07:01 PM

If she ended up in court and I was her lawyer, I would argue that the history of the assailant led the shooter to believe that leaving the abductor alive would reasonably result in her (eventual) death at his hands, and she acted accordingly.

Oldphart · July 6, 2004, 01:08 AM

I no longer remember all the details (oldtimers disease, I guess) but several years ago a local drug dealer let the town know that he was going to "get even" with a young woman who caused him some problems. Before he could carry out his threat, the father of the young woman walked up to the dealer in a bar and shot him in the head, killing him on the spot. He was charged of course, but his attorney pointed out that the man felt that his daughter was in danger from the drug dealer. The father walked.

Sometimes the "Justice System" works extremely well, just not like it was designed to.

Fred Hansen · July 6, 2004, 02:28 AM

I'm Spartacus!!!

Quote:

Had this happened at a truckstop in most parts of west Texas, she'd get a medal and a victory parade--and a collection would be taken up for first-class airfare home.

Gotta love that Texas too!!!

Quote:

Folks, this little gem happened in Dalton, GA, U.S.A., not some third-world country like Kalifornia or Hilloryork. She'll not only not be indicted, she'll probably be given a key to the city and a parade around the town square.

The more civilized the place, the more common sense abounds. Kommiefornia? Hitlery Yawk? :barf:

Here's hoping that the nice lady gets a parade and a medal.

Quartus · July 6, 2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Sometimes the "Justice System" works extremely well, just not like it was designed to.

Actually, I think that's EXACTLY how the FF intended the system to work. Common people using common sense dispensing JUSTICE, instead of legal wrangling over the letter of the law by over paid and reality challenged judges and lawyers.

Any .45 · July 6, 2004, 04:12 PM

Good for her, good shooting is a plus especially when it's the BG's gun.

June 2, 2001, 09:32 AM	#33
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	I'm with Spartacus on this one. If you harm me or the ones close to me, you'd best hope your account with your particular deity is in good standing. __________________ "The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." --A.E. Van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher the munchkin wrangler.

July 5, 2004, 03:55 PM	#36
neoncowboy Member Join Date: June 19, 2004 Posts: 21	I know it's old news... I was reading this just today and interested mostly in the legal aspects. I don't know what GA gun law was like at the time (2001), but now I thought the statutes authorized citizen use of deadly force in self-defense, other-defense or to prevent a forcible felony: http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin...l?code=16-3-21 Now, there wasn't really enough information in the original newspaper report for some of the comments I read here. What was reported wasn't even accurate. I did some 'research' (read: Googled) and found this: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/infor...em.asp?ID=2094 What if the shooter knew the guy had a loaded gun in the truck and he was running away from her but toward the truck? This case is interesting to me as I am moving to Georgia (I grew up there but have been away for 10 years) this fall.

July 5, 2004, 06:24 PM	#37
RWK Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 1999 Location: Occupied Virginia Posts: 2,777	Mike . . . You and I agree in almost every issue, so I hope you’ll not be offended with my SUPPOSITION that the lady’s odds are at least 75:25 in her favor. I certainly agree with all the legalities you have stated, but in the end: (1) Prosecutors are popularly elected (at least in most jurisdictions); and (2) In Georgia, Tennessee, and other southeastern states, the jury (if it come to it) is going to ask fundamentally who is the criminal and who is the victim, leading to acquittal (or, at the very least, a hung jury). With best regards -- Roy __________________ __________________ Μολών λαβέ!

July 6, 2004, 01:08 AM	#39
Oldphart Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 375	Abductee shoots kidnapper I no longer remember all the details (oldtimers disease, I guess) but several years ago a local drug dealer let the town know that he was going to "get even" with a young woman who caused him some problems. Before he could carry out his threat, the father of the young woman walked up to the dealer in a bar and shot him in the head, killing him on the spot. He was charged of course, but his attorney pointed out that the man felt that his daughter was in danger from the drug dealer. The father walked. Sometimes the "Justice System" works extremely well, just not like it was designed to.

July 6, 2004, 04:12 PM	#42
Any .45 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2004 Location: SW FLORIDA, USA Posts: 604	Good for her, good shooting is a plus especially when it's the BG's gun. __________________ Foster and polish The warior spirit While serving in the world; Illuminate the path According to your inner light" "Spring forth from the Great Earth; Billow like Great Waves; Stand like a tree, sit like a rock; Use One to strike All. Learn and forget! " "At the instant A warrior Confronts a foe, All things Come into focus" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) Founder of Aikido

May 31, 2001, 12:17 AM	#26
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	question, how did she know he was dead? was she sure that the round to the head killed him? for all she knew (and for all we know) he tripped, fell down, she may have seen him move and considered him a threat, so she popped 2 more COM. all we have is the word of an "eye witness" (and we know how reliable they are) who probably wouldn't know a handgun from a honest politican. let alone know if the sumbag was dead or not.

May 31, 2001, 06:37 AM	#27
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	As the article reads, her actions are contrary to the self defense laws of Georgia. But based on watching many other similar situations here in Georgia, I would bet the farm that she will never be indicted. I will be surprised if it is even brought up before a grand jury. An acquaintance of mine runs a small service station. He's a little guy. One day three men comes in to do a strong arm robbery. One grabs him in a bear hug and money is demanded. The owner says to his wife,"Baby, give me my gun." She places a revolver in his hand. At this point, the robbers decide to leave very quickly. He gives pursuit and is close behind one when he fires a round into the ground and shouts,"Stop or I'll shoot you in the back!" The would be robber stops, turns, and lunges for the owner while saying,"I'll make you eat that gun." The owner replied,"Eat this." And fired one round, killing the man. The owner was questioned for three hours or so and released. He was never arrested, charged, or indicted. The family of the deceased robber could not find an attorney willing to sue for wrongful death on a contigency basis. This occurred in Waynesboro, Georgia about 1985. If you want Georgia's self defense laws to apply to you then you had best not take up criminal pursuits. The application of these laws in Georgia are very different, in most cases, from the letter of the law.

May 31, 2001, 04:12 PM	#29
Country Boy Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2000 Location: Northern Border Posts: 699	"Texas law, as written, clearly states that if a reasonable and prudent person has reason to believe that the one running away is an ONGOING THREAT TO THE COMMUNITY, deadly force can be used." I like Texas. "She shot him in the side of the head," said witness Gaylin McDaniels, "and when he hit the ground, she hesitated, and shot him twice in the back." I was going to throw my full support behind the woman until I read the above quote. Now I'm not so sure. In a stressful situation, I could see someone dropping the perp as he ran away. I could see a back shot being needed in certain circumstances (he's turning around to get a weapon). But I have a hard time swallowing shooting someone in the back while they were on the ground. Bottom line: I wasn't there, and I shouldn't play armchair quarterback.

May 31, 2001, 04:59 PM	#30
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	Tell you what. If I see someone kill my mother, I will shoot them when I can, how I can, and as many times as I have ammunition in my gun. When the slide racks back and I see them twitch, I will change magazines and empty another one.

June 1, 2001, 01:12 PM	#31
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Spartacus, you are a cruel and vicious man, but when it comes to mothers, anything less would not be good enough.

June 2, 2001, 10:03 AM	#34
CarbineKid Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2001 Posts: 252	Intresting discussion. my only question is: Whatever happened to common sense? Who cares if she killed her kidnapper/mothers murderor??? I would have done the same thing...who wouldn't. Who would say, "well hes running away now so I'll stop"?? Especially after he killed your mother? I know this is considered unlawful, and its against a stupid law, but this guy had it coming. Hes scum and he deserved to be shot down like a dog.

June 3, 2001, 11:52 PM	#35
Gottagetme1 Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 91	Yep couldn't agree more. You da man Spartacus

July 5, 2004, 07:01 PM	#38
goalie Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Minnetonka, MN Posts: 120	If she ended up in court and I was her lawyer, I would argue that the history of the assailant led the shooter to believe that leaving the abductor alive would reasonably result in her (eventual) death at his hands, and she acted accordingly.