AR-15 haters club part4

[MAD DOG]

Ken Cook,
Nice try, but it holds no more water than the AR design integrity.

This particular critic not only trashes the work of the Stonerites, but has also designed and built weapons himself for nearly 22 years.
I have also designed and built rocket engines that set world records for thrust in Hybrid Rocket Engines, designed medical/surgical equipment, and designed thermal stabilization devices used on spy satellites. I have also built/designed a patented soldering system that was awarded the "Design News" magazine "Design of the Year Award".

I have patents issued and issuing on new systems for carrying/deploying explosives, new ammunition projectiles, and more.

I have served as a weapons engineering consultant to US Navy Special Warfare, the Pentagon, and the USMC.

I know whereof I speak.

Mad Dog

[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Blue Duck357]

Mr. Cook

Fact #1: Yes it's a fine target rifle.

Fact #2: Yes head shot's should be effective.

Fact #3: Yes the Germans in WWII who invented the term "Assualt Rifle" were gun grabbers.

Fact #4: Yes there are currently M-16 A2 currently in service as well as other designations.

My fact's it's not reliable under less than ideal conditions and it goes "Spoooiiiinnng" when you fire it, 'nough said

[George Hill]

Excuse me... The M16A2 Service Rifle sucks, as there is no such thing as an "AR" or Assault Rifle.

Your right - until just now, I was UNINFORMED even while teaching ARM at Benning or operating in drug interdiction mission in Central and South America... or the whole time I wore nifty cammos that some guy in a round flat wide brimmed hat that yeled alot threw at me...

YOU are the font of all M16A2 Service Rifle knowledge and I bow to your wisdom.

Excuse the sarcasm... But I am seeing an Al Gore like vibe that someones experiences are more factual and truthful than others.

Rik is right - You are not going to change our opinion that the M16 and all its clones and variants are 3rd rate... We are not going to change your opinion that the M16 and its forms are if kept clean enough, worthy rifles.
SO - take a deep breath and dont get so worked up.
This is just a discussion where some of us are having a lot of fun deriding something we dont like... Come on... Chill... Drink a Shinner and smile and dont give it another thought. Start you own thread about the Merrits of the AR series.

Anyways...
Shin - That Rocked.
I'm LMAO over here.

[STRIDER]

All hail brother Mad Dog.

[cuerno de chivo]

Has anyone noticed all the M16s showing up with the Palenstinians over in Israel?

[MAD DOG]

The Palestinians deserve M16s.

Right back at ya, Brother Strider!

[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited November 10, 2000).]

[George Hill]

I got an idea.
For the next Utah Gathering lets run a test.
If we can gather the following:
2 different AR-15s
2 different autoloading rifles that are in a BATTLE RIFLE catagory.
a case or 2 of ammo for the different calibers.

Before hand we will detail strip the rifles, insuring that they are indeed cleaned flawlessly and lubed properly to mil spec.

We'll then do a little DRAG RACE.
Firing rounds until a stoppage occures.
The ARs total will be added together and compaired with the other rifle combined score.

Then we shall clean the rifles again.
Then simulate a real crappy day that any given soldier could have...
We will drop (or gently submerge) into some nice gooy mud... take a canteens worth of water for a rinse... and then Drag Race again.

The next Utah Gathering will also be a full blown advanced pistol course - but this will make for a fun side event.
When will this happen? I dont know... March? April? Who knows - but ANY TFL member is welcome to come - Date Time and Place will be posted well in advanced. Rik - you could come and race your own AR if you like to insure accuracy of the counting...
We would hate to be accused of pulling a Florida!

[MAD DOG]

I think that the mud portion should be less than gentle. Truly simulating my favorite, the "running diving face plant and thirty yard crawl uphill in mud while under fire", would be ideal. The crawler could be shot in the butt with an Airsoft gun any time he broke cover, thereby assuring suitable ground hugging and weapon immersion/muddification.

The "falling off of a hillside and rolling over the rifle repeatedly" portion could be optional, I suppose. (I did this in Africa... DOH!)
The thusly muddied ones would then have to sit in a hole while cleaning their weapon out.

At any rate, I would love to be there, and I will bring a real rifle.



[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Gewehr98]

When is it? I wanna go, too! But I won't bring my preban Colt, I'll bring my preban Beretta BM-59 Nigerian, which, if folks don't know, was another logical outgrowth of Saint Garand, patron saint of rifles that function under adverse conditions, much like the M1 and M14...

[Spectre]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken Cook:
FACT 1.
AR15/M16s now consistantly beat the pants off of the infallable 7.62 M14s in long range matches now...[/quote]

And I read why the military teams transitioned to the AR. It was to give confidence to others (grunts) using the system, not because they actually preferred it. One of the strongest proponents of the AR I know will list several tests that should always be performed on new, unaltered AR's, because doubling is common.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

FACT 2. The AR15/M16 may not "blow someone's head clean off" but it will remove enough that you will die before you start falling ...
[/quote]

Though this conversation is not properly about cartridge, the truth is that bullet design may be the most important part of this equation. It would seem to be a (n obvious) given though, that if one starts with more considerably more power, one is likely to end with more power as well. "Power" can be measured by the argumentative in numerous ways, so to those: .308 typically fires a round almost 3x as heavy as .223. If one were bored and reduced the weight of the bullet, one could fire a .308 round considerably faster than .223, though those with a good knowledge of how cartridge projectiles work will know that this is an example of diminishing returns, due to bore erosion...anyway...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

FACT 3. The M16/AR15 is NOT an "Assault Rifle." There is no such THING as an "Assault Rifle" as this is a term invented by the gun grabbers. Shame on you for being duped into using it. You further their cause every time the word blabbers from your lips.[/quote]

Um...actually, you're going to distance yourself from the others who agree with you about AR's with this one, because most everyone else knows better.
An assault rifle fires an "intermediate" caliber round, with both semi and full-auto capability. The original "assault rifle" was called...an assault rifle, of all things! (Go figure. "Sturmgewehr." Storm= v. tr.

"To assault." &lt;Dictionary.com&gt; )
ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA


assault rifle

military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Leave the uninformed opinions at home, bring facts[/quote]

Hokay. Here's a fact. The phrase you are actually confusing is "assault WEAPON", for which there IS no generally accepted definition (UNLIKE assault rifle). The US inventory lists exactly one, the breaching unit acronymed SMAW.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken Cook:

Ever notice that Critics always trash the Author's work but never write a book themselves? Wonder why that is?
[/quote]

Well...I seem to recall Sir Mad Dog as having written a book. I have written a book. I don't know if he has anything in print, but I have read an essay from George Hill, and I know HE is an accomplished author.

But you were actually drawing a comparison with weapons. The chief protagonist in these threads owns a company that makes hand-to-hand tools that some "in the know" believe to be the best in the world. I may not always agree with Kevin, but I will be very hesitant to say he doesn't know what he's talking about. I would be even less likely to say that to George.

[MAD DOG]

Should we allow condoms over the muzzles, or just go for down and dirty all the way?

Are there no takers in the M16 camp?
Come on, Stonerites, put up or shut up!

PLEEEEZ don't be the sort of fellows that can go 100mph on a keyboard, and then have no cajones to show in the real world...

[Correia]

Ahh, the next Utah Gathering. It should be fun. I can bring a FAL and a Bushmaster Dissipator, my lurker friend who has come to the last two get togthers can bring an AK, Bushmaster shorty, and an SKS. All of you other folks from out of state should come on down also. We can find places for you to stay.

[EchoFiveMike]

So, gents....
How would you improve the M16's operating system. I really don't think the durability is an issue, as I have seen them dropped from helos(29Palms from Huey at circa 50ft), dropped from 5-tons(idiot driving down the road from the ASP towards Courthouse Bay Camp Lejeune) and I've used them for H2H and bayonet work a little bit and never had any problems. The mags look kinda flimsy, but I've never had problems with them. I have had problems with an Ak mag(that someone must have used to drive stakes) and all sorts of M9 mags(evil thing that also sucks) Obviously you've had different experiences, but then again were they things that another rifle would have survived or were they stuff like using your rifle muzzle to dig firing pits and stuff like that? So everyone is irate about the gas system? How to fix it? Oh, and the M16 varients kick ass in competetion because they are more accurate and have less recoil, they are also more durable than the M14 for target use. And they are cheaper to make right. However that is not neccessarily relevant here. Semper Fi...Ken

[JWR]

This is fun! It's like wrestling pigs! I must throw in more sets of two pennies.
$.02 #1 For anybody with military experience, the following scene is familiar: All the troops show up on the range with their trusty M16. They have been cleaned to various levels (the weapons of the LTs in our unit are subject to suprise inspection by the Battalion Commander; thus, mine has had every last vestige of carbon, dirt and dust carefully removed from every part (complete disassembly, not just a field strip) prior to turn-in). The gunked-up rifles are treated to liberal amounts of break-free, mine gets a squirt. My rifle fires the 49 shots to confirm zero and qualify without incident. The young soldier next to me doesn't understand why his rifle won't chamber the next round. More break free. Now it chambers, but won't eject. More break free. Chambers and ejects fine until halfway through his second attempt at qualification that day. After 200 rounds and a pint of breakfree, someone ponies up their clean rifle. He qualifies the next time after getting to fire 40 shots at 40 targets.
Yes, the M16 works until it gets dirty. Those of you with $1,000 Bushmasters don't experience this because you don't treat your rifle like the ignorant, lazy soldier. I wouldn't either.
.02 #2 I've seen pictures of ballistic ordnance shot with M85 (heavy ball penetrator) and M155 (light ball) They both fragment into 2-3 pieces (without having to hit bone), and leave a nasty looking channel. Oddly, nobody shot a block of jelly with a 308 or 30-06 SP or HP for comparison. Maybe they didn't think it would have been fair. On the other hand, a few years ago the hometown paper ran an article on a local who was shot in the head with a 30-06 (about 1/3 of the left side of his head was gone) during a hunting accident, recovered (as fully as he could), and went hunting the next season.
$.02 #3 All the REMFs like me aren't getting M4s right now. Nearly the entire army is going to the M4, Divisional units by priority (REMF and Combat Arms at the same time), then to Corps/non-Div units like mine. Our HET unit has them, but nobody else. From what I've seen, the folks who can't hit with the M16 can't hit with the M4, and the opposite is true.

$.02 #4 I hate that SPROOIIINNGG, too.

[MAD DOG]

Here's yet another thing to hate!
Fire the M16 full auto with a suppressor on it. The gas back pressure releases through the action's upper, and then into the shooters face/lungs. It feels like having your head shoved into a can of ammonia floor cleaner.
What fun!

DFTT

[MAD DOG]

What does "DFTT" stand for?

[Gewehr98]

How to improve the AR-15/M16? Look at the Daewoo, or ZM Weapons approach. AK-style gas piston, but still an AR lower. No more "defecating where it eats", how about that? Betcha the action fouling and subsequent reliability issues would go bye-bye, too.

My 14 years of active duty experience are Air Force, mostly as aircrew, so I can't relate anything about dragging M16's through the mud, sorry. I can, however, relate that the day I qualified with the M16 in basic, back in April of 1986, the recruit to the left of me (a southpaw from the U.S. Virgin Islands, I'll never forget his enthusiasm for the Air Force) had a slamfire that burned his right cornea. He never finished basic.

I've requalified with the M16 several times since then, prior to overseas assignments of for deployments. While I feel the current system of 25yard reduced targets, simulating 200 meter engagements, is weak at best, it is after all the Air Force, arguably the most 9-to-5, Monday-through-Friday branch of the military, and it's a miracle we even shoot any small arms or attempt proficiency. Those of us who do shoot off-duty, seldom have trouble qualifying expert when the time comes. But I sure as heck would rather rely on a Marine or Army member if it got to a ground shooting conflict. The last time I qualified with the M16 at McClellan AFB, my issue rifle was an early variant, no forward assist or brass deflector, vintage bullet-dial rear sight, and as I looked it over, the instructor noticed my confusion. Forward of the receiver, the gun had the 1-7" HBAR profile barrel, round handguard, and solid-bottom flash hider. They couldn't afford complete new guns, so they were just rebarreled. Weird, but it shot well enough to get expert again.

When my wife fired my preban Colt Competition HBAR, the first words out of her mouth were "What's up with the "Sproingg?" She still feels my Kalashnikov is a better rifle, and to this day refers to the Colt as "Sproingg". And I even greased the recoil buffer and spring.

Wonder what John Moses and John Cantius would say if they were around?

[Correia]

EchoFiveMike;

The ways to fix the operating system would be to:

A. Change the bolt carrier, and gas tube in favor of a tube with a piston that reciprocates onto the carrier. Add a gas regulator under the front sight.

B. Change the bolt & bolt fact to get rid of that ridiculous little ejector, and install a fixed ejector.

C. Loosen the tolerances a little bit. Sub MOA is great, but more reliable is better.

D. Make a shorter bolt carrier, and use an internal recoil spring instead of the buffer that extends into the stock (the source of the sproing). That way the military could have some good folding stocks instead of that telescoping dealie.

Thats to fix the gun.

or

E. Get rid of it, exercise our American ingenuity and build the greatest military rifle the world has ever seen. A modular weapon system, more reliable than the M16, more accurate than the AK, and capable of being used as a tent stake or pry bar if neccesary, availible in a regular or bullpup configuration as neccesary.

[MAD DOG]

JMB is undoubtedly spinning in his grave.

It's Don't Feed The Troll(s). After 4 iterations, this is getting more shrill than the Gore camp's crying over the Palm Beach ballot.

Then don't read the thread? Okay - then don't use a gun you don't like.

[Steve Smith]

Mad Dog and George, if I can make it to the Utah shoot, I'll be more than willing to play the "nud game" with BOTH my AK and my FAL. BTW, I'd like there to be two logs on the far side of the mud, about 4' apart...rest your rifle across them, (muxxle on one, end of buttstock on the other) and the participant sits (full weight)on his rifle for 30 seconds. Obviously, I'm not worried about my rifles getting hurt...they won't!

[Correia]

Uh, Frontsight, I'm probably to heavy to sit on anybodys rifle for an extended period of time.

[DUDE]

i will say what i said one more time, in the long run this Topic is not going to do any good. MAD DOG and all the guys like him will still not like the M16, and all the guys like me will still like the M16, and you can go on and on and on and it still is not going to do any good the U.S. Military will still use the M16 Series of Rifles, and U.S. Soldier's will still carry the M16 into combat. so lets stop and say that ther are guys that like the M16 and ther are guys that don't like the M16. ok

------------------
Technical Sergeant Andrew Robert Smith
CO LRRP Team
of the Second Ranger Battalion Charlie Company in WW2 Online.

[John/az2]

hehehe! This has been a fun thread series to read.

I'm definately game for the Utah shoot, but make it for JUNE! (please... )

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

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