Bad features for a defensive handgun - Page 2

**4V50 Gary** · October 25, 2002, 09:40 AM

Customized target guns. No extended safeties, or extended slide releases, or things which may catch on your clothing.

Keep it simple and don't take a prima donna to a gunfight. You want something that is completely reliable and can take a diet of any and all ammunition you wish to feed it.

**Mike Irwin** · October 25, 2002, 12:45 PM

"Goes to a tight retention position, lights up the target, puts one shot in the head and gets absolutely fragged with gasses venting up all over his chest and up (UNDER) his glasses."

Crimson,

Yep, EXACTLY my concern, one that I've voice here numerous times before. I'd much rather leave the porting off and reduce the chances of accidentally blinding myself.

Sundance,

It helps if you type with BOTH trigger fingers. Keeping one in your nose cuts your typing speed by roughly 50%.

Dr.Rob · October 25, 2002, 05:43 PM

It shouldn't be ported, have "hi profile" target sights, or be in a caliber under 38/.380. It should have a grip you can get your hand around (rather than leaving your ring finger and pinkie dangling).

The rest is a matter of personal taste.

Personally I don't like DA/SA pistols (unless its a revolver). or frame mounted safeties. But plenty of people like them.

CastleBravo · October 25, 2002, 06:15 PM

It doesn't work (obvious).
It has things that are too fragile (optics).
You personally can't hit with it (bad ergonomics/trigger/sights for you).
If you do hit with it, it doesn't matter (too weak a caliber).
You can't bring it into action quickly (excess bulk, things that snag, controls you can't reach, etc.).

Side note: on a 1911, a magwell isn't necessarily a bad thing for a real weapon. You can cut the frame shorter before you fit it, so you don't increase the bulk, you can melt the edges so it doesn't snag, and the big ol' hole does make for faster reloads. It is hard to break a welded-on piece of steel. On the other hand, some of the competition magwells are just nutty... funnels the size of frisbees need not apply.

Chugach · October 25, 2002, 08:02 PM

"Sticky" grips that hang on clothing.

Patrick Murphy · October 25, 2002, 08:57 PM

No safeties, nothing under .380/.38, no single-action revolvers. DAO autos and DA revolvers are my favorites.

Robert Foote · October 25, 2002, 11:16 PM

KISS about covers it. Ed Heinneman (sp?) who designed the A-4 Skyhawk, said his goal was to simplify and add lightness.

Stuff to shun:

A gun that has any tendency to malfunction at any time, for any reason. Get rid of it asap.

A gun that doesn't let you shoot your best. It's not great unless it's great in your hands. I have $150 guns that make me look great and pricey ones that constantly embarrass me.

Safeties, dohickies, disconnectors, newfangled action locks. Murphy rules.

'Sticky' grips (well put) or grips that do not fit your hand. Even more obvious, guns that are too big for said hand.

Gunshop commando crap. If the sights are big, bold, and easy to see, and the trigger is one you can live and hit with, leave the gun alone.

Action jobs by Joe the Plumber.

Any gun that has fewer than two wars or two decades of hard street use to its credit.

Guns that qualify in my book are good basic 1911s, K frame Smiths, Ruger double action Six series guns. M870 Remington and M1A the same.

WESHOOT2 · October 26, 2002, 08:16 AM

I hate sharp crisp edges on my guns.

Erik · October 26, 2002, 11:12 AM

Bad features on a defensive handgun:

Most everything other than night sights commonly added on.

marca · October 26, 2002, 11:46 AM

I will no longer buy brands that have to be sent to some distant parallel universe for factory repair work. I've had some brands that make a round trip with 1 to 2 weeks and others that have taken 6 to 8 weeks for fairly simple and minor work. The delays have always been due to poor customer service rather than complexity of work. Does little good to have a nice gun if you have to part with it for long periods of time.

19114EVER · October 26, 2002, 11:51 AM

Anything less than .45 ACP in caliber.
Anything not made by Colt, Kimber, Wilson, AO (new Kahr, of course), Les Baer, Ed Brown, or Springfield.
Anything double stack mag, too wide for my hand.
Any DA or DA/SA.

Yes, I'm narrow minded.

nsf003 · October 26, 2002, 01:48 PM

I don't like having a mechanical safety on my gun. A decocker on a semi is ok. Nothing to fumble with when there is a guy with a knife charging you. I like it when i can just point my 357 and shoot. Easy. KISS is a great rule.

nsf

Mannlicher · October 26, 2002, 03:42 PM

I agree with your first two Grizz, and would add that I would not buy a 'ported' gun for serious social work.

seeker_two · October 27, 2002, 02:53 PM

Any gun that deviates significantly from its ORIGINAL design.

The 1911 originally designed by John Browning was a superb firearm. When you start adding on junk like guide rods & extended buttons & other junk, it compromises its function & reliability. Same thing w/ any other firearm. KISS...

BTW, single-action revolvers can make a good defensive handgun. I know a few guys who carry them for CCW; and, after having seen them shoot, I don't think they're poorly armed. Practice is the key....

Tropical Z · October 27, 2002, 03:38 PM

Hi-Point handguns are another brand that has a mag disconnect.

aquapong · October 27, 2002, 05:25 PM

1. a manual safety - I will not have one on any of my "for real" handguns, but on the play guns it fine

2. must be proven to be reliable

3. must be dao or have a non slide-mounted decocker

4. basically, it must be from one of these companies: Glock, Sig, Taurus revolvers, CZ, or Ruger.

New_comer · October 27, 2002, 05:31 PM

Anything that looks like it's gonna be auctioned at Sotheby's or Cristie's.

You'd be inviting trouble with a piece like that...

Gonzo_308 · October 27, 2002, 06:13 PM

1) Slide mounted safety.
2) Too small to use effectively
3) Too heavy to be comfortable carrying

Oracle · October 27, 2002, 06:26 PM

For defensive handguns:

I don't like manual safeties (basically, if you have to do anything other than pull the trigger for the gun to go bang, then I don't like it on a defensive handgun)

I like a gun that has the same trigger pull, every time, even if it has a heavy trigger pull. No DA/SA guns for me (at least, as defensive handguns).

I don't like anything that can catch on clothing easily, such as a prominent external hammer, overdone beavertails, or high-riding sights that can easily catch on something. Like has been said before, the gun should feel like a used bar of soap, nothing to really catch on things.

This means that I pretty much like Glocks, some DAO autos, and bobbed hammer (or hammerless) revolvers for defensive work. But, that's just my personal opinions, YMMV.

satxman · October 27, 2002, 09:02 PM

My requirements.

1. no more than 6" long.
2. light to carry, 22 ounces or so. I can get lighter gun back to target faster than heavier weapons. Less mass I guess.
3. .45 caliber, my prejudice for big and subsonic.
4. 10+1 capacity
5. DOA for consistent trigger pull, period. Light single action trigger is not for me when it comes to self defense. Shooting at paper it is totally cool, under stress just too touchy in dynamic action (running, ducking, seeking cover, changing hands, etc.) for me, that is. Could care less about "gritty" trigger and other such silliness. No trigger jobs as long as trigger works.
6. Must have manual safety as I use the safety to carry strong side thumb and have trained to sweep down on safety. Easy for anyone who walks upright and can chew gum at the same time. I know how to operate the safety, the BG may have trouble if he gets the gun unless he trained in doing so as well.
7. Must be able to control for rapid fire till lock back at 7 yards. No double taps, pure firing till lock back or until BG drops from sight picture.
8. No snags, hammers, beavertails or such. Must be striker fired.
9. I like mag disconnects for retention issues, but alas....
10. Have shown at least 1000 rounds of dependability and that is minimum.
11. Must be able to get all three fingers of strong side hand on grip. More important for retention and control purposes than shooting purposes. I can shoot with one finger on grip.
12. Must point and fire well from retention position. Practice, it's important.
13. Should be able to remove sights and still hit COM at 7 yards, the point being, you don't need adjustable sights for personal defense. The opportunity for you to accurately "sight your target" is very remote. Do require fixed, night sights so I can find the gun easily. Getting old.
14. Must be able to handle recoil and torque one handed both strong and weak side. If you can't, keep practicing or change weapons. Very important.

Whew! Thats all I need.

satxman · October 27, 2002, 09:57 PM

Bad Features. Remember, this is a PD weapon not a target or competive shooting weapon.

1. Longer than 6" total.
No need

2. Heavier than 26 ounces.
I can control lighter weapons to get back on target sooner than larger heavier weapons. Must be the mass.

3. Smaller caliber than .45
(my prejudice for big and sub-sonic)

4. Less capacity than 10+1
Why would I want less?

5. Single action triggers.
Much to touchy for me in dynamic action. (moving, running, ducking, rolling, changing hands) Want regular, expected 8-10 lbs pull, DAO. Don't care about "gritty triggers" and other silliness. I promise you, you will not notice "gritty" trigger when the SHTF. No trigger jobs unless trigger doesn't work.

6. No safety. Issue very Important to me.
I use the safety as a thumb carry for my strong side. I have trained to sweep down which BTW anyone who walks upright and doesn't have a prehensiled tail can learn to do. Having my thumb ride the safety keeps my grip up high on the weapon. Also, if the BG gets the gun, he may have trouble operating the gun just like a lot of people on this forum would have, unless he trained otherwise. You see, I can shoot a weapon that has a safety or one that doesn't as I always sweep. If no safety, so be it. Now if you never train to disengage a safety, you will stumble snatching up another weapon that has one. Could be embarassing.

7. Short grips
Need three finger room. Not so much for shooting. Can shoot with one finger, but more for control and retention.

8 Adjustable sights
Should be able to shoot till lock back to COM at 7 yards without sights at all. Do get wrapped up in target shooting your PD gun. practice, fast, faster, fastest to COM. Just give me fixed with night sights as I need to see the gun on the bed stead. Getting old. Also, helps in firing from retention position in dark.

9. Hammers, beavertails etc.
Must be striker fired. period. Hands and objects can be place between the hammer and the firing pin. Just like the much beloved manual decock. I guess it all depends on who has control of the weapon, huh. What a horrible thought. Bad guy at my face, my single action cocked and locked, I unlock and pull the trigger and the BG is holding/obstucting the hammer. Ouch! I still want a 1911 but not as my PD, CCW weapon.

10. Undependability
Must have 1000 rounds minimum to be a PD gun for me. Any excessive or recurring problems and the gun is out of there.

Something I really need.

I must not only feel confident that the weapon will not let me down but I must also be able to wrap it up, control it, make it an extension of body. I must be able to fire it at retention and strike COM. I must be able to shoot it sideways, upside down, on my back, on my side, stong hand, weak hand. Must control the felt recoil, the tourque and the follow through. I always practice 75% of the time with the PD weapon so I guess I will never be a marksman.

Blah, blah, blah, just the rantings of a novice.

satxman · October 27, 2002, 09:58 PM

Aaaarrrh! So sorry for two separate rantings.

Correia · October 28, 2002, 01:40 PM

Sundance,

I do not recall when this happened, because it happened before I moved to Utah, but a SL cop (can't recall if it was city or county) was beaten down by a crazy guy. Had his Smith taken from him. Bad guy pulled trigger repeatedly nothing happened. Bad guy looked for safety. Released mag instead. Bad guy gave up in frustration and ran away.

Ayoob has a bunch of documented cases. Every once in a while he will have a bunch in an article. I cannot verify the accuracy of any of these of course, but I don't see that he has any reason to lie.

boing · October 28, 2002, 11:17 PM

There are a few posts from TFLers who have been saved, or had their partners saved, by mag disconnects. This includes at least one person who is not LE.

Sundance · October 29, 2002, 08:46 AM

Well perhaps it has happened (the mag release save) but I just don't buy it a valid technique. And I doubt it has happened as much as some say it has. My local City, County, and State agencies all carried S&W 5906 pistols at one point. I know of no mag release saves. Learn proper weapon retention techniques and proper unarmed fighting techniques. If an unarmed suspect tries to get your weapon from you, he is now an armed suspect. If you are able to drop the mag, then you are probably able to put 2 in his chest and would be totally justified in doing so. And now, anything goes. Knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands...kill the SOB before he kills you.

October 25, 2002, 09:40 AM	#26
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,843	Customized target guns. No extended safeties, or extended slide releases, or things which may catch on your clothing. Keep it simple and don't take a prima donna to a gunfight. You want something that is completely reliable and can take a diet of any and all ammunition you wish to feed it. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 25, 2002, 12:45 PM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Goes to a tight retention position, lights up the target, puts one shot in the head and gets absolutely fragged with gasses venting up all over his chest and up (UNDER) his glasses." Crimson, Yep, EXACTLY my concern, one that I've voice here numerous times before. I'd much rather leave the porting off and reduce the chances of accidentally blinding myself. Sundance, It helps if you type with BOTH trigger fingers. Keeping one in your nose cuts your typing speed by roughly 50%. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 25, 2002, 05:43 PM	#28
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	It shouldn't be ported, have "hi profile" target sights, or be in a caliber under 38/.380. It should have a grip you can get your hand around (rather than leaving your ring finger and pinkie dangling). The rest is a matter of personal taste. Personally I don't like DA/SA pistols (unless its a revolver). or frame mounted safeties. But plenty of people like them. __________________ You broke into the wrong Rec Room!

October 25, 2002, 08:02 PM	#30
Chugach Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2002 Location: Alaska Posts: 172	"Sticky" grips that hang on clothing. __________________ No such thing as bad weather, just bad gear... "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." - Bertrand de Jouvenet

October 25, 2002, 08:57 PM	#31
Patrick Murphy Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Posts: 96	No safeties, nothing under .380/.38, no single-action revolvers. DAO autos and DA revolvers are my favorites. __________________ Murph

October 25, 2002, 06:15 PM	#29
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	It doesn't work (obvious). It has things that are too fragile (optics). You personally can't hit with it (bad ergonomics/trigger/sights for you). If you do hit with it, it doesn't matter (too weak a caliber). You can't bring it into action quickly (excess bulk, things that snag, controls you can't reach, etc.). Side note: on a 1911, a magwell isn't necessarily a bad thing for a real weapon. You can cut the frame shorter before you fit it, so you don't increase the bulk, you can melt the edges so it doesn't snag, and the big ol' hole does make for faster reloads. It is hard to break a welded-on piece of steel. On the other hand, some of the competition magwells are just nutty... funnels the size of frisbees need not apply.

October 25, 2002, 11:16 PM	#32
Robert Foote Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1998 Posts: 623	KISS about covers it. Ed Heinneman (sp?) who designed the A-4 Skyhawk, said his goal was to simplify and add lightness. Stuff to shun: A gun that has any tendency to malfunction at any time, for any reason. Get rid of it asap. A gun that doesn't let you shoot your best. It's not great unless it's great in your hands. I have $150 guns that make me look great and pricey ones that constantly embarrass me. Safeties, dohickies, disconnectors, newfangled action locks. Murphy rules. 'Sticky' grips (well put) or grips that do not fit your hand. Even more obvious, guns that are too big for said hand. Gunshop commando crap. If the sights are big, bold, and easy to see, and the trigger is one you can live and hit with, leave the gun alone. Action jobs by Joe the Plumber. Any gun that has fewer than two wars or two decades of hard street use to its credit. Guns that qualify in my book are good basic 1911s, K frame Smiths, Ruger double action Six series guns. M870 Remington and M1A the same. __________________ RF/DVC

October 26, 2002, 08:16 AM	#33
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I hate sharp crisp edges on my guns. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 26, 2002, 11:12 AM	#34
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Bad features on a defensive handgun: Most everything other than night sights commonly added on. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

October 26, 2002, 11:46 AM	#35
marca Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Posts: 156	Access to service I will no longer buy brands that have to be sent to some distant parallel universe for factory repair work. I've had some brands that make a round trip with 1 to 2 weeks and others that have taken 6 to 8 weeks for fairly simple and minor work. The delays have always been due to poor customer service rather than complexity of work. Does little good to have a nice gun if you have to part with it for long periods of time.

October 26, 2002, 11:51 AM	#36
19114EVER Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 148	Anything less than .45 ACP in caliber. Anything not made by Colt, Kimber, Wilson, AO (new Kahr, of course), Les Baer, Ed Brown, or Springfield. Anything double stack mag, too wide for my hand. Any DA or DA/SA. Yes, I'm narrow minded.

October 26, 2002, 01:48 PM	#37
nsf003 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: South Central PA Posts: 574	I don't like having a mechanical safety on my gun. A decocker on a semi is ok. Nothing to fumble with when there is a guy with a knife charging you. I like it when i can just point my 357 and shoot. Easy. KISS is a great rule. nsf __________________ Christian, American, Heterosexual, Pro-gun Conservative. Any Questions? Molon Labe! Lets Roll!

October 26, 2002, 03:42 PM	#38
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	I agree with your first two Grizz, and would add that I would not buy a 'ported' gun for serious social work. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

October 27, 2002, 02:53 PM	#39
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	Any gun that deviates significantly from its ORIGINAL design. The 1911 originally designed by John Browning was a superb firearm. When you start adding on junk like guide rods & extended buttons & other junk, it compromises its function & reliability. Same thing w/ any other firearm. KISS... BTW, single-action revolvers can make a good defensive handgun. I know a few guys who carry them for CCW; and, after having seen them shoot, I don't think they're poorly armed. Practice is the key.... __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......

October 27, 2002, 03:38 PM	#40
Tropical Z Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Location: Atlantis Posts: 1,683	Hi-Point handguns are another brand that has a mag disconnect. __________________ FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE!!!!!!!

October 27, 2002, 05:25 PM	#41
aquapong Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Posts: 72	1. a manual safety - I will not have one on any of my "for real" handguns, but on the play guns it fine 2. must be proven to be reliable 3. must be dao or have a non slide-mounted decocker 4. basically, it must be from one of these companies: Glock, Sig, Taurus revolvers, CZ, or Ruger.

October 27, 2002, 05:31 PM	#42
New_comer Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2001 Location: Manila, Phil. Posts: 1,004	Anything that looks like it's gonna be auctioned at Sotheby's or Cristie's. You'd be inviting trouble with a piece like that... __________________ Regards, New_comer USP9F, Remington 870 "It not in the size of the thing, it's how you use it..."

October 27, 2002, 06:13 PM	#43
Gonzo_308 Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2000 Location: Sunbury, Ohio Posts: 1,367	1) Slide mounted safety. 2) Too small to use effectively 3) Too heavy to be comfortable carrying __________________ Loaded like a freight train, flyin' like an aeroplane!

October 27, 2002, 06:26 PM	#44
Oracle Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2001 Posts: 152	For defensive handguns: I don't like manual safeties (basically, if you have to do anything other than pull the trigger for the gun to go bang, then I don't like it on a defensive handgun) I like a gun that has the same trigger pull, every time, even if it has a heavy trigger pull. No DA/SA guns for me (at least, as defensive handguns). I don't like anything that can catch on clothing easily, such as a prominent external hammer, overdone beavertails, or high-riding sights that can easily catch on something. Like has been said before, the gun should feel like a used bar of soap, nothing to really catch on things. This means that I pretty much like Glocks, some DAO autos, and bobbed hammer (or hammerless) revolvers for defensive work. But, that's just my personal opinions, YMMV. __________________ "Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark." -Robert Heinlein

October 27, 2002, 09:02 PM	#45
satxman Member Join Date: August 15, 2002 Posts: 84	Personal Defense requirements in Handgun My requirements. 1. no more than 6" long. 2. light to carry, 22 ounces or so. I can get lighter gun back to target faster than heavier weapons. Less mass I guess. 3. .45 caliber, my prejudice for big and subsonic. 4. 10+1 capacity 5. DOA for consistent trigger pull, period. Light single action trigger is not for me when it comes to self defense. Shooting at paper it is totally cool, under stress just too touchy in dynamic action (running, ducking, seeking cover, changing hands, etc.) for me, that is. Could care less about "gritty" trigger and other such silliness. No trigger jobs as long as trigger works. 6. Must have manual safety as I use the safety to carry strong side thumb and have trained to sweep down on safety. Easy for anyone who walks upright and can chew gum at the same time. I know how to operate the safety, the BG may have trouble if he gets the gun unless he trained in doing so as well. 7. Must be able to control for rapid fire till lock back at 7 yards. No double taps, pure firing till lock back or until BG drops from sight picture. 8. No snags, hammers, beavertails or such. Must be striker fired. 9. I like mag disconnects for retention issues, but alas.... 10. Have shown at least 1000 rounds of dependability and that is minimum. 11. Must be able to get all three fingers of strong side hand on grip. More important for retention and control purposes than shooting purposes. I can shoot with one finger on grip. 12. Must point and fire well from retention position. Practice, it's important. 13. Should be able to remove sights and still hit COM at 7 yards, the point being, you don't need adjustable sights for personal defense. The opportunity for you to accurately "sight your target" is very remote. Do require fixed, night sights so I can find the gun easily. Getting old. 14. Must be able to handle recoil and torque one handed both strong and weak side. If you can't, keep practicing or change weapons. Very important. Whew! Thats all I need.

October 27, 2002, 09:57 PM	#46
satxman Member Join Date: August 15, 2002 Posts: 84	Bad Features Bad Features. Remember, this is a PD weapon not a target or competive shooting weapon. 1. Longer than 6" total. No need 2. Heavier than 26 ounces. I can control lighter weapons to get back on target sooner than larger heavier weapons. Must be the mass. 3. Smaller caliber than .45 (my prejudice for big and sub-sonic) 4. Less capacity than 10+1 Why would I want less? 5. Single action triggers. Much to touchy for me in dynamic action. (moving, running, ducking, rolling, changing hands) Want regular, expected 8-10 lbs pull, DAO. Don't care about "gritty triggers" and other silliness. I promise you, you will not notice "gritty" trigger when the SHTF. No trigger jobs unless trigger doesn't work. 6. No safety. Issue very Important to me. I use the safety as a thumb carry for my strong side. I have trained to sweep down which BTW anyone who walks upright and doesn't have a prehensiled tail can learn to do. Having my thumb ride the safety keeps my grip up high on the weapon. Also, if the BG gets the gun, he may have trouble operating the gun just like a lot of people on this forum would have, unless he trained otherwise. You see, I can shoot a weapon that has a safety or one that doesn't as I always sweep. If no safety, so be it. Now if you never train to disengage a safety, you will stumble snatching up another weapon that has one. Could be embarassing. 7. Short grips Need three finger room. Not so much for shooting. Can shoot with one finger, but more for control and retention. 8 Adjustable sights Should be able to shoot till lock back to COM at 7 yards without sights at all. Do get wrapped up in target shooting your PD gun. practice, fast, faster, fastest to COM. Just give me fixed with night sights as I need to see the gun on the bed stead. Getting old. Also, helps in firing from retention position in dark. 9. Hammers, beavertails etc. Must be striker fired. period. Hands and objects can be place between the hammer and the firing pin. Just like the much beloved manual decock. I guess it all depends on who has control of the weapon, huh. What a horrible thought. Bad guy at my face, my single action cocked and locked, I unlock and pull the trigger and the BG is holding/obstucting the hammer. Ouch! I still want a 1911 but not as my PD, CCW weapon. 10. Undependability Must have 1000 rounds minimum to be a PD gun for me. Any excessive or recurring problems and the gun is out of there. Something I really need. I must not only feel confident that the weapon will not let me down but I must also be able to wrap it up, control it, make it an extension of body. I must be able to fire it at retention and strike COM. I must be able to shoot it sideways, upside down, on my back, on my side, stong hand, weak hand. Must control the felt recoil, the tourque and the follow through. I always practice 75% of the time with the PD weapon so I guess I will never be a marksman. Blah, blah, blah, just the rantings of a novice.

October 27, 2002, 09:58 PM	#47
satxman Member Join Date: August 15, 2002 Posts: 84	Sorry for double post Aaaarrrh! So sorry for two separate rantings.

October 28, 2002, 01:40 PM	#48
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Sundance, I do not recall when this happened, because it happened before I moved to Utah, but a SL cop (can't recall if it was city or county) was beaten down by a crazy guy. Had his Smith taken from him. Bad guy pulled trigger repeatedly nothing happened. Bad guy looked for safety. Released mag instead. Bad guy gave up in frustration and ran away. Ayoob has a bunch of documented cases. Every once in a while he will have a bunch in an article. I cannot verify the accuracy of any of these of course, but I don't see that he has any reason to lie.

October 28, 2002, 11:17 PM	#49
boing Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1998 Location: WNC Posts: 1,072	There are a few posts from TFLers who have been saved, or had their partners saved, by mag disconnects. This includes at least one person who is not LE.

October 29, 2002, 08:46 AM	#50
Sundance Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 836	Well perhaps it has happened (the mag release save) but I just don't buy it a valid technique. And I doubt it has happened as much as some say it has. My local City, County, and State agencies all carried S&W 5906 pistols at one point. I know of no mag release saves. Learn proper weapon retention techniques and proper unarmed fighting techniques. If an unarmed suspect tries to get your weapon from you, he is now an armed suspect. If you are able to drop the mag, then you are probably able to put 2 in his chest and would be totally justified in doing so. And now, anything goes. Knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands...kill the SOB before he kills you.