Bad features for a defensive handgun - Page 3

rauchman · October 29, 2002, 11:14 AM

Now this whole thing is based on a self defense weapon. I would consider that my bedstand pistol. So, what features would I not want on my bedside pistol. For starters, a platform that I couldn't shoot well with. Would not want slide mounted safety or a safety done in typical European fashion (swing up for activating weapon)....I prefer the sweep down for Fire. A pistol that doesn't hold at least 10 rounds.....preferably more. A caliber below 9mm powerwise. A pistol that doesn't go at least 1000 rounds without a hitch. A pistol that has it's slide release placed right where I lay my right thumb.......slide never locks back. Magazine disconnect I can take or leave......prefer not to have it. Sights that I find too small.

My bedstand pistol is a HKUSP 45F. It does all the things I want it to do, with the addition of having cocked and locked capability, yet still be able to rack the slide. I do not leave a bullet in the chamber. I do leave the safety on. The gun is in a draw next to the bed. I want to be able to open draw, rack slide, and still have the safety on. If someone is coming into my home, my front door is too noisey not to wake up....a very tight fitting door. I'm on the second floor, so window entry is not very likely. Out of all the pistols I shoot, the USP ties with the Sig 226 as the gun I shoot best. Keep 2 mags at the ready besides mag in the gun. For the amount I practice (500 rounds per month combined across 3 pistols including USP) the USP allows me to shoot quick multiple hits in the torso area of a target. Yes, there are guns with better triggers and striker fired pistols and blah blah blah, but, and here is the key, none of that matters because I can shoot really well on that gun and it has all the features I'm looking for.

Penman · October 29, 2002, 01:46 PM

Correia,
IIRC, what occured with the SLC Officer was that the BG tried to shoot him with the safety engaged on the S&W. When it wouldn't fire, he puched the mag release, which dropped the mag enough to activate the mag safety, but didn't drop the magazine completely. He then put the safety in the off position, but then the mag safety prevented the gun from firing. It was a "passive" save, but it did save the right life.
When Ayoob started to collect information on these saves, he also asked for cases where someone needed to shoot their pistol when the magazine was either removed or lost. He got a lot of disparaging letters for doubting Jeff Cooper's wisdom, but never received any information on any case where someone was saved because they were able to fire their pistol without a magazine in place.
Personally, my main carry piece doesn't have a mag safety, but I would not feel disadvantaged carrying my S&W 3913 either. This thread has provided a lot of thoughtful opinions, and will provide great information to many newer shooters.

Chieftan 6 · October 29, 2002, 11:09 PM

Yea, most of the guy's that had the weapon not fire because of the safty or magazine safty are listed in the obituaries!

Most common reason for a ftf of 1911 type weapons:

FAILURE TO RELEASE SAFTY!

juliet charley · October 30, 2002, 07:08 AM

Interesting observations, but I think the key, as some have alluded, is to know your weapon and practice with it consistently--sort of the "beware of the man with one gun" thing.

I don't see safeties in any form, European push-up or Colt sweep-down, to be particularly detrimental so long as you are familiar with them, and their use is habitual. Where safeties can get you in trouble is where you "mix and match" weapons--some with safeties, some without; some push-up, sweep down; etc.

As for the magazine safety, I see it really as non-player in any real world situation. It is an "administrative" handling convenience sure--but definitely not a drawback. In terms of "getting in the way" when you need your weapon, it's just not likely. To be honest, I figure there is a far greater chance of kB! when you need the weapon than you will ever need the single round in the chamber when the magazine is out of the weapon. But again, to each his own. KNOW YOUR WEAPON--the rest will take care of itself.

jason10mm · October 30, 2002, 12:42 PM

SATXMAN, what weapon DO you use? From your requirements; a 22 oz, 10+1 .45ACP that is both striker fired and DOA, but has a thumb safety. I can't think of a single pistol matching that description, but it sounds awesome. What is it????

Personally, as long as the pistol is reliable and concealable, it is good to go, be it a Desert Eagle or a Kel-tec P-32. Just practice, practice, practice and dress accordingly. Most malfunctions I've seen come from guys who talk a lot but only shoot a little, have sloppy reloads, or bubba their guns with the dremel. Later.

Cthulhu · October 30, 2002, 04:39 PM

Jason,
I'm rather curious as well. If you fudge an ounce or so, the only DAO, striker-fired, 10+1 .45 with a sweep down safety is the Taurus PT-145. Forgiving another oz in weight, an esoteric choice could also be a Glock 30 fitted with a Cominolli safety. Hopefully SAXTMAN will let us know which weapon meets his tough standards for Personal Defense.

Brian Williams · October 30, 2002, 06:15 PM

I want to know what other guns he fires and has no problem because "I always sweep" will put on a few safeties

Give me my S&W mod 13, it's to bad S&W never made them from the factory with moon clips

Cee-Zed · October 31, 2002, 02:20 AM

I don't like kicking a guy while he's down, but...

10+1 rounds of .45 ACP weighs just over 8 ounces (with 230gr bullets). Assuming no weight for the magazine, that leaves him an 14-18 ounce .45 handgun. (His discussion seems to indicate the total mass of the loaded handgun.)

Sign me up for one of those!

popnokick · October 31, 2002, 08:46 AM

Something I haven't seen mentioned - Many DAO semiautos will permit the slide to be pushed backward when a round is chambered. Doing so on many will cause the gun to go out of battery, or disconnect the trigger.

To find this out with your autoloader - UNLOAD it. Check to ensure it is unloaded. Check again.

If necessary, cock the action by operating the slide. Point the gun in safe direction. Move the slide back 1/4 inch or so and pull the trigger. If the firing pin strikes, repeat the above moving slide back farther each time until you pull the trigger and nothing happens.

Now - someone educate me. Can this happen with a DA/SA autoloader that permits "cocked and locked" operation, or is the slide locked in place on a chambered round?

Cee-Zed · October 31, 2002, 12:51 PM

On CZs, the slide is locked when the manual safety is engaged (at least on the guns with the SA/DA system).

New_comer · October 31, 2002, 07:48 PM

Quote:

On CZs, the slide is locked when the manual safety is engaged (at least on the guns with the SA/DA system).

I like that the slide on the SA/DA USP can be racked even if the safety is engaged. Zero chance of ND during unloading, especially to those who always inadvertently violate rule#3.

Still Shopping · June 14, 2004, 08:34 PM

First on my list of not to buy is enclosed firing mechanisms. The 380s are a prime example. After wear they can discharge without warning, and it's difficult to tell if they're charged. Second is chrome, or nickel. It's a tool, not a show piece. Lets face it, most self defense situations are going to be in or near dark. Lets not tip our hand by outshining his gun. I'm not entirely opposed to some bells, or safeties, however I don't want things hanging all over it, as some have mentioned. To make the gun more friendly for my wife (total novice), I am opting for an integrated laser grip, great for people who have problems remembering to site, and even better in dim light when you can't see your sights.

Dusty Miller · June 15, 2004, 02:20 AM

One thing that absolutely does NOT sound like a really good self-defense firearm to me can be summed up in the phrase "single action revolver". But I'll tell ya, I keep hearing people say it over and over again. It don't make no sense to me.

Quartus · June 15, 2004, 06:13 AM

I have to wonder if the folks touting the SA revolver have ever run a serious combat course. Plinking on the range or out in the boonies is NOT the same thing.

Thing's NOT to have on a serious weapon?

Flashlights hanging off of it.
SA/DA trigger. Gimme one or the other for EVERY shot.
Chrome, nickel, SS, or other shiny surface. I learned this when I was a wee lad, playing cops & robbers. Got caught when the other kid peeked into the dark utility room where I was hiding. He was just about to leave when my shiny gun gave me away.
Sights that don't stay put!

BTW, those of you who insist on 100% reliabilty, please let me know when you find that universe. Meanwhile, I'll struggle along with learning to cope with something less, like it is here in THIS world.

Landric · June 15, 2004, 07:13 AM

I don't have a problem with safties, but if said weapon has a safety, I don't want it on the slide. I really don't want any controls on the slide, but I can live with a decocker only, like the G model Berettas

I really don't get why so many people don't like DA/SA operation, I don't find the switch to be a problem at all, and I think that the complaints about it are overblown, but that is my opinion, and I accept that others have different ones.

Left to my own devices, I go with a .45ACP for carry. The gun that meets my needs the best is the HK USP45 Compact, variant 3 (right hand decocker only). Slick slide, .45ACP, external hammer, no safety, DA/SA operation, and utter reliability. However, I would be happy carrying a Glock .45 or a SIG .45 also. I'm thinking about a Glock 36 for my next handgun.

I don't have a problem with the 9x19mm or the .40S&W, so long as I can pick the ammo (rather than having someone issue it to me). For the 9mm I like the 115, 124, and 127 grain JHPs at (+P+) velocities. My "car gun" is a Beretta 92D with Winchester Ranger 115 grain JHP(+P+). Again, note the slick slide. Its DAO, but has an excellent trigger and no safety.

For the .40S&W, I like the 155 and 165 grain JHPs at full velocity (no medium velocity 165 grain ammo for me). My current choice for my USP40 Compact is the Winchester Silvertip 155 grain JHP.

RonS · June 15, 2004, 06:39 PM

P38 style decocker / safety.
Itty bitty sights.
A trigger pull that is equal to or greater than the weight of an M1 Garand.(Unloaded, no sling or bayonet).
A grip that a Ransom Rest couldn't hold on to under recoil.
A reputation for unreliability, fragility or being a picky eater.
A stupid name, like Enforcer, Avenger, Mall Ninja Night Fighter etc.
UFNGR (Ugly For No Good Reason)

RonS · June 15, 2004, 06:45 PM

Close, but no cigar, off by one ounce.

Model: 145BP
Caliber: .45 ACP
Capacity: 10 +1
Barrel Length: 3-1/4"
Porting: No
Action: DAO
Finish: Blue
Grips: Checkered Polymer
Weight: 23 oz
Construction: Polymer/Steel
Frame: Medium
Front Sight: Fixed- 1 Dot
Rear Sight: Fixed- 2 Dots
Trigger Type: Smooth
Length: 6''
Width: 1.25"
Height: 5.125"
Rate of Twist: 1:16"
Grooves: 6
Safety: Manual Safety, Firing Pin Block, Trigger Block

michael t · June 16, 2004, 11:54 AM

No adjustable sights
No sticky grips
No laser or flashlight hanging on front
Not made of plastic
No FLGR
No porting

litework · June 16, 2004, 12:01 PM

Things I don’t want on a CCW gun:

I will not purchase a sub compact. The awkward grip and short barrel length offsets any perceived advantage in concealment in my opinion. When I buy a gun in a particular caliber, I tend to purchase bullets that are on the heavy end of the spectrum. Not too comfortable with short barrels in this situation.

I will purchase but will not carry a firearm that is DA/SA without being able to carry the gun cocked and locked.

I will purchase and carry but not carry IWB any Glock pistol if I cannot “see” the gun into its holster…no SOB holsters for my Glocks.

I don’t like magazine disconnects, either.

I don’t mind dull stainless steel guns. Depending on your background, a white gun might be just as hidden as a black one.

Mounted flashlights on bedside guns are okay in my book.

The gun cannot have a questionable reputation.

Almost forgot about porting...no porting!

Malamute · June 18, 2004, 03:48 PM

My .02

magazines
batteries
small calibers
guns that have to be cleaned often to work

OK, I have slightly different outlook. I live in rather rural Wyoming, so my definition of a "defensive" gun is colored by rattlesnakes, black and grizzly bears, mountain lions, rabid skunks etc, THEN bad people, in about that order. My preferences run along the lines of Single Action and Double Action revolvers. The reasons are as follows.

Reliable. For me this means cleaning about twice a year and still working ALL the time, even when carried a lot and shot a fair amount. This as well as caliber considerations leaves autos out of my plan. I like my 1911, but don't completely trust it, power or reliability wise. It's fun to shoot in "combat shoots" but I don't carry it for real. Also, I've shot game with the 45 auto and am somewhat underwhelmed by the results. Maybe I'm one of those befuddled, fuzzy headed types, but the single action revolver ALWAYS works, even when not cleaned for a year or more and carried daily. OK, so it's not the best chice for a "combat course", but I don't think a "combat course" reflects real life very well. It is an artificial course of fire, and is "scored" acording to the concept of the course designers (timers, boxes to stand in, shoot this one first, reload on the run, lots of rounds fired, etc). This is a recurring theme in the writings of several experienced shooters/combat survivors/ teachers. It's good "practice", but not reflective of real life shootings. Most "defensive" encounters are not protracted firefights, and running between cover etc. Perhaps for some LEO's but not for individuals. Reliable gun quickly and well applied, decisive hit(caliber wise and location wise), fight over.
I like the DA revolver very much, and like the greater speed of reloading and shooting over the SA, but due to a hand injury I can't shoot full power magnum loads from a DA, so the SA gets carried much more. I don't feel the slightest bit undergunned with a SA. I use the same gun for mountains and "town" defense.

Decisive caliber, 357 is considered a decent town gun in this area, but should be left at home when out in the mountains, 44 mag or 45 colt with 250 to 325 gr heavy loads is about right. Again, I use the same gun for mountains and town, so don't bother with taking a 357 out other than for fun shooting. 38 spl w/ cor-bon +P's in a 2" pocket gun is OK for times a normal gun can't be carried (the 640 gets cleaned about once or twice a year, and it ALWAYS works also).

I've carried pistols (I'm not PC, all handguns are pistols to me) pretty extensively for over 25 years, and shot a lot for more than that. I don't understand the sentiment that the Single Action revolver is worthless or somehow ineffective as a defensive gun, and then say they wish there was some gun that is 100% reliable, but they don't know of any. The SA is as close as I've ever seen to being 100% reliable. Reliability is at the top of my list, with decisive power close behind. If I'm ever assaulted by more than 5 or 6 bad guys at a time I'm sure I'll regret feeling well armed with one. If my hand was up to full magnum loads in the DA I'd pick that as my first choice. Autos just dont have the flexibility for my use. Did I mention I carry the same gun in the mountains and in town?

Hard Ball · June 18, 2004, 05:04 PM

Nothing with "Glock" stamped on the side.

V-fib · June 18, 2004, 11:57 PM

Since I carry a Revolver for CCW I wouldn’t like to have the following:
No exposed hammer
No rubber grips
No adjustable sights
No porting

Destro · June 19, 2004, 03:19 PM

Anything with an alloy frane-only polymer guns I trust are Ruger & XD.
Anything made by companies with wildly varying quality control: Lorcin, Taurus, Glock, for example.
Adjustable sights-they could screw you up when you need 'em.

shep854 · June 19, 2004, 03:47 PM

Chieftan6: Semper Fi, brother!

Regarding Mas Ayoob's articles on safties/disconnects, he has a standing request out for documented reports of LEOs who were shot because they couldn't disable their pistol's safety devices. Last I heard, he has not had a bite.

OTOH, the records are full of reports of officers killed by their own guns that didn't have some sort of separate safety to manipulate. This was primarily with revolvers.

Of course, as mentioned, a private citizen is in a far different situation, so the safety/disconnect issue is a personal preference.

W Turner · June 21, 2004, 10:47 AM

Crappy trigger, I can deal with heavy as long as its smooth

Crappy sights, functional and visible, nothing fancy

Painful to shoot, due to either recoil or design (i.e., GI hammer and safety on Gov't. Model)

Barrel length of greater 5" in semi's and 4" in revos, preferably less

.38/.380 or larger

Good availability of proven carry ammo

Must fit my hand (I have paws, as opposed to hands)

W

October 29, 2002, 01:46 PM	#52
Penman Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Posts: 242	Correia, IIRC, what occured with the SLC Officer was that the BG tried to shoot him with the safety engaged on the S&W. When it wouldn't fire, he puched the mag release, which dropped the mag enough to activate the mag safety, but didn't drop the magazine completely. He then put the safety in the off position, but then the mag safety prevented the gun from firing. It was a "passive" save, but it did save the right life. When Ayoob started to collect information on these saves, he also asked for cases where someone needed to shoot their pistol when the magazine was either removed or lost. He got a lot of disparaging letters for doubting Jeff Cooper's wisdom, but never received any information on any case where someone was saved because they were able to fire their pistol without a magazine in place. Personally, my main carry piece doesn't have a mag safety, but I would not feel disadvantaged carrying my S&W 3913 either. This thread has provided a lot of thoughtful opinions, and will provide great information to many newer shooters. __________________ "It is not down in any map, true places never are." Herman Melville, in "Moby Dick"

October 29, 2002, 11:09 PM	#53
Chieftan 6 Member Join Date: September 23, 2002 Location: The Free State of Arizona Posts: 17	Yea, most of the guy's that had the weapon not fire because of the safty or magazine safty are listed in the obituaries! Most common reason for a ftf of 1911 type weapons: FAILURE TO RELEASE SAFTY! __________________ Semper Fi ************** Stupid should hurt “To lead untrained men in to war, is to waste them.” - Confucius * “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” - Ayn Rand

October 30, 2002, 06:15 PM	#57
Brian Williams Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2001 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 1,288	I want to know what other guns he fires and has no problem because "I always sweep" will put on a few safeties Give me my S&W mod 13, it's to bad S&W never made them from the factory with moon clips __________________ Brian <><

June 14, 2004, 08:34 PM	#62
Still Shopping Junior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: West By God Virginia Posts: 1	No Glitz First on my list of not to buy is enclosed firing mechanisms. The 380s are a prime example. After wear they can discharge without warning, and it's difficult to tell if they're charged. Second is chrome, or nickel. It's a tool, not a show piece. Lets face it, most self defense situations are going to be in or near dark. Lets not tip our hand by outshining his gun. I'm not entirely opposed to some bells, or safeties, however I don't want things hanging all over it, as some have mentioned. To make the gun more friendly for my wife (total novice), I am opting for an integrated laser grip, great for people who have problems remembering to site, and even better in dim light when you can't see your sights.

June 15, 2004, 06:13 AM	#64
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	I have to wonder if the folks touting the SA revolver have ever run a serious combat course. Plinking on the range or out in the boonies is NOT the same thing. Thing's NOT to have on a serious weapon? Flashlights hanging off of it. SA/DA trigger. Gimme one or the other for EVERY shot. Chrome, nickel, SS, or other shiny surface. I learned this when I was a wee lad, playing cops & robbers. Got caught when the other kid peeked into the dark utility room where I was hiding. He was just about to leave when my shiny gun gave me away. Sights that don't stay put! BTW, those of you who insist on 100% reliabilty, please let me know when you find that universe. Meanwhile, I'll struggle along with learning to cope with something less, like it is here in THIS world. __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

October 29, 2002, 11:14 AM	#51
rauchman Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2001 Location: nj Posts: 186	Now this whole thing is based on a self defense weapon. I would consider that my bedstand pistol. So, what features would I not want on my bedside pistol. For starters, a platform that I couldn't shoot well with. Would not want slide mounted safety or a safety done in typical European fashion (swing up for activating weapon)....I prefer the sweep down for Fire. A pistol that doesn't hold at least 10 rounds.....preferably more. A caliber below 9mm powerwise. A pistol that doesn't go at least 1000 rounds without a hitch. A pistol that has it's slide release placed right where I lay my right thumb.......slide never locks back. Magazine disconnect I can take or leave......prefer not to have it. Sights that I find too small. My bedstand pistol is a HKUSP 45F. It does all the things I want it to do, with the addition of having cocked and locked capability, yet still be able to rack the slide. I do not leave a bullet in the chamber. I do leave the safety on. The gun is in a draw next to the bed. I want to be able to open draw, rack slide, and still have the safety on. If someone is coming into my home, my front door is too noisey not to wake up....a very tight fitting door. I'm on the second floor, so window entry is not very likely. Out of all the pistols I shoot, the USP ties with the Sig 226 as the gun I shoot best. Keep 2 mags at the ready besides mag in the gun. For the amount I practice (500 rounds per month combined across 3 pistols including USP) the USP allows me to shoot quick multiple hits in the torso area of a target. Yes, there are guns with better triggers and striker fired pistols and blah blah blah, but, and here is the key, none of that matters because I can shoot really well on that gun and it has all the features I'm looking for.

October 30, 2002, 07:08 AM	#54
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	Interesting observations, but I think the key, as some have alluded, is to know your weapon and practice with it consistently--sort of the "beware of the man with one gun" thing. I don't see safeties in any form, European push-up or Colt sweep-down, to be particularly detrimental so long as you are familiar with them, and their use is habitual. Where safeties can get you in trouble is where you "mix and match" weapons--some with safeties, some without; some push-up, sweep down; etc. As for the magazine safety, I see it really as non-player in any real world situation. It is an "administrative" handling convenience sure--but definitely not a drawback. In terms of "getting in the way" when you need your weapon, it's just not likely. To be honest, I figure there is a far greater chance of kB! when you need the weapon than you will ever need the single round in the chamber when the magazine is out of the weapon. But again, to each his own. KNOW YOUR WEAPON--the rest will take care of itself.

October 30, 2002, 12:42 PM	#55
jason10mm Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2001 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 230	SATXMAN, what weapon DO you use? From your requirements; a 22 oz, 10+1 .45ACP that is both striker fired and DOA, but has a thumb safety. I can't think of a single pistol matching that description, but it sounds awesome. What is it???? Personally, as long as the pistol is reliable and concealable, it is good to go, be it a Desert Eagle or a Kel-tec P-32. Just practice, practice, practice and dress accordingly. Most malfunctions I've seen come from guys who talk a lot but only shoot a little, have sloppy reloads, or bubba their guns with the dremel. Later.

October 30, 2002, 04:39 PM	#56
Cthulhu Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 132	Jason, I'm rather curious as well. If you fudge an ounce or so, the only DAO, striker-fired, 10+1 .45 with a sweep down safety is the Taurus PT-145. Forgiving another oz in weight, an esoteric choice could also be a Glock 30 fitted with a Cominolli safety. Hopefully SAXTMAN will let us know which weapon meets his tough standards for Personal Defense.

October 31, 2002, 02:20 AM	#58
Cee-Zed Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Posts: 481	I don't like kicking a guy while he's down, but... 10+1 rounds of .45 ACP weighs just over 8 ounces (with 230gr bullets). Assuming no weight for the magazine, that leaves him an 14-18 ounce .45 handgun. (His discussion seems to indicate the total mass of the loaded handgun.) Sign me up for one of those!

October 31, 2002, 08:46 AM	#59
popnokick Member Join Date: November 3, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 43	Something I haven't seen mentioned - Many DAO semiautos will permit the slide to be pushed backward when a round is chambered. Doing so on many will cause the gun to go out of battery, or disconnect the trigger. To find this out with your autoloader - UNLOAD it. Check to ensure it is unloaded. Check again. If necessary, cock the action by operating the slide. Point the gun in safe direction. Move the slide back 1/4 inch or so and pull the trigger. If the firing pin strikes, repeat the above moving slide back farther each time until you pull the trigger and nothing happens. Now - someone educate me. Can this happen with a DA/SA autoloader that permits "cocked and locked" operation, or is the slide locked in place on a chambered round?

October 31, 2002, 12:51 PM	#60
Cee-Zed Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Posts: 481	On CZs, the slide is locked when the manual safety is engaged (at least on the guns with the SA/DA system).

June 15, 2004, 02:20 AM	#63
Dusty Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 262	One thing that absolutely does NOT sound like a really good self-defense firearm to me can be summed up in the phrase "single action revolver". But I'll tell ya, I keep hearing people say it over and over again. It don't make no sense to me.

June 15, 2004, 07:13 AM	#65
Landric Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2001 Location: North Carolina and Virginia Posts: 104	I don't have a problem with safties, but if said weapon has a safety, I don't want it on the slide. I really don't want any controls on the slide, but I can live with a decocker only, like the G model Berettas I really don't get why so many people don't like DA/SA operation, I don't find the switch to be a problem at all, and I think that the complaints about it are overblown, but that is my opinion, and I accept that others have different ones. Left to my own devices, I go with a .45ACP for carry. The gun that meets my needs the best is the HK USP45 Compact, variant 3 (right hand decocker only). Slick slide, .45ACP, external hammer, no safety, DA/SA operation, and utter reliability. However, I would be happy carrying a Glock .45 or a SIG .45 also. I'm thinking about a Glock 36 for my next handgun. I don't have a problem with the 9x19mm or the .40S&W, so long as I can pick the ammo (rather than having someone issue it to me). For the 9mm I like the 115, 124, and 127 grain JHPs at (+P+) velocities. My "car gun" is a Beretta 92D with Winchester Ranger 115 grain JHP(+P+). Again, note the slick slide. Its DAO, but has an excellent trigger and no safety. For the .40S&W, I like the 155 and 165 grain JHPs at full velocity (no medium velocity 165 grain ammo for me). My current choice for my USP40 Compact is the Winchester Silvertip 155 grain JHP. __________________ "The engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them"-Felix Landric

June 15, 2004, 06:39 PM	#66
RonS Junior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 14	P38 style decocker / safety. Itty bitty sights. A trigger pull that is equal to or greater than the weight of an M1 Garand.(Unloaded, no sling or bayonet). A grip that a Ransom Rest couldn't hold on to under recoil. A reputation for unreliability, fragility or being a picky eater. A stupid name, like Enforcer, Avenger, Mall Ninja Night Fighter etc. UFNGR (Ugly For No Good Reason)

June 15, 2004, 06:45 PM	#67
RonS Junior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 14	Close, but no cigar, off by one ounce. Model: 145BP Caliber: .45 ACP Capacity: 10 +1 Barrel Length: 3-1/4" Porting: No Action: DAO Finish: Blue Grips: Checkered Polymer Weight: 23 oz Construction: Polymer/Steel Frame: Medium Front Sight: Fixed- 1 Dot Rear Sight: Fixed- 2 Dots Trigger Type: Smooth Length: 6'' Width: 1.25" Height: 5.125" Rate of Twist: 1:16" Grooves: 6 Safety: Manual Safety, Firing Pin Block, Trigger Block

June 16, 2004, 11:54 AM	#68
michael t Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Out back Ky Posts: 4,044	No adjustable sights No sticky grips No laser or flashlight hanging on front Not made of plastic No FLGR No porting __________________ Certified Armed Infidel Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic 1911,Bersa Thunder 380 http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa http://www.metroarms1911forum.com

June 16, 2004, 12:01 PM	#69
litework Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2001 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 413	Things I don’t want on a CCW gun: I will not purchase a sub compact. The awkward grip and short barrel length offsets any perceived advantage in concealment in my opinion. When I buy a gun in a particular caliber, I tend to purchase bullets that are on the heavy end of the spectrum. Not too comfortable with short barrels in this situation. I will purchase but will not carry a firearm that is DA/SA without being able to carry the gun cocked and locked. I will purchase and carry but not carry IWB any Glock pistol if I cannot “see” the gun into its holster…no SOB holsters for my Glocks. I don’t like magazine disconnects, either. I don’t mind dull stainless steel guns. Depending on your background, a white gun might be just as hidden as a black one. Mounted flashlights on bedside guns are okay in my book. The gun cannot have a questionable reputation. Almost forgot about porting...no porting!

June 18, 2004, 03:48 PM	#70
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	My .02 magazines batteries small calibers guns that have to be cleaned often to work OK, I have slightly different outlook. I live in rather rural Wyoming, so my definition of a "defensive" gun is colored by rattlesnakes, black and grizzly bears, mountain lions, rabid skunks etc, THEN bad people, in about that order. My preferences run along the lines of Single Action and Double Action revolvers. The reasons are as follows. Reliable. For me this means cleaning about twice a year and still working ALL the time, even when carried a lot and shot a fair amount. This as well as caliber considerations leaves autos out of my plan. I like my 1911, but don't completely trust it, power or reliability wise. It's fun to shoot in "combat shoots" but I don't carry it for real. Also, I've shot game with the 45 auto and am somewhat underwhelmed by the results. Maybe I'm one of those befuddled, fuzzy headed types, but the single action revolver ALWAYS works, even when not cleaned for a year or more and carried daily. OK, so it's not the best chice for a "combat course", but I don't think a "combat course" reflects real life very well. It is an artificial course of fire, and is "scored" acording to the concept of the course designers (timers, boxes to stand in, shoot this one first, reload on the run, lots of rounds fired, etc). This is a recurring theme in the writings of several experienced shooters/combat survivors/ teachers. It's good "practice", but not reflective of real life shootings. Most "defensive" encounters are not protracted firefights, and running between cover etc. Perhaps for some LEO's but not for individuals. Reliable gun quickly and well applied, decisive hit(caliber wise and location wise), fight over. I like the DA revolver very much, and like the greater speed of reloading and shooting over the SA, but due to a hand injury I can't shoot full power magnum loads from a DA, so the SA gets carried much more. I don't feel the slightest bit undergunned with a SA. I use the same gun for mountains and "town" defense. Decisive caliber, 357 is considered a decent town gun in this area, but should be left at home when out in the mountains, 44 mag or 45 colt with 250 to 325 gr heavy loads is about right. Again, I use the same gun for mountains and town, so don't bother with taking a 357 out other than for fun shooting. 38 spl w/ cor-bon +P's in a 2" pocket gun is OK for times a normal gun can't be carried (the 640 gets cleaned about once or twice a year, and it ALWAYS works also). I've carried pistols (I'm not PC, all handguns are pistols to me) pretty extensively for over 25 years, and shot a lot for more than that. I don't understand the sentiment that the Single Action revolver is worthless or somehow ineffective as a defensive gun, and then say they wish there was some gun that is 100% reliable, but they don't know of any. The SA is as close as I've ever seen to being 100% reliable. Reliability is at the top of my list, with decisive power close behind. If I'm ever assaulted by more than 5 or 6 bad guys at a time I'm sure I'll regret feeling well armed with one. If my hand was up to full magnum loads in the DA I'd pick that as my first choice. Autos just dont have the flexibility for my use. Did I mention I carry the same gun in the mountains and in town?

June 18, 2004, 05:04 PM	#71
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	Nothing with "Glock" stamped on the side. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

June 18, 2004, 11:57 PM	#72
V-fib Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 253	Since I carry a Revolver for CCW I wouldn’t like to have the following: No exposed hammer No rubber grips No adjustable sights No porting __________________ Livin in the woods...feelin mighty good.

June 19, 2004, 03:19 PM	#73
Destro Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 18	Anything with an alloy frane-only polymer guns I trust are Ruger & XD. Anything made by companies with wildly varying quality control: Lorcin, Taurus, Glock, for example. Adjustable sights-they could screw you up when you need 'em. __________________ Blaming guns for crime is like blaming cars for drunken driving. Got Jesus? Got .45 acp? Got FAL? Got Rotty? Last edited by Destro; June 19, 2004 at 03:20 PM. Reason: SP

June 19, 2004, 03:47 PM	#74
shep854 Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: Birmingham AL Posts: 632	Chieftan6: Semper Fi, brother! Regarding Mas Ayoob's articles on safties/disconnects, he has a standing request out for documented reports of LEOs who were shot because they couldn't disable their pistol's safety devices. Last I heard, he has not had a bite. OTOH, the records are full of reports of officers killed by their own guns that didn't have some sort of separate safety to manipulate. This was primarily with revolvers. Of course, as mentioned, a private citizen is in a far different situation, so the safety/disconnect issue is a personal preference. __________________ Powder smoke- The Smell of FREEDOM! I don't shoot to kill; I shoot to live. Registration? NEVER!!

June 21, 2004, 10:47 AM	#75
W Turner Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 130	Crappy trigger, I can deal with heavy as long as its smooth Crappy sights, functional and visible, nothing fancy Painful to shoot, due to either recoil or design (i.e., GI hammer and safety on Gov't. Model) Barrel length of greater 5" in semi's and 4" in revos, preferably less .38/.380 or larger Good availability of proven carry ammo Must fit my hand (I have paws, as opposed to hands) W