.380 Auto

skydiver3346 · February 22, 2008, 10:50 PM

Is the Walther model PP in .380 a good, reliable automatic pistol as compared to other .380 autos like Browning, etc. If loaded with high powered hollow points, it should be a good defense weapon, right?

MWM · February 22, 2008, 11:05 PM

I like the Walther, although it recoils in a snappy fashion and may bite the web of your hand. Neither is a deal killer, however.
I had one, actually a PPK/S that would, after some six hundred rounds, not break in and become relialble, so I traded it off and bought the Bersa. In four years it has never had any failure of any kind and is very accurate.
In the .380, there is a school of thought that advises ball ammo as opposed to hp, to maximize penetration.
MWM

dsk · February 23, 2008, 12:28 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how any caliber under .40 is universally regarded as a wimp round. A .380 is just fine for defense as long as you choose decent ammo, and in this case I'm talking about JHP's. The exception would be tiny hideout autos like the P3AT, where their stubby barrels might not yield enough velocity to ensure expansion. While a larger caliber is always preferable, there are other factors to consider when choosing a defensive sidearm. I've carried my old Colt M1908 .380 on many occasions where I was formally dressed and needed something as small and flat as possible. Even my Kahr P9 was out of the question during those times. While a .380 probably shouldn't be your primary defensive sidearm, they have their place and should be included in any battery of defense handguns.

The Tourist · February 23, 2008, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsk

A .380 is just fine for defense as long as you choose decent ammo

I agree. I do tend to use these pistols more for carrying, however.

For the home where size isn't really a factor, all of my defense pistols are .401 or over.

However, my idea of SD out in the world is not to slug it out toe-to-toe as if I was in an IPSC match. My first concern is safety and security. In that case, getting as far away from trouble as fast as you can seems prudent.

A .380 ACP pistol suits that job. It's light enough to carry, with modern hollowpoints it packs enough punch and it will cover your backside as you move to escape.

For the good guys without sworn duties, that makes about the perfect set of circumstances.

Night Watch · February 23, 2008, 02:09 AM

The straight blowback action can be a little snappy; but, yes, inside 15 yards I'd say the Walther PPK-S is an adequate pistol for self defense. I, even, prefer it to a small 357 magnum revolver. Remember, nobody says you only have to fire once! Anyway, I always carry two extra magazines with my Walther; and, at relatively close range (12-15 yards) I've never felt undergunned.

Edited: I, too, use FMJ cartridges.

IanS · February 23, 2008, 02:14 AM

Single stack magazine .380's like the PPK or SIG P232 tend to recoil a bit harsher for most people. But the advantage is its a single stack and they tend to be more compact. Double stack .380's like Browning, Beretta's, or CZ tend to recoil less (easier to shoot) but they're thicker and larger. As for reliability the P232 is reportedly more reliable than the PPK's for the single stacks but the PPK/S for example is more compact. For double stacks the Browning/Beretta's are reportedly "a bit" more reliable than the CZ's.

For self defense .380 ammo I feel more comfortable with FMJ's to ensure adequate penetration (at least 12") over JHP's that might expand but may not penetrate enough to be effective.

Bill DeShivs · February 23, 2008, 02:30 AM

The .380 has adequate penetration. Because it doesn't meet the ridiculous FBI recommendation means very little in the real world.

IanS · February 23, 2008, 02:34 AM

As I stated, its what I'm comfortable with. And I forgot to mention, I also prefer the more feed friendly profile of FMJ's in my .380 auto. .380 autos in MY experience (CZ83, PPK's, SIG P232's, Beretta 84, Bersa) seem not to be as reliable as most 9mm, .40, .45 service pistols. So I feel more comfortable with a more feed friendly profile in .380 caliber. YMMV.

blume357 · February 23, 2008, 07:36 AM

If I was going to get another I would for sure go with the newer S&W made ones with the extended protector over the back grip. My Wather will bite you for sure...

Before you dropped the money on the above recomended Wather I would make one more suggestion... hold and if at all possible shoot a Sig 232.... the Sig is a little bit larger but is oh so much better.

Kreyzhorse · February 23, 2008, 07:47 AM

Overall I believe the .380 is the minimum that one should carry for self defense and with JHP it should do a decent job as a stopper.

I do believe in packing the biggest round you can however, while admitting that there is a trade off between caliber and concealability. I believe that there are 9mm's out there that are approaching the size of the .380 you are looking at so that might be another option to consider.

DrLaw · February 23, 2008, 08:21 AM

The Mauser HSc is a nice .380, too. Like the PPK, it will bite your hand if you let it. But I still like it as a fine, accurate weapon. I got a 3-shot 3/8th inch group from one I had one day. Really pleased with that performance, and any type of bullet went through it, FMJ or HP, didn't matter. Even that snubby 88 grain HP from Speer would cycle, once I figured out how far to load it into the case.

The Doc is out now.

Moe Howard · February 23, 2008, 10:37 AM

The .380 is a plenty good caliber for CCW. I carry a Sig p229 as much as I can get by with, but here in Texas in the summer, and your outside a lot, sweat and your carry gun can start to drag your pants down. On those really hot days or when I will be walking all day like on the river in San Antonio, I carry my Beretta 84. When I got that gun I had Trijicon Night Sights put on it and in, only God knows how many rounds, that gun has never failed,,,,,,,,ever. It is accurate reliable, light weight, and much softer on the shooting hand than most .380s. I have also had a Walther PPK/S and it is a great small carry gun but not very much fun at the range. The Walther I had was very reliable but I have large hands and I often got the famous Walther bite.

RogerTPA · February 23, 2008, 10:46 AM

The 380 is a good round, but its all about shot placement. Most folks don't realize that it is a 9mm cartridge:

.380 aka 9mm kurtz, 9mm short, 9x17mm
9mm Makarov aka 9x18mm (same effectiveness as a .38 spl)
9mm Parabellum aka 9x19mm

The only difference is 1mm in case capacity.

xrocket · February 23, 2008, 11:17 AM

I CC a Sig 239 in 357sig and for light wear my Seecamp 32. I do have a Seecamp .380 which will come in June and that will be my new lightweight carry.

On the other hand, my wife does not particularly like the Seecamp and wanted something slightly larger with a better handhold. A couple of weeks ago I bought her a new lightweight all blue Sig 232 with houge grips and she loves it! The rubber grips with finger grooves really helps with the control and does soften the felt recoil a bit although she is not really recoil sensitive. It's her pistol now and she won't give it up. It easily fits in her walking pack and purse and at 18oz is a good in-between size and weight.

Myself, I really like the .380 round and personally believe with the right training and mindset for a pure close in life threatening defensive encounter it will do it's job. Is it a target range gun? That depends on your own personal perspective. Last weekend for fun I constantly put all eight rounds into a ten inch by twenty four inch COM target at fifteen yards. Ten yards was all too easy and five yards .... well, you get my point.

When you find the right firearm for your defined personal needs, you just know it's right. BTW, I was able to buy it from Bachman Guns & Pawn in Dallas for $489. plus tax which was the best price I could find anywhere including the Internet.

Good luck on your quest and good shooting all.

Pilot · February 23, 2008, 11:24 AM

I often carry a Beretta M85FS. I guess its considered a "full size" .380 these days but its a pretty light and slim package for 9 rounds of .380. I like it a lot.

tshadow6 · February 23, 2008, 11:28 AM

A Tampa, FL firefiighter used a .380 to kill a criminal with one round. Don't discount the .380 as being too weak.

Majic · February 23, 2008, 11:32 AM

While the Walther is a very good pistol it does have the tendency to bite if your grip gets up to high and they have rather heavy trigger pulls. Due to it's design not much can be done to lighten the pull. Barring these issues the pistol is a well proven design that has been copied many times over the years.

Night Watch · February 23, 2008, 11:39 AM

I don't know! I think this PPK-S, 'hammer bite' thing is being overstated. In 30 + years of ownership (and several thousand fired rounds) I've only been bitten twice that I can recall - Both times when I wasn't paying attention!

In all this time I have never - not even once - had my Walther jam or fail to fire. During this time the recoil spring has been changed twice; and, I'm presently running it with a Wolff recoil spring.

If you want a valid complaint: The (first) double action trigger pull is horrendous!

PS: My Walther is one of the old German-made pistols.

NGIB · February 23, 2008, 11:47 AM

I have a Sig P232 in .380 and it is certainly one of my go to guns. It's extremely accurate, easy to shoot and very slim and easy to conceal. I keep my SD mag loaded with alternating JHP and FMJ so I figure I have adequate stopping power. Besides all the technical and mechanical reasons it's a good gun, I think it's one of the best looking guns I own and it feels great in my hand. I have a hard time choosing between this and my Kahr E9 as my primary carry, and it's now being challenged by my Kahr PM40.

I trade a lot of guns, I'll have this Sig for the duration (unless my wife sees it then it's history)...

9mm1033 · February 23, 2008, 12:04 PM

Too bad you couldn't ask all those buried 6 feet under and shot dead with a .380 (or .22 for that matter) round if it is a sufficient defensive caliber.

Agios · February 23, 2008, 12:06 PM

Because it's my primary CCW, I had my PPK worked on by a qualified gunsmith who did a ramp and trigger job. That first pull is no longer an issue.

torpeau · February 23, 2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

A .380 is just fine for defense as long as you choose decent ammo, and in this case I'm talking about JHP's.

What about PowRBall?

flusher · February 23, 2008, 02:19 PM

1967 non import marked German PPK 380

guypowell · February 23, 2008, 03:33 PM

I have a Bersa 380, and in the 3,000 or so rounds that I've put though it, it has never failed. That said, I had a friend "leave" his Walter PPK/S with me while on an extended vacation and I managed to put 1,000 rounds through it before he returned. Absolutely fell in love with that pistol to the point that I've got to get one myself.
The SIG P232 is also a wonderful 380 and a bit cheaper than a Walther.

ElectricHellfire · February 23, 2008, 04:29 PM

I also used to carry the Bersa 380. Loved its size and ease of shooting. I always felt it had almost nill recoil. Like shooting a .22 really. I only stopped carrying it because I moved up in caliber. Still carry it sometimes in the summer.

February 22, 2008, 10:50 PM	#1
skydiver3346 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,222	.380 Auto Is the Walther model PP in .380 a good, reliable automatic pistol as compared to other .380 autos like Browning, etc. If loaded with high powered hollow points, it should be a good defense weapon, right?

February 23, 2008, 02:09 AM	#5
Night Watch Registration in progress Join Date: June 30, 2005 Posts: 369	The straight blowback action can be a little snappy; but, yes, inside 15 yards I'd say the Walther PPK-S is an adequate pistol for self defense. I, even, prefer it to a small 357 magnum revolver. Remember, nobody says you only have to fire once! Anyway, I always carry two extra magazines with my Walther; and, at relatively close range (12-15 yards) I've never felt undergunned. Edited: I, too, use FMJ cartridges. __________________ 'Things go wrong. The odds catch up. Probability is like gravity; and, you cannot negotiate with gravity. One other thing: God always has the last laugh. You need to remember that!' Last edited by Night Watch; February 23, 2008 at 03:25 AM.

February 23, 2008, 02:14 AM	#6
IanS Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,632	Single stack magazine .380's like the PPK or SIG P232 tend to recoil a bit harsher for most people. But the advantage is its a single stack and they tend to be more compact. Double stack .380's like Browning, Beretta's, or CZ tend to recoil less (easier to shoot) but they're thicker and larger. As for reliability the P232 is reportedly more reliable than the PPK's for the single stacks but the PPK/S for example is more compact. For double stacks the Browning/Beretta's are reportedly "a bit" more reliable than the CZ's. For self defense .380 ammo I feel more comfortable with FMJ's to ensure adequate penetration (at least 12") over JHP's that might expand but may not penetrate enough to be effective. __________________ Owning a certain handgun isn't a Lifestyle Choice nor is it a Personal Statement. It either works for you or it doesn't. The best article about the 1911 on the internet: http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html

February 23, 2008, 02:30 AM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,990	The .380 has adequate penetration. Because it doesn't meet the ridiculous FBI recommendation means very little in the real world. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

February 23, 2008, 02:34 AM	#8
IanS Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,632	As I stated, its what I'm comfortable with. And I forgot to mention, I also prefer the more feed friendly profile of FMJ's in my .380 auto. .380 autos in MY experience (CZ83, PPK's, SIG P232's, Beretta 84, Bersa) seem not to be as reliable as most 9mm, .40, .45 service pistols. So I feel more comfortable with a more feed friendly profile in .380 caliber. YMMV. __________________ Owning a certain handgun isn't a Lifestyle Choice nor is it a Personal Statement. It either works for you or it doesn't. The best article about the 1911 on the internet: http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html Last edited by IanS; February 23, 2008 at 04:17 AM.

February 23, 2008, 12:28 AM	#3
dsk Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2001 Posts: 1,603	It never ceases to amaze me how any caliber under .40 is universally regarded as a wimp round. A .380 is just fine for defense as long as you choose decent ammo, and in this case I'm talking about JHP's. The exception would be tiny hideout autos like the P3AT, where their stubby barrels might not yield enough velocity to ensure expansion. While a larger caliber is always preferable, there are other factors to consider when choosing a defensive sidearm. I've carried my old Colt M1908 .380 on many occasions where I was formally dressed and needed something as small and flat as possible. Even my Kahr P9 was out of the question during those times. While a .380 probably shouldn't be your primary defensive sidearm, they have their place and should be included in any battery of defense handguns.

February 23, 2008, 07:36 AM	#9
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	The Walther PPk is a tried and true compact pistol... If I was going to get another I would for sure go with the newer S&W made ones with the extended protector over the back grip. My Wather will bite you for sure... Before you dropped the money on the above recomended Wather I would make one more suggestion... hold and if at all possible shoot a Sig 232.... the Sig is a little bit larger but is oh so much better.

February 23, 2008, 07:47 AM	#10
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Overall I believe the .380 is the minimum that one should carry for self defense and with JHP it should do a decent job as a stopper. I do believe in packing the biggest round you can however, while admitting that there is a trade off between caliber and concealability. I believe that there are 9mm's out there that are approaching the size of the .380 you are looking at so that might be another option to consider. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

February 23, 2008, 08:21 AM	#11
DrLaw Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Wild Western Illinois Posts: 559	Mauser HSc The Mauser HSc is a nice .380, too. Like the PPK, it will bite your hand if you let it. But I still like it as a fine, accurate weapon. I got a 3-shot 3/8th inch group from one I had one day. Really pleased with that performance, and any type of bullet went through it, FMJ or HP, didn't matter. Even that snubby 88 grain HP from Speer would cycle, once I figured out how far to load it into the case. The Doc is out now.

February 23, 2008, 10:37 AM	#12
Moe Howard Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: North Texas Posts: 690	The .380 is a plenty good caliber for CCW. I carry a Sig p229 as much as I can get by with, but here in Texas in the summer, and your outside a lot, sweat and your carry gun can start to drag your pants down. On those really hot days or when I will be walking all day like on the river in San Antonio, I carry my Beretta 84. When I got that gun I had Trijicon Night Sights put on it and in, only God knows how many rounds, that gun has never failed,,,,,,,,ever. It is accurate reliable, light weight, and much softer on the shooting hand than most .380s. I have also had a Walther PPK/S and it is a great small carry gun but not very much fun at the range. The Walther I had was very reliable but I have large hands and I often got the famous Walther bite.

February 23, 2008, 10:46 AM	#13
RogerTPA Junior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: West Central FL Posts: 12	The 380 is a good round, but its all about shot placement. Most folks don't realize that it is a 9mm cartridge: .380 aka 9mm kurtz, 9mm short, 9x17mm 9mm Makarov aka 9x18mm (same effectiveness as a .38 spl) 9mm Parabellum aka 9x19mm The only difference is 1mm in case capacity.

February 23, 2008, 11:17 AM	#14
xrocket Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Posts: 549	I CC a Sig 239 in 357sig and for light wear my Seecamp 32. I do have a Seecamp .380 which will come in June and that will be my new lightweight carry. On the other hand, my wife does not particularly like the Seecamp and wanted something slightly larger with a better handhold. A couple of weeks ago I bought her a new lightweight all blue Sig 232 with houge grips and she loves it! The rubber grips with finger grooves really helps with the control and does soften the felt recoil a bit although she is not really recoil sensitive. It's her pistol now and she won't give it up. It easily fits in her walking pack and purse and at 18oz is a good in-between size and weight. Myself, I really like the .380 round and personally believe with the right training and mindset for a pure close in life threatening defensive encounter it will do it's job. Is it a target range gun? That depends on your own personal perspective. Last weekend for fun I constantly put all eight rounds into a ten inch by twenty four inch COM target at fifteen yards. Ten yards was all too easy and five yards .... well, you get my point. When you find the right firearm for your defined personal needs, you just know it's right. BTW, I was able to buy it from Bachman Guns & Pawn in Dallas for $489. plus tax which was the best price I could find anywhere including the Internet. Good luck on your quest and good shooting all. __________________ If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. My stand begins with "WE THE PEOPLE" ...

February 23, 2008, 11:24 AM	#15
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	I often carry a Beretta M85FS. I guess its considered a "full size" .380 these days but its a pretty light and slim package for 9 rounds of .380. I like it a lot. __________________ Pilot

February 23, 2008, 11:28 AM	#16
tshadow6 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 619	.380 A Tampa, FL firefiighter used a .380 to kill a criminal with one round. Don't discount the .380 as being too weak.

February 23, 2008, 11:32 AM	#17
Majic Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3,888	While the Walther is a very good pistol it does have the tendency to bite if your grip gets up to high and they have rather heavy trigger pulls. Due to it's design not much can be done to lighten the pull. Barring these issues the pistol is a well proven design that has been copied many times over the years.

February 23, 2008, 11:39 AM	#18
Night Watch Registration in progress Join Date: June 30, 2005 Posts: 369	I don't know! I think this PPK-S, 'hammer bite' thing is being overstated. In 30 + years of ownership (and several thousand fired rounds) I've only been bitten twice that I can recall - Both times when I wasn't paying attention! In all this time I have never - not even once - had my Walther jam or fail to fire. During this time the recoil spring has been changed twice; and, I'm presently running it with a Wolff recoil spring. If you want a valid complaint: The (first) double action trigger pull is horrendous! PS: My Walther is one of the old German-made pistols. __________________ 'Things go wrong. The odds catch up. Probability is like gravity; and, you cannot negotiate with gravity. One other thing: God always has the last laugh. You need to remember that!'

February 23, 2008, 11:47 AM	#19
NGIB Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Location: Ft Stewart, GA Posts: 932	I have a Sig P232 in .380 and it is certainly one of my go to guns. It's extremely accurate, easy to shoot and very slim and easy to conceal. I keep my SD mag loaded with alternating JHP and FMJ so I figure I have adequate stopping power. Besides all the technical and mechanical reasons it's a good gun, I think it's one of the best looking guns I own and it feels great in my hand. I have a hard time choosing between this and my Kahr E9 as my primary carry, and it's now being challenged by my Kahr PM40. I trade a lot of guns, I'll have this Sig for the duration (unless my wife sees it then it's history)... __________________ Proud to be a veteran. (USAF Retired, Army Civilian) I'm old, grumpy, and jaded - still vertical though...

February 23, 2008, 12:04 PM	#20
9mm1033 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2005 Location: A big city with far too many cars and people. Posts: 932	Too bad you couldn't ask all those buried 6 feet under and shot dead with a .380 (or .22 for that matter) round if it is a sufficient defensive caliber. __________________ No one reads or cares what is written in ones signature box. So I'm not writing anything worth reading or remembering.

February 23, 2008, 12:06 PM	#21
Agios Member Join Date: April 12, 2007 Posts: 34	Because it's my primary CCW, I had my PPK worked on by a qualified gunsmith who did a ramp and trigger job. That first pull is no longer an issue.

February 23, 2008, 02:19 PM	#23
flusher Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 219	1967 non import marked German PPK 380

February 23, 2008, 03:33 PM	#24
guypowell Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2008 Location: Wood County, TX Posts: 195	I have a Bersa 380, and in the 3,000 or so rounds that I've put though it, it has never failed. That said, I had a friend "leave" his Walter PPK/S with me while on an extended vacation and I managed to put 1,000 rounds through it before he returned. Absolutely fell in love with that pistol to the point that I've got to get one myself. The SIG P232 is also a wonderful 380 and a bit cheaper than a Walther.

February 23, 2008, 04:29 PM	#25
ElectricHellfire Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,271	I also used to carry the Bersa 380. Loved its size and ease of shooting. I always felt it had almost nill recoil. Like shooting a .22 really. I only stopped carrying it because I moved up in caliber. Still carry it sometimes in the summer.