40S&W…Have you seen the deals?

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by jmr40

It doesn't cost that much to just buy a 9mm barrel to convert a 40 to 9mm. With Glocks you can even use the same magazines. That lets you practice on the cheap and if you have more confidence in 40 caliber can use the same gun with a 1 minute barrel swap

The mags are different. .40 s&w mag is good for .357 sig, but it doesn't work well for 9mm. Everything is the same except the follower.

I bought my first pistol in 1997. It was a Beretta 92F in 9mm. I wanted the same thing our military had. I was laughed at. It is a pea shooter, same as the .223 in M16. A real man shot .45acp no less, or at the least the .40 cal. Now the table has turned. To me they are all good if the price is right.

BTW it was the beginning of buying guns on Internet. eBay used to sell guns if you can believe that. I bought the Beretta from an outfit in Oregon. Before I placed the order I checked with the gun counter of a major sporting store in town. They were willing to do the transfer. But after I placed the order they changed mind, stating that it was undercutting their sales. It was quite a doing to find an FFL who was willing to do the transfer. Those were the days.

-TL

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[Mike Irwin]

About 10 years ago I bought a Smith & Wesson 411 in .40. I wasn't looking for a .40 at the time, but for $300 OTD for what was almost a new gun (showed very little evidence of having been shot) I couldn't pass it up.

Friend of mine gave me a bunch of police surplus .40 HP ammo (Winchester and Hornady).

It's now my nightstand gun.

[Miami_JBT]

I've had .40 S&W since the late 1990s. Never stopped carrying it, shooting it, and buy it. I have a pile of .40 S&W chambered guns and ammo-cans filled to the brim with .40 S&W ammunition.

[Miami_JBT]

Originally Posted by tangolima

The mags are different. .40 s&w mag is good for .357 sig, but it doesn't work well for 9mm. Everything is the same except the follower.

I bought my first pistol in 1997. It was a Beretta 92F in 9mm. I wanted the same thing our military had. I was laughed at. It is a pea shooter, same as the .223 in M16. A real man shot .45acp no less, or at the least the .40 cal. Now the table has turned. To me they are all good if the price is right.

BTW it was the beginning of buying guns on Internet. eBay used to sell guns if you can believe that. I bought the Beretta from an outfit in Oregon. Before I placed the order I checked with the gun counter of a major sporting store in town. They were willing to do the transfer. But after I placed the order they changed mind, stating that it was undercutting their sales. It was quite a doing to find an FFL who was willing to do the transfer. Those were the days.

-TL

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I remember when you can buy used guns on Ebay..... man that was fantastic. I also remember the era well when people said AR-15s were nothing but glorified poodle shooters. If you want to survive the coming Y2K collapse and be able to fight off the "Klinton" FEMA Army with Black Helicopters and the Chinese/UN Invasion Force. You needed .45 ACP and .308 Winchester.

I also remember how people said .40 S&W was short and weak and broke wrists and guns at the same time.

[wild cat mccane]

Truth be told though, a cheap 40 gun now will probably, more than likely, be sold cheaply later.

It's the ammo right now that is the head liner where material costs should be much greater and production is significantly dwarfed by 9mm. And yet, it's a good time in 40 ammo.

The CZ 40, there aren't many and it will always be the case that 40 in "race" guns are about making Major.

The TS2 40 blue is currently 200 less than the TS2 9mm Blue. But the new TS2 Orange is the exact same 9/40.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Miami_JBT

I remember when you can buy used guns on Ebay..... man that was fantastic. I also remember the era well when people said AR-15s were nothing but glorified poodle shooters. If you want to survive the coming Y2K collapse and be able to fight off the "Klinton" FEMA Army with Black Helicopters and the Chinese/UN Invasion Force. You needed .45 ACP and .308 Winchester.



I also remember how people said .40 S&W was short and weak and broke wrists and guns at the same time.

Now I am older. I start shaking my head when I see everyone put muzzle brake on .223, or even .22rf, guns. Not only the table, but the whole world, has turned. What a bunch of...

-TL

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[jar]

Originally Posted by Miami_JBT

I remember when you can buy used guns on Ebay..... man that was fantastic. I also remember the era well when people said AR-15s were nothing but glorified poodle shooters. If you want to survive the coming Y2K collapse and be able to fight off the "Klinton" FEMA Army with Black Helicopters and the Chinese/UN Invasion Force. You needed .45 ACP and .308 Winchester.

I also remember how people said .40 S&W was short and weak and broke wrists and guns at the same time.

I remember when I bought guns out of the back pages of magazines or from the Sears/Wards/Penny catalog and they were mailed to my house. And bought ammo at the gas station or drug store. That was long before eBay was even a dream.

[Pumpkin]

Originally Posted by jar

I remember when I bought guns out of the back pages of magazines or from the Sears/Wards/Penny catalog and they were mailed to my house. And bought ammo at the gas station or drug store. That was long before eBay was even a dream.

When I was a kid (60’s), I remember looking through Sears, JC Penny, Monkey Wards catalogs and trying to decide what rifle I would need to have in my log cabin. Always came down to either a Marlin 44mag or 45-70.
Good stuff!

[Miami_JBT]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

When I was a kid (60’s), I remember looking through Sears, JC Penny, Monkey Wards catalogs and trying to decide what rifle I would need to have in my log cabin. Always came down to either a Marlin 44mag or 45-70.
Good stuff!

The Marlin 1895 in .45-70 was introduced in 1972. The current production .44 Magnum chambered 1894 was introduced in 1969.

[TruthTellers]

I was big into .40 when I started 10 yrs ago, but that interest waned once I got into reloading and found out 10mm Glocks could shoot .40 w/o issue. I won't sell those I have now, but I'm not really into getting anymore. The only ones that I have thought about getting would be the Beretta Px4 for the recoil reducing action and a Kahr MK40 as a small single stack steel frame .40 isn't something I currently have.

Highly unlikely those will ever be sold for a low price just cuz they're in 40.

The most repeated this I see why people say not to buy the cheap .40s is the ammo is significantly more. Well, one, I have seen Aluminum 40 going for $16 a box and the defensive ammo is going to be the same price as 9. Further, if you don't shoot thousands of rounds a year, it's not burning a hole in your pocket.

That's what 5.7 is for.

[radom]

Me I dont get the .40 hate. A 180 grain .401 slug worked in the colt SA and the win 76 just fine so why does the same in a self loader suck now?

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by radom

Me I dont get the .40 hate. A 180 grain .401 slug worked in the colt SA and the win 76 just fine so why does the same in a self loader suck now?

I don't think it's hate for the caliber itself as it is effective for defense, but more to do with ammo cost compared to 9mm. Since 9mm is a decent caliber itself and costs less and holds more rounds most people are going to figure that whatever extra the .40 has over the 9mm isn't worth it to them.

Just because a caliber has lost popularity doesn't mean it's going to lose all demand, what I believe is going to happen is as 10mm gains in popularity in the future and people come to understand .40 is able to be shot in them and is generally more commonly found, .40 will be the practice ammo of choice while the defense ammo carried will be in 10mm.

[Pumpkin]

40S&W fires in a 10mm chamber? The extractor controls the headspace?
Doesn’t sound too swift to me.
I could see this working in a 10mm revolver using moon clips.

[rc]

40 still has an advantage over 10mm in 9mm sized guns. It is the Goldilocks caliber. Not too much kick and power like 10 mm and with better stopping power than either 9mm or 45. Reasonably big magazine capacity and able to fit in compact guns that are easier to carry. In truth 40 beats up small framed guns like Kahrs and is only marginally more effective than 9 but costs a lot more for training. The agencies that are rushing back to 9 are doing so because of current ammo costs with the argument it is as good as the 40 and holds more round but we all know there are trade offs for the smaller 9 that even with the 147 grain loads is just not putting out the juice of the 180 grain 40 and no way a 115 or 124grain 9, has the same stopping power as a full house 155 grain or 165 grain 40 when you look at energy dump. "As good as 40" is relative. I'm sure there was a difference in proficiency scores for small officers too who had never shot a gun before the academy just like the FBI found when downloading the 10mm.

[Forte S+W]

The crazy deals on .40 S&W are what got me into the cartridge in the first place and it has since become my favorite.

I got my first way back in 2019 when I was pretty much broke but in need of a new carry gun that was powerful enough to work in a pinch against hogs. I found a Smith & Wesson Sigma SW40VE in a gunshop I frequented at the time LNiB for $199, so I put it on layaway, payed it off within a couple weeks once I got paid, then began carrying it. Up until then I had more or less completely ignored .40 S&W, viewing is as a goofy intermediate cartridge with more cons than pros, but once I had actually shot one I found that I really enjoyed it.

Now I own a total of four pistols chambered in .40 S&W, the SW40VE, a 4006TSW, Performance Center M&P40 Shield, and an M&P40c. All of which cost me less than $400, with the most recent addition being a police trade-in M&P40c with Trijicon night sights, 3 magazines, and a hard case for $269.

In many ways, I feel like the FBI dropping .40 S&W worked wonders for its popularity on the civilian market because the high availability and low prices made them extremely attractive, then once they were actually in peoples hands folks quickly discovered that a lot of the supposed drawbacks of the cartridge such as snappy recoil, slow follow up shots, poor accuracy, and especially the catastrophic failures were grossly exaggerated.

I honestly think that eventually, — once the deals have dried up — the cartridge will make a comeback in a similar fashion to 10mm due to demand generated by all the folks who sing its praises, leaving newcomers to want to experience the mighty cartridge which was too hot for the FBI to handle.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

In many ways, I feel like the FBI dropping .40 S&W worked wonders for its popularity on the civilian market because the high availability and low prices made them extremely attractive, then once they were actually in peoples hands folks quickly discovered that a lot of the supposed drawbacks of the cartridge such as snappy recoil, slow follow up shots, poor accuracy, and especially the catastrophic failures were grossly exaggerated.

I don’t dislike the 40SW, but I don’t think the FBI dropping it is working wonders for the cartridge. Locally to me sales of new 40SW pistols have fallen off a cliff and if you are trying to sell a used pistol in 40SW some shops don’t even want to bother with it, or require you to slash the price so drastically that you might as well keep it. Private sales just seem to sit.

I think it’s a good time like you said if you’re willing to take a chance on a new cartridge or if you’re already a fan of the cartridge. But what I see in gun stores and at ranges suggests 40SW is become more niche currently. I think it will be interesting to see the popularity of this cartridge over time, and maybe it will have a rebirth like 10mm.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

40S&W fires in a 10mm chamber? The extractor controls the headspace?
Doesn’t sound too swift to me.
I could see this working in a 10mm revolver using moon clips.

Seen and read quite a bit of people doing it and not having issues and my own personal experience doing it has reflected as such. Now, I wouldn't carry .40 in a 10mm pistol, but for practice? Sure, nothing seems to be hurt by it. At worst it would be an extractor after thousands of rds and those are cheap to replace.

[wild cat mccane]

There isn't a reason you can't shoot a 40 in the S&W 610 or the GP100 10mm. Carbon ring in cylinder would be no different than 38/357 in a 357.

But as fun as those are, a 10mm revolver suffer the same problem as happening in the 40 auto autos. A 357 in the frame of the 610 holds 8 357 and the 610 holds 6. A GP100 10mm holds 6. You really have to want to deal with moon clips and have a pretty darn good mental justification that 10mm is better than 38/357 ownership.

I'm not saying people don't love their 610/GP100 10mm...But 40 isn't going to survive because people can shoot 40. The 10mm revolver is already a niche gun given the 357 option.

Conversion barrels or expertise to feel confident to shoot 40 in a Glock 20 for example, that isn't going to save 40 either.

I imagine it exist for ever, but the common person won't know the true percentage decline.

What we do know is Federal exclusively was making 9mm for like 2 years during the pandemic. That is just another data point on where 40 stands. I would imagine there is some massive Federal stock reduction going on vs what we believe is even reasonably similar 40 new production going on.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

There isn't a reason you can't shoot a 40 in the S&W 610 or the GP100 10mm. Carbon ring in cylinder would be no different than 38/357 in a 357.

But as fun as those are, a 10mm revolver suffer the same problem as happening in the 40 auto autos. A 357 in the frame of the 610 holds 8 357 and the 610 holds 6. A GP100 10mm holds 6. You really have to want to deal with moon clips and have a pretty darn good mental justification that 10mm is better than 38/357 ownership.

I'm not saying people don't love their 610/GP100 10mm...But 40 isn't going to survive because people can shoot 40. The 10mm revolver is already a niche gun given the 357 option.

Conversion barrels or expertise to feel confident to shoot 40 in a Glock 20 for example, that isn't going to save 40 either.

I imagine it exist for ever, but the common person won't know the true percentage decline.

What we do know is Federal exclusively was making 9mm for like 2 years during the pandemic. That is just another data point on where 40 stands. I would imagine there is some massive Federal stock reduction going on vs what we believe is even reasonably similar 40 new production going on.

I know the market for 10mm is not big, but it is growing and the reason for that is 10mm is quite powerful for an auto and the power it has it's more practical for more people than something like .50 AE. The drawback to 10mm is the availability of ammo at local stores, they don't stock enough of it to be able to get bulk discount pricing and the price isn't as low compared to .40, which is more popular.

The 9mm is and always will be the most popular caliber, because of that demand will always be the highest and companies like Federal will load for it for years during the typical 4 year panics. That doesn't mean .40 or any other caliber is dead.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I don’t dislike the 40SW, but I don’t think the FBI dropping it is working wonders for the cartridge. Locally to me sales of new 40SW pistols have fallen off a cliff and if you are trying to sell a used pistol in 40SW some shops don’t even want to bother with it, or require you to slash the price so drastically that you might as well keep it. Private sales just seem to sit.

I think it’s a good time like you said if you’re willing to take a chance on a new cartridge or if you’re already a fan of the cartridge. But what I see in gun stores and at ranges suggests 40SW is become more niche currently. I think it will be interesting to see the popularity of this cartridge over time, and maybe it will have a rebirth like 10mm.

Unless there's some sort of ban on military calibers and 9mm gets swept up in that (it could happen if WW3 gets started and the military needs as much 9mm as it can get) I don't see .40 ever having a 10mm like resurgence because it doesn't offer what 10mm does, which is 650 ft/lbs of energy. My belief is due to .40 being usable in many 10mm pistols the ammo will not see the demand drop off.

Factory new .40 pistols may indeed cause models to be discontinued by manufacturers, but with how many have been made over the past 30+ years there's going to be millions of .40's out there that need to be fed.

[wild cat mccane]

Yep, exactly my thought (minus consumable goods during WW3 ) too.

It will be around always. Market decline from here on out but no disappear. I think anything arguing otherwise is why forums exist, to have the banter Not one of can know anything other than ammoseek, gun.deals, Federal public statements, and shop experiences. But there really isn't points of solid data being talked about in "is 40 popular or not" convos.

There won't be a resurgence, if ever, if HST and Gold Dot aren't eclipsed by a newer design that massively benefits from any of the 40 exclusive features. Hard to imagine anything new would need 40 features, more likely Hyrdoshock Deep comes to 30SC, 30SC goes to an LCP frame, and that becomes something.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Kestrel4k

"Buy when everybody else is selling, and sell when everybody else is buying"
- Warren Buffett

That really depends on why they are selling....

[rc]

I always felt since buying my first 40 S&W, a Browning Hi Power in the mid 90s that the 155gr truncated bullets would have been the cats meow for military adoption. The 9mm as we know is notorious in FMJ round nose variety for being less than stellar in combat. Not sure how much better the newer truncated 9mm ammo is but I'm sure the HP round the army adopted punches far more efficient holes than the FMJ version to stop a fight but I bet a full house 155gr truncated FMJ in 40 cal would be very persuasive also.

[tangolima]

The military probably won't choose HP bullets.

-TL

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[44 AMP]

I won't speculate on reasons why, but the guy who runs the local "tactical" gunshop says 60 (sixty!!) 9mms go out his door for every .40 he sells.

That might be a reason to offer good deals, to (hopefully) move .40s that are otherwise just sitting on the shelves....