What Isn"t This Illegal?! - Page 3

gfen · May 21, 2007, 03:44 AM

Silvanius stated earlier:

Quote:

If you convert these semi autos, like a 10/22, can you somehow switch between semi and full auto or do you pull the trigger once and you unload the whole magazine?

No one ever answered that, and I'm curious myself. If someone does a kitchen table butcher job on a firearm, does it stop when you let off the trigger, or when it fails to feed/empties the mag?

Art Eatman · May 21, 2007, 07:47 AM

gfen, I'd imagine that a home-conversion would probably quit when the trigger is released. But I wouldn't count on it. Depends on who's doing the meddling.

A skilled machinist could make a select-fire trigger group. A kitchen table job with a file or Dremel tool? Good luck!

Even if there were no issue of legality, it's generally just a waste of a trigger and sear. You wind up with something that's only good for turning money into noise. Why bother?

Art

Lavid2002 · May 21, 2007, 06:08 PM

Exactly

Csspecs · May 21, 2007, 07:20 PM

There are many many ways to make something. There was a guy in the UK that was supposedly arrested for making a 9mm sub machine gun using steel tubing and sheet metal in his basement.

Everything is made by someone, with a few large shop tools and some know how a person could be cranking out homemade illegal machine guns by the dozen.

oldbillthundercheif · May 21, 2007, 08:58 PM

www.thehomegunsmith.com tells that particular story. It's entertaining reading but the site is nowhere to be found right now...

I hope the wankers didn't lock him up again.

Csspecs · May 21, 2007, 09:00 PM

It was up two days ago.

SteelCore · May 22, 2007, 06:00 AM

A lot of people have a fascination with full-auto fire, thinking that it would provide them with a big advantage over semi-auto fire against armed opponents. If I thought that was the case, then I'd "illegally" and secretly convert one of my rifles to full-auto, since the Second Amendment and my own conscience allow me to do so. But full-auto isn't all it's cracked up to be -- at least not in rifles of reasonable power. It's really pointless to convert rifles. (BTW, full-auto conversions do not empty the mag with a single trigger pull. They work just like ordinary full-auto in a commercial machine gun. Usually the conversions give you full-auto ONLY, not select-fire.)

For one thing, you can shoot so quickly on semi as to make full-auto pretty pointless. I was once asked by a range officer if my rifle was select-fire (not allowed at my range) because my triple-taps were so fast. Anyone can fire that fast as long as the rifle has a decent trigger. But shooting several rounds per second is going to take you off target quickly, even with a .223. So much the worse on full-auto. Full-auto is really pointless in a .308 battle rifle.

From a US military manual:

Quote:

When a soldier uses rapid semiautomatic fire properly, he sacrifices some accuracy to deliver a greater volume of effective fire to hit more targets. It is surprising how devastatingly accurate rapid fire can be. At ranges beyond 25 meters, rapid semiautomatic fire is superior to automatic fire in all measures (shots per target, trigger pulls per hit, and even time to hit). The decrease in accuracy when firing faster is reduced with proper training and repeated practice.

Also from that manual:

Quote:

Suppressive fire should be well-aimed, sustained, semiautomatic fire. Although lacking a definite target, the soldier must be taught to control and accurately deliver fire within the limits of the suppressed area.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita....htm#sectionii

BTW, most here probably know that the Russian AK was developed primarily for use in full-auto mode, since that corresponded with Russian military doctrine (maybe that's changed). I once read in a translation of a Russian military AKM manual that "the greater the distance to a target, the longer the burst should be." How ridiculous! The greater the distance to a target, the more slowly and carefully you need to aim each shot if you expect to hit anything.

Art Eatman · May 22, 2007, 01:55 PM

There has been more than one "fun house" run-through with guys with semi-auto pistols competing against guys with submachine guns. Generally, the pistols win. Scoring is based on number of hits in shortest time.

Art

MD_Willington · May 22, 2007, 02:02 PM

Funny thing about that Russian doctrine... noobs spray more bullets than the officers, officers carry more hand grenades than the noobs and fire less bullets. As was the case for my co-worker who was trained by the Russians when he was a foot soldier in Ethiopia... by the time he was an officer, he fired less bullets and threw more grenades...

Csspecs · May 22, 2007, 03:03 PM

Well at least they left it up to the soldier, none of that "wait till you see the whites of their eyes" crap.

That said full auto is almost useless outside of small caliber rifles.

oldbillthundercheif · May 22, 2007, 08:23 PM

The "whites of their eyes" deal is a saying from the musket days. I seriously doubt there is any service in any country that still goes by that old chestnut... unless there are still nations using muskets.

Maser · May 22, 2007, 08:32 PM

+1 SteelCore.

Most people with such fascination for full autos are people who have NEVER had any experience with one. Sure they can be accurately shot if it's stocked and shooting pistol cartridges, but if it's a stockless sub-machine pistol, unless you are shooting small bursts, the muzzle is going to be all over the place. And when you get into rifle cartridges, it's very hard to be accurate. Just ask my shoulder when I tried firing a full auto M14.........OUCH!!

Hkmp5sd · May 22, 2007, 11:29 PM

Quote:

but if it's a stockless sub-machine pistol, unless you are shooting small bursts, the muzzle is going to be all over the place

Not all the time.

http://www.thegunzone.com/video/glock2.mpg

May 21, 2007, 06:08 PM	#53
Lavid2002 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Posts: 2,568	... Exactly __________________ Math>Grammar

May 21, 2007, 07:47 AM	#52
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	gfen, I'd imagine that a home-conversion would probably quit when the trigger is released. But I wouldn't count on it. Depends on who's doing the meddling. A skilled machinist could make a select-fire trigger group. A kitchen table job with a file or Dremel tool? Good luck! Even if there were no issue of legality, it's generally just a waste of a trigger and sear. You wind up with something that's only good for turning money into noise. Why bother? Art

May 21, 2007, 07:20 PM	#54
Csspecs Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 1,111	There are many many ways to make something. There was a guy in the UK that was supposedly arrested for making a 9mm sub machine gun using steel tubing and sheet metal in his basement. Everything is made by someone, with a few large shop tools and some know how a person could be cranking out homemade illegal machine guns by the dozen.

May 21, 2007, 08:58 PM	#55
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	www.thehomegunsmith.com tells that particular story. It's entertaining reading but the site is nowhere to be found right now... I hope the wankers didn't lock him up again.

May 21, 2007, 09:00 PM	#56
Csspecs Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 1,111	It was up two days ago.

May 22, 2007, 01:55 PM	#58
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	There has been more than one "fun house" run-through with guys with semi-auto pistols competing against guys with submachine guns. Generally, the pistols win. Scoring is based on number of hits in shortest time. Art

May 22, 2007, 02:02 PM	#59
MD_Willington Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2005 Location: SE WA State. Posts: 563	Funny thing about that Russian doctrine... noobs spray more bullets than the officers, officers carry more hand grenades than the noobs and fire less bullets. As was the case for my co-worker who was trained by the Russians when he was a foot soldier in Ethiopia... by the time he was an officer, he fired less bullets and threw more grenades...

May 22, 2007, 03:03 PM	#60
Csspecs Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 1,111	Well at least they left it up to the soldier, none of that "wait till you see the whites of their eyes" crap. That said full auto is almost useless outside of small caliber rifles.

May 22, 2007, 08:23 PM	#61
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	The "whites of their eyes" deal is a saying from the musket days. I seriously doubt there is any service in any country that still goes by that old chestnut... unless there are still nations using muskets.

May 22, 2007, 08:32 PM	#62
Maser Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Mysterious Cities of Gold Posts: 920	+1 SteelCore. Most people with such fascination for full autos are people who have NEVER had any experience with one. Sure they can be accurately shot if it's stocked and shooting pistol cartridges, but if it's a stockless sub-machine pistol, unless you are shooting small bursts, the muzzle is going to be all over the place. And when you get into rifle cartridges, it's very hard to be accurate. Just ask my shoulder when I tried firing a full auto M14.........OUCH!!