questions about .44 spl defensive rounds

[therealtwitch]

I currently have glaser silver tip safty slugs for my .44 spl as a defensive round. however I have zero experiance with these rounds. could and body with experiance with these rounds give me there opinion on them.

the second question is about cor-bon 200 gr. Dpx rounds. I have alot of experance with this round in .45acp and really like it. but I am wondering if it is equally as good in .44 spl. So if you have any experiance with this round please give me your opinion.

and 3rd question is simple what is you choice od defensive round for a .44 spl

thanks everone

[Mike Irwin]

I am not, in any way, shape, or form, a fan of the prefragmented composite ammo like Glaser, Beehive, etc.

In my opinion, the potential for failure to stop from ineffective penetration is simply too high as is the cost of this ammunition.

CCI Blazer 200-gr. Gold Dot HPs have a decent reputation for penetration out of the .44 Special.

My .44 Spl. is more a target gun (6.5" barrel) and not a defensive gun, but were I to be using it as a defensive gun it would be loaded with the Blazer ammo.

[a7mmnut]

Unlike Mike, I want to shoot either Glasers or Magsafes inside my home from my 3" Taurus 431. Overpenetration is exactly what I don't want. Unfortunately, it's still loaded with either Speer Gold Dot 200's or Hornady 180 XTP's, depending on what I'm doing and where I'm going.

I don't see much difference in the performance level of standard loads in my old .45's and the Taurus in .44 Spl. +P loads are quite different. If you put the hotter Corbons in the .44, then.....??? I'd guess from the looks of the DPX ballistics, it must be close.

For now, the Gold Dots shoot well and do just fine.

-7-

[ar15chase]

IMO, Glaser, RCBD, and similar rds, are nothing but expensive trash. Just get some Gold Dots and be done with it.

[VA9mm]

Here are some tests done with DPX from StopingPower.net. I use DPX in my 9mm and .357 Mag

.44 Special-Test pistols-Taurus titanium snub and S&W Model 21

.44 Spec DPX 200gr load

2"-12 1/2 thru 4 layers-rec dia-.71"
4"-13" thru 4 layers-rec dia-.75"

[Magnum Wheel Man]

while I certainly could understand the use or desire to use prefragmented ammo if you have several rooms of people in your house, or live in an apartment...

... I don't normally have anyone but my wife & I in the house... coupled with the fact that the 44 special is not as deep a penitrator as the mag, more in the class of the 45 acp, coupled that in my gun, I find it's very accurate... I don't have any expirience with that type of ammo... however the DPX looks interesting, but a box hasn't jumped out at me yet, & I still have several boxes of the Gold Dots

but as for what ammo I do use... ( look at how huge those hollow points are )

[xrmattaz]

I like the 200gr. Winchester Silvertip. Huge, gaping hollowpoint, and good ballistics.

That said, I've still got a couple of boxes for you, if you ever make it up to the cool country!

[Chesster]

Federal 200gr LSWCHP is my carry load. I have used some standard hand loads with 240 cast SWC. Georgia Arms and Ron Reed both roll some good reasonalbly priced loads for carry. I avoid light JHPs in the 3" guns as it is hard to get enough velocity for reliable expansion.

[Webleymkv]

I wold not hesitate to use Cor-Bon DPX, Speer Gold Dots, Federal LSWCHP, or Winchester Silvertips in a .44 Special. I avoid pre-fragmented rounds like Glaser and Mag-Safe because I don't trust them to penetrate adequately. If you decide to go with Speer Gold Dots, look at the CCI Blazer aluminum-cased ammo, it's loaded with the same bullets as the brass cased SD ammo but comes in 50-round boxes at roughly the same price as the brass-cased 20-round boxes.

[skydiver3346]

Most are in the 200 grain variety. Hard to beat the 200 grain Gold Dot bullet by Speer.
However, another bullet I love to shoot out of my Smith 696 is the Corbon 165 grain .44 special that is faster and still packs quite a punch. Found that I am carrying that bullet more and more in my .44 special.

[Nnobby45]

In my opinion, the potential for failure to stop from ineffective penetration is simply too high as is the cost of this ammunition.

Glasers can be defeated by a zipper. From what I've read, (Ayoob, I think), glasers can a. work spectacularly, b. fail, or c. achieve the same effectiveness as a typical JHP.

TIP: .44 Special is available in CorBon DPX. It isn't loaded too hot to handle.

[tulsamal]

A S&W M296 is one of my two regular carry guns. When I started carrying it, the Corbon 165 grain was the hottest .44 Special out there. So that's what I carried for a couple of years. Then Stephen Camp did a nice review of the then new CorBon DPX load. Sold me. That's been my carry load since then.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/C...X%20Report.htm

As far as the other choices...

The Federal just doesn't want to open up for me.

The Silvertips are accurate but every time I shoot a few I can't shake the feeling that they are underpowered. 740 fps is just too slow for me to have faith in!

The Blazer Gold Dots are nice. They are my go to load for killing goats or other large animals around the ranch. Decent velocity and a great bullet. If you don't want to go exotic, they would be a perfectly good choice.

The CorBon 165 grain JHP is hot and you can tell when you shoot it. And the bullet has a tendency to fragment a bit.

I'll stick in a .jpg here that I found on the net years ago. I didn't actually do the test or take the photo but it is interesting.



Gregg

[Maromero]

Holly !@#$.
That Federal round really surprised me
Shooting my two boxes down the range this weekend.

[Jim March]

The Gold Dot 200gr is almost certainly going to be the best, followed by the Cor-bon DPX.

There's another consideration: one advantage you get out of a big-bore like this or the ballistically similar 45ACP, 45LC and 44-40 is that you can deliver a quality hurt with subsonic ammo (less than 1,050fps or so).

Some of the small reloading houses like Buffalo Bore and Doubletap load the 200gr Gold Dot to supersonic speeds in the 44spl. This in my opinion is probably not a good idea - you want to stay just under the sound barrier, not just over. There's a huge noise difference each side.

If you have a 2" barrel 44spl, those hotter rounds rated at 1,100fps+ from a 4" will likely stay subsonic. But most 44Spl guns are 4" or more. The CCI Blazer 200gr Gold Dot is the same slug but loaded milder and as you can see from the above pic, still likely to expand doing as little as 800fps. What we really need is the 200gr slug loaded right to about 950-975ish.

Which according to the article linked above, is right where Cor-Bon is trying to cruise the DPX in 44spl. Interesting.

ALSO: I don't trust Hornady XTP bullets at this speed range, period. They need magnum performance to work reliably.

[Nnobby45]

The Gold Dot 200gr is almost certainly going to be the best, followed by the Cor-bon DPX.

On what do your base your near certain superiority of the Gold Dot over DPX? Just curious.

[Stainz]

My 296 has had >2,200 200gr GDJHPs in it's life - and several hundred other mixed rounds, inc PMC 180 gr JHPs to 240gr LSWC. All I shoot in it lately is the GA Arms new Starline brass load of the 200gr Gold Dot, Speer #4427. I have chrono-ed them, CCI Blazers, and my reloads (#4427 over 5.7gr Titegroup) and they range from 800-805 fps from my 2.5" 296 - barely eclipsing the 800 fps Speer suggests for reliable opening. The GA Arms rounds delivered cost less than the Al-cased Blazers - and I gain new Starline brass. I keep two HKS CA-44 speedloaders loaded with them for my 296 CCW and the 696 in the safe, as well as two #29s loaded with them for my 629s.

Stainz

[therealtwitch]

wow when I posted this thread I didn't think I would have gotten this kind of quality info. but this has been alot of help. at the start the gold dots wernt even on my list. but now I am going to have to try to find some. right now I am buying the DPX because the local gun shop has them in stock. However I will be buying the gold dots as soon as I can. Then I will do some tests myself with all the brands I have. Thanks guys this is an eye opener

[Wildalaska]

Shoot somebody in the nads with ANY of the loads mentioned and he will screech owie and fall down

WildgivingyoutimetocockaneyebrowAlaska TM

[treg]

Consistant with one of the bullets in the pic above, I had some of the PMC 180 gr loads that were not fast enough to upset the bullet on water filled milk jugs when fired from a 4" revolver, even at very close distances.

[Webleymkv]

My 296 has had >2,200 200gr GDJHPs in it's life - and several hundred other mixed rounds, inc PMC 180 gr JHPs to 240gr LSWC. All I shoot in it lately is the GA Arms new Starline brass load of the 200gr Gold Dot, Speer #4427. I have chrono-ed them, CCI Blazers, and my reloads (#4427 over 5.7gr Titegroup) and they range from 800-805 fps from my 2.5" 296 - barely eclipsing the 800 fps Speer suggests for reliable opening.

Double Tap makes a .44 Special load with the same Speer Gold Dot bullets but loads them significantly faster. Expansion may be a bit more reliable although they may be a bit snappy out of your 296.

[one-shot-one]

if you are goning to uses Glaser's be sure to check how well they fire out of your handgun.
the .357's fired from my 4" Dan Wesson grouped badly even at 15 yards.
many looked as though they went though the target sideways (keyholed).

[moga]

Faster isn't always a good thing. There almost seems like there is a velocity band for which a bullet must be tuned in order to perform optimally. Anything outside of that band rapidly degrades reliable expansion.

With that said, I use the GD 200 grainer JHP in 44 Redhawk but wouldn't lose any sleep if all I had was the 200-Corbon DPX.

EDIT: Webleymkv, I am very much interested in the data that you mentioned in #20 to see if it is consistent with a theory I have on velocity banding. Is such material readily available? I would very much enjoy reading it if you can point me in the right direction. I've noticed that the 355 gold dot performs much better at 38+p pressures than it does in 357 loadings. I would like to know if there is any info from the manufacturer that supports this observation.

[Jim March]

Faster isn't always a good thing. There almost seems like there is a velocity band for which a bullet must be tuned in order to perform optimally. Anything outside of that band rapidly degrades reliable expansion.

You're right - but that "velocity band" is always broader for a Gold Dot slug.

The Gold Dot jacket isn't a normal copper jacket. It's a heavy electroplate that is VERY firmly attached to the lead core. You have to seriously "overdrive" a Gold Dot to get it to shed it's coat.

The only "success" in that department that I know of happened when Cor-Bon experimented with taking the 60gr slug meant for the 32ACP (and under 900fps) and loaded it in 32H&RMagnum cases at roughly 1,500fps .

They managed to prove you CAN make a Gold Dot come unglued .

The 200gr Gold Dot meant for 44Spl is supposed to work at speeds of 800-900fps. We know it holds up fine to 1,200. At 1,500, well, no telling. But NOBODY is getting that in 44Spl, unless you've got a levergun *maybe*.

Also: if you look at ALL these various pics, the Gold Dots are expanding fatter than the DPX, which is usually the case across the board. As long as you're getting enough heat on a Gold Dot, it will usually beat the pants off of anything else when you combine reliable expansion and *serious* expansion as goals.

The DPX however is not at all shabby. And being all-copper, it's ability to survive being "over-driven" probably exceeds the Gold Dot if conditions are extreme enough.

[tulsamal]

First, I like Gold Dot bullets a lot. A truly modern design and we are lucky to have them. And I think the GD bullets in .44 Special are very useful and I do use them.

But, IMO, the .44 Special has some "issues" with them that I believe the DPX loads "fix." Conventional HP's (no matter how good) have to be driven fast enough to expand. You can't just lob them in there. But then you run into the issue that the HP expands so well that you actually give up penetration. Again IMO, the .44 Special GD load just doesn't have enough penetration for my personal use. I want my carry load to be as close to the FBI standard as I can get while still getting good expansion.

If we look at what Mr. Camp said, I want to quote one paragraph toward the beginning.

****

The thing that keeps reverberating amongst those who've used the Corbon DPX in gelatin, water, wetpack, or other tissue substitutes is uniformity and reliable expansion. This is true whether impacting bare gelatin or gelatin covered with four layers of denim or other barriers designed to impede expansion. Mike Shovel of Corbon advises that the DPX line is not necessarily pushed to as high of velocity as safely possible. Instead the velocity is determined and set at the bullet's optimum performance in 10% ballistic gelatin. If the bullet reliably expands and penetrates to at least the FBI's 12" minimum at a certain speed, increasing it only achieves deeper penetration. Unlike Corbon's line of hunting bullets, the attempt with DPX has been to offer expansion and adequate penetration, but not excessive penetration, something that worries some users in possibly crowded scenarios. If one compares the velocities of Corbon's JHP's in the same weight as their DPX counterparts, the former will be higher. Cranking up the speed on a DPX bullet would probably just insure a through-and-through wound on an aggressor. These bullets do not seek to turn themselves inside out, as do more conventional aggressively expanding hollow points.

So the DPX bullets expand but not so much that their penetration is limited. Mr. Camp doesn't use gelatin but rather wet pack which he explains rather extensively in the article so I won't quote that here. Wet pack is much tougher than gelatin and penetration will be much less. But it is useful for comparing one load or bullet to another. If you scroll down to the chart about 2/3's of the way down, you can compare the DPX to the GD.

The DPX was the factory load at 1013 fps. It penetrated 8.5" with perfect expansion and without any loss of "petals."

The GD was a handload at 933 fps. It penetrated 6.5". That handload is about 100 fps higher than what Speer loads. My regret here is that he didn't go ahead and test the factory load as well? Would it go deeper or not? In that dense medium, my guess is that it wouldn't go quite as deep but I could be wrong. That's why you have to actually test them!

The point of the chart (to me) is that the DPX penetrated nearly one third more. As long as it doesn't out and out overpenetrate, that's what I want.

In a perfect world, if I was going to have to engage a bad guy with a handgun, I would prefer my Glock 35 with the .357 SIG barrel. With that long barrel, I get some very nice velocities and deep penetration with the Air Marshal load. But I'm not going to carry that gun around every day. The .44 Special snubby can't reach those velocities. So the choice in the past used to be either a hard cast SWC for deep penetration or a light hollowpoint being driven as fast as possible for expansion. But then you knew you weren't going to get FBI level penetration. IMO, the DPX in the .44 Special lets you get both the expansion and penetration of a heavier caliber fired out of a larger and heavier gun. And that's what I wanted!

Gregg

[Stainz]

The 200gr Speer #4427 GD seems to be in the same velocity design as the .45 Colt version, the #4484 250gr GD. Both share another trait - Midway seems to have dropped them. The local Bass Pro doesn't carry them, either - and the local reloading supplier, Simmons Sporting Goods, also dropped Speer. Anyone know of a stocking source for Speer handgun bullets?

At least the last time I talked with Georgia Arms, they still keep their 200gr .44 Special variant in new Starline brass, although no longer with their headstamp, in stock. The days of $12.88/50 of the Blazer variant at 'Academy Sports' chains are long gone - now ~$30, making the GA Arms brass a better deal. Incidently, they still carried their old 200gr .45 Colt high speed GD - it books! I have clocked them at 1123 fps from my 4" 625MG - and 1,424 fps from my 24" Puma M1892. Their is quite a difference between it and the #4484 250gr lower speed bullet, which has more pre-stress grooving and thinner side walls than the higher speed designed 200 gr .45 Colt GD. There is a difference! Several years ago, I did download and print the #4427 & #4484 data sheets from Speer. Good info. The #4427 is not designed for over 1k fps.

Stainz