Bird Shot for home Defense?

[300magman]

Alright, all you anti birdshot guys, consider this.....how far away was that guy Dick Chaney dropped? and how fast did he go down?

[Gats Italian]

The first line of defense is a Beretta PX-4 in its 20+1 night stand configuration with 147 grainers. The drill for my 7+1 Mossberg 500 is as follows:

Chamber--High brass #4 buck shot.
Tube first--Same.
Tube Second-Same.
Tube Third--High brass #00 Buck shot
Tube Fourth--Same.
Tube Fifth--Same.
Tube Sixth--Same.
Tube last--Slug, acts pretty well as a last shot indicator through felt recoil.

Side Saddle--All slugs.
Butt Cuff--All #00 Buck.

[.357 mag]

I never hear of a "buck" causing to much trouble ether.

A face full of 1 1/4 max dram 4# will work. Every animal I've shot didn't like it and didn't live long enough to for me to care.

I think shot placement is the key. (No one as said this yet.)

Maybe the person that broke into your house is wearing a vest. That will stop just about HD handgun rounds. Most likely buckshot to. Then what.

I've went rounds in of Forums about this. If you have other people in your house other than yourself. "Birdshot" is the way to go. At least for the first round or two. then you can step it up.

I load. 1-1 1/4 4#, 1- 2oz 3 1/2 5 hevi shot(turkey load) then a 3" 00 buck

Thats my story.

.357

[.357 mag]

Alright, all you anti birdshot guys, consider this.....how far away was that guy Dick Chaney dropped? and how fast did he go down?

he was 25 yards away. He was hit with #8's out of a 28 gauge.

[hogdogs]

And he was fine as frogs hair albeit a bit sore with a few little holes in his face! He was a wuss lawyer not a "BUCK" on the rampage. And buckshot is just a word as is BUCK a slang term used for male humans...
Brent

[300magman]

Seriously though, in my area no one talks about and few worry about home defence...those that do generally own dogs.

But if I were thinking about home defence with a shotgun I might consider steel. Steel hits like a brick at close range and sheds energy very quickly. A waterfoul load of BBB or T would have considerable punch and possibly not penetrate though the house as bad as lead...at least in theory.

I hunt geese at 25 yards with BBB, at that range its perfect, at 35 yards they shake it off like rain, and when I once shot a goose at 10 yards it had 10 holes pretty much clear through it that looked like they were .22 caliber.

Anyone want to weigh in on steel goose loads vs lead buckshot?

[Swampghost]

OK. Cheney was 25 YDS. away, 75 ft. The shotcup, if you use them, melted away @ about 30-50 ft. in my experience AND it was #8.

That load @ 12 ft. (your average home invasion confrontational distance) would have a lot of different consequences. I'm gussing that you could see air through the body.

[Mike U.]

Alright, all you anti birdshot guys, consider this.....how far away was that guy Dick Chaney dropped? and how fast did he go down?

That guy was a lawyer. You put them down permanently with silver bullets or a wooden stake through the heart.
I've also heard bang sticks work on'em, sometimes. That is, if you catch them in the water.

[nate45]

I know I for one am going to start using BIRDshot for defense. As soon as I start worrying about being attacked by birds.

[Ruger4570]

These threads come up all the time with advice from many that have never fired a shot at anyone and claiming the results. I also wouldn't think the Ole Box o' Truth is the final word on much of anything other than an interesting read and sometimes right. Now I am NOT looking to get sideways with any of you, but there is just too much uninformed BS floating around.

I don't have a wall in my house more than 25 feet from the opposite one, additionally, I don't think I or the bad guy are gonna be hugging or sliding along a wall with furniture on it. Therefore, in a 25 foot room the ranges will most likely be no MORE than 15 feet, most likely in the center of the room or hall.
I don't claim to be an EX SPURT either, but I will put my trust in a couple of #4 3" Turkey loads,at 10 to 15 feet or closer.
I don't expect to be "racking" my gun so he even hears it, he sure as hell ain't gonna fill his pants, he MAY run, maybe not, you want to take that kind of chance, what if he is hard of hearing? In fact, why worry about what ammo, don't even load your gun, no need too, just keep "racking" your gun, it is bound to terrify a BG.

Why make ANY noise to TELL him WHERE you are or even if you KNOW of his presence in your home. I will quietly load my gun, get into a position of concealment, probably close to the floor or low on one knee where he DOESN"T expect me to be and lay my demand on him to hit the deck... his choice to comply or mine choice to make him comply, boom.
I also don't have countless rounds strapped on my gun, extended magazines or any other Tacky cool stuff. Running gun battles in a home invasion is basically Holly Weird stuff. I use just a Berreta 390 semi auto that for many years has NEVER failed to function, not once. So I don't think I need a so called "more reliable?? pump gun. I think for the most part, one shot, possibly two on an unsuspecting, unexpecting BG will put an end to the conflict right now.
Besides, what good is a pump gun if that BG gets off a shot and happens to hit your left hand, how you gonna pump the gun, with a semi, I just keep pulling on the trigger and it shoots.
Anyone wanting to test MY method, please come on over around 2 or 3 in the morning and we can discuss it in the ICU, that is if you survive.

[USA123456789]

[nate45]

there is just too much uninformed BS floating around.

And it is coming from those that advocate birdshot for defense.

A person can have all the 'trust', 'faith', and 'belief' in the world that birdshot is adequate for defense, but that doesn't make it true.

There is a plethora of information available that shows birdshot offers inferior penetration when compared to buckshot and slugs.

Here is a test of 7 1/2 shot from ten feet away. The deepest penetration depth was 5.9 inches and that was on bare gelatin. Add four layers of denim or light, commonly encountered barriers and you will have less.

Nearly all of the 'EX SPURTs' as you put it advocate buckshot for defense, all testing has shown birdshot to be inadequate for defense.

Now then, I have a bunch of other links of the gel testing of buck shot, birdshot and slugs. I have links to the comments of noted defense and wound ballistics experts. What I want to know is where is your proof that birdshot is adequate for defense? Supply some proof that #4 shot has adequate penetration at 15 Ft.

I already have plenty of test data, my own and that of others showing it does not, so I would be real interested in the tests that show that it does and the comments of the 'expert' that recommends it.

[.45 COLT]

The best part about this recurring subject is that everybody has the answer, and even though the answers are very different, they are all correct – at least, according to whoever “has the floor” at the time. What I don’t see is anybody saying that he tested a load, using (insert test parameters here), and relating the results. Now, I know that you can’t go down to the local lockup and sign out a felon to try your load of choice on, but a lot of meaningful results can be obtained using a medium other than human flesh. I know what my loads will do if the intruder is wearing heavy Carharts or a t-shirt. Worried about overpenetration? Some drywall and a couple of two-by-fours will let you make judgment based on walls. If it is important to you, and it seems to be judging from these threads, you should test your load so you know what will happen when you touch one off.

Three large, very anti-social dogs roaming my house at night also tend to give me some peace of mind.

DC

[Vergeltung]

nate's empirical data is enough for me. issue is closed in my mind.

[Ruger4570]

Nate, you are certainly allowed to use WHATEVER YOU want to use for your home defense rounds, likewise, I am too. I have neighbors all around me closeby and have no desire to shoot buckshot or slugs through walls anymore than possible. I'd sure hate to kill a innocent neighbor in my quest for the best penetrating of a bad guy shotshell.
It is true, walls do have a few 2 x 4's in their construction, but these are generally 16"on center leaving around 14" of nothing but drywall. That deesn't even take into account many windows in most rooms.
As far as any testing performed by me all I can tell you is I shot several loads of #4 3inch magnums completly through 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood. How does that rate against body penetration, fairly well I would assume.
I don't advocate using 7 1/2 shot nor 8's or 9's any more than I would a 22 as a first choice, but I would take ANY of these rather than NONE of these.
From the little testing I have actually done, I doubt there are too many home invaders willing to take more than one, possibly two Magnum #4 Turkey loads.
Your loads may be fine in your neighborhood, but not in mine. I don't know what it takes to be an expert, but I think a measure of common sense and safety for yours and your neighbors should fall into the equation.

[nate45]

Originally Posted by Ruger4570

As far as any testing performed by me all I can tell you is I shot several loads of #4 3inch magnums completly through 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood. How does that rate against body penetration, fairly well I would assume.

Oh really? Thats very interesting, I just happen to have some 3/4 inch plywood and some 3 inch Magnum #4s, I have several different brands and even tungsten heavier than lead ones. I'll bet these tungsten ones will zip right through one or two sheets of 3/4 inch plywood.

How far away were you when you shot? What choke were you using? Were the sheets right together or did they have space between them? I want to know so I can do it and post some pics.

[Ruger4570]

Sure Nate, I used my standard turkey load consisting of Remington Premier High Velocity Turkey Shells. These are copper plated and the load has 1 3/4 oz of shot at 1300 fps, not 1 1/4 oz loads. Plywood was approx 2 or inches +/-apart.
I think you will find if you use THOSE loads the plywood will lose, much as a bad guy being hit COM or head.

[New_Pollution1086]

Bird, 00,00,00,00,00

thats how mine is loaded, mostly b/c I don't want to kill someone. if the continue to come at me or threaten me, i unload the rest.

I have a setup in my apt for an intruder and unless he is at me door it works, (tested with roommates)

next time i go to the range im going to buy a pumpkin and put jeans and a sweatshirt on it and shoot it, ill post on here the results.

T

[Mike U.]

next time i go to the range im going to buy a pumpkin and put jeans and a sweatshirt on it and shoot it, ill post on here the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruger4570
As far as any testing performed by me all I can tell you is I shot several loads of #4 3inch magnums completly through 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood. How does that rate against body penetration, fairly well I would assume.

Oh really? Thats very interesting, I just happen to have some 3/4 inch plywood and some 3 inch Magnum #4s, I have several different brands and even tungsten heavier than lead ones. I'll bet these tungsten ones will zip right through one or two sheets of 3/4 inch plywood.

How far away were you when you shot? What choke were you using? Were the sheets right together or did they have space between them? I want to know so I can do it and post some pics.

GAME ON, BABY!

I am soooo looking forward to seeing these test reults.

[T.A.Sharps]

All you birdshot nuts are basing your argument on either you ONLY want to really hurt or scare the intruder, or you want to use whatever will will not penetrate your walls.

I've shot an air soft pistol, shooting plastic pellets with a spring at 200fps that penetrated half way through a wall.

Not to mention the various penetration tests with bird shot that you can go find.

So any argument that #4 is safer because it won't penetrate "so much" is pure horse [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. If you are going to shoot at someone and miss, it will go through the wall.

The second philosophy you all have that is based on the fact that a turkey load or other birdshot will hurt him so much that there is no way he will keep coming at you. There are plenty of examples, especially in law enforcement, showing how a shot that does not immediately incompasitate someone still gives him the chance to get off one round at least.

He will definitely not be so careful with his choice of firearm or caliber.

Since there is no magic 0 penetration shot load, your only concern should be to put this person down with no chance of him pulling his trigger.

Tests aside,
the fact alone that we have to have these long threads all the time to question the reliability of bird shot is enough not to depend on it for your life.

You can buy some slugs or buckshot just as easily as you can birdshot.

Furthermore, the idea some of you have to shoot your bird load first, then your slightly heavier load, then you're more heavier than that load... blah blah blah. That is just dumb, how many shots you think you would really get off before he could shoot one.

[Musketeer]

Bird, 00,00,00,00,00

thats how mine is loaded, mostly b/c I don't want to kill someone. if the continue to come at me or threaten me, i unload the rest.

Sorry but that is an absolutely irresponsible mindset.

If you shoot someone it is because you believe lethal force was necessary. If it was then you are wrong to use anything less. If it was not then shooting him with birdshot and explaining you did not want to kill him opens you up to prosecution for the unwarranted use of deadly force.

Make up your mind now as to what would cause you to shoot and then load the most effective round available for the situation. Anything else is irresponsible.

[rem870hunter]

someone is trying to get me to say something i don't want to.

just because i have an untruder.


am i supposed to hurt my own to stop an attacker?

i'm changing my HD shotgun loads to winchester low recoil/low noise #8 target loads. and i am going to aim for the intruders face or head.

i'll still keep 5 winchester #1 buck on the stock cuff. and a box of sluggers on the nightstand with my flashlight.

[nate45]

Plywood was approx 2 or inches +/-apart.

OK, I can nail three sheets together with 1x2, but I need to know how far away you were and what choke you used.

next time i go to the range im going to buy a pumpkin and put jeans and a sweatshirt on it and shoot it, ill post on here the results.

That isn't a very realistic test and actually neither is shooting wood, 10% ballistic gelatin is the standard and the substance that most closely simulates human flesh.

Here are some good tests of shotgun loads from number 8 to OO Buck.

12 gauge Wound Profiles

#1 Buck through a sheet of 3/4 inch plywood, two layers of 10 oz denim and into ordnance gelatin.


This article should be a sticky.

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

GAME ON, BABY!

I don't see it as a game, I think it is deadly serious business. People who have no or limited knowledge of firearms read this site in search of factual information. They may be trying to decide what is the best load to load a newly purchased shotgun with, a shotgun they may need to defend their lives and the lives of their famalies.

If someone wants to load their shotgun with birdshot for defense thats their business, but it is not the best choice and it's a choice that could have fatal consequences.

Bird, 00,00,00,00,00

thats how mine is loaded, mostly b/c I don't want to kill someone.

I understand I don't want to kill anyone either, I hope no one reading this wants to kill anyone, but if you don't want to possibly kill someone then don't shoot them with a deadly weapon.


Gelatin Testing: #4 Birdshot

• Range: 3 yards
• Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum
  
• Round: 12 gauge 2� Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
• Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)

[Musketeer]

Nobody can stop you from using loads designed to be used against 6oz feathered creatures with hollow bones or frangible clay targets. If it stopped somebody once somewhere it must be good enough, after all I read it on the web.

[mavracer]

here is a sight that has many gelatin tests from #8s to slugs.remeber these are bare tests.
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

Bird, 00,00,00,00,00

thats how mine is loaded, mostly b/c I don't want to kill someone.

most states will consider this deadly force,yet you admit you didn't think deadly force was necessary.Just playing devil's advocate.
if you feal that way get some less than lethal shells(bean bags) and load one of those.yes they're expensive but way cheaper than the lawyer fees for manslaughter.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...-12-gauge-ammo