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May 26, 2016, 06:42 PM
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#1 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 1,235
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Tubing a 12 Gauge
I doubt that I will ever do it, but I am trying to understand tubing an over under. Meaning full length tubes and not choke tubes or chamber mates, there are two basic ways to go:
1. Tube your twelve gauge with 20, 28, and .401 tubes and use it to shoot all four gauges. If you do, the gun with tubes will be nearly 3/4 of a pound heavier than when shooting 12 gauge and, if you want them to swing the same, you will have to add a barrel weight when shooting 12 gauge, or 2. Get a carrier barrel to be tubed and shoot 12 in the original barrels. If you get a carrier barrel, it can be bored out so as to reduce the weight of the tubed and try to match them, with the added weight of the tubes, to that of the original. Tell me where I have it wrong, please. |
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May 26, 2016, 09:52 PM
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#2 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
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Dreamin,
What you do when you go full length tubes is to add a barrel weight equal to the tube weight when shooting 12
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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May 26, 2016, 11:51 PM
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#3 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
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Yes, you have the 2 options correct. But you also have the option of 4 stand alone guns...and hope the 4 receivers have similar triggers, etc....
Having a "carrier barrel" is what I would recommend over putting on & taking off barrel weights....but carrier barrels add expense. If you were to order a new gun from Kolar as an example - you will see a price to add a carrier barrel ....and tubes & chokes, etc... ------------ What happened to me .....while I shot some skeet & trap at a collegiate level, it was more of a pastime, not something I took seriously like football....it was social, like playing golf... I shot "team" guns not guns i owned ....and as "life" happened, I got back into it about 25 yrs later - thru sporting clays, started shooting skeet again for training ( groove my swing, stance, leads, follow thru) and then took it to sporting tournaments on weekends )....needed a 20ga for regional tournaments ...bought a stand alone gun ...then needed 28ga & .410 so I then bought 1 of each.... ( about $10K 15 yrs ago / now would be about $16K...)...but I had 4 nice over unders ( and I worked on all 4 to make them virtually identical). If I had been a dedicated skeet shooter from the start ...I would have invested in a complete carrier barrel & tube set.../ ...but even today I like having the set of 4 browning xs skeet models in all 4 gages. ------------------ Carrier barrels & tube sets only make sense for serious competition shooters....not casual shooters. When I say serious, I mean a shooter capable of going to the national shoot every year. Not that a casual shooter won't enjoy a complete tubed set, they will, but it's expensive ...but if your budget is fine, go for it !! --------------------- Even 20 yrs ago when I won a few county or regional sporting shoots / I realized very quickly as I competed at statewide levels or regional state levels ....there were a few "elite" shooters winning everything....and for me to get into the top 10% was really hard work ...well out of "the money".../ it was fun ....but it came full circle, and I went back to it being a pastime... Skeet shooting was fun ....and while I would occasionally shoot a 100 in practice ...it was tougher for me to do it in competition .....and I lost pretty quickly in the shoot-offs even after posting a 100.../ I never strung 200 or 300 or 400 together like "the big dogs".... Now in my 60's ( 20 yrs later ) eyes have gone bad and 25'see are not common ....let alone 100's so I don't need to spend $40K on a high end Kolar or Krieghoff tubed gun....my "pedestrian level Citori XS skeet models are a very nice set of guns" and all I need..... Last edited by BigJimP; May 27, 2016 at 12:00 AM. |
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May 27, 2016, 01:06 AM
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#4 |
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Join Date: February 3, 2013
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Thanks, both. That is pretty much what I thought. I think I will stay quite content with shooting the XS-Skeet and loading lighter and lighter loads. For now, shooting 7/8 ounces is fine and perhaps I will go to 3/4 ounces if and when the 7/8ths are no longer challenging. That will be the day.
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May 27, 2016, 08:15 AM
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#5 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
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Sure, but in competition you need a 28ga. / not just shoot a 3/4oz load in a 12ga....( maybe they should let you do that ) ....but sure, stick with a 12 ga.
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May 27, 2016, 09:15 AM
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#6 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
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There are Skeet shooters who use their 20 ga tubes in the 12 ga event so as to not upset the balance/buy carrier barrel and to hold down recoil. 7/8 oz seems to be enough for them.
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May 27, 2016, 09:21 AM
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#7 |
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Join Date: February 23, 2005
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Sure, they just ignore the 12ga as a stand alone gun - and shoot the 20ga, like you say in both events - so it negates the issue of the weight difference with the tubes installed - and shoot tubes in the gun all the time - 20, 28 anc .410.....
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May 27, 2016, 09:32 AM
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#8 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2016
Posts: 101
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The best is to just practice with .410 if you can crush 25 with .410 you'll be dominant with any other gauge. Not to mention the cost savings you'll experience using .410 vs the larger gauges in terms of reloading cost.
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May 27, 2016, 09:55 AM
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#9 |
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Join Date: February 23, 2005
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Practice with the .410...yeah i get that ( but it psyches me out )...
I'm not strong enough mentally....but i lnow a few guys that do that.... Couple of other points.. 1. Stand alone 12ga (tubed) works fine for skeet / shoot 20 ga in 12ga events - and 28ga tubes and .410 tubes... 2. Sporting clays - personally i would not want to give up my 12ga ...so i'd want a carier barrel with 20ga, etc tubes so yhey were all the same ( even though i'd only shoot sub-gagues once in a while). 3. Tube sets - in stand alone gun ( 20ga tube in a 12ga non carrier barrel ) are thin and are more prone to cracking in chamber area or around extractors - so you have to watch the pressures in your shells..../ tubes in carrier barrel are a little thicker... |
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May 27, 2016, 09:59 AM
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#10 | |
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Join Date: May 16, 2016
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Quote:
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk |
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May 27, 2016, 10:45 AM
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#11 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
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My. .410. Laughs at me when i grab it out of the safe....it says " who are you kidding, you suck - you can't shoot this !!! ..."....
Then i hear it chuckling all the way out to ths range ( 45 min of mocking laughter....). |
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May 28, 2016, 11:40 AM
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#12 |
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Join Date: February 3, 2013
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I realize that you can't shoot a 12 downloaded to 7/8 in competition, which makes it too difficult to reign in the cheaters. Anyhow, there is no way I will get good enough to go beyond local fun shoots.
As for 7/8 ounces being enough, I intentionally shot three boxes of 1-1/8 followed by two of 7/8 to see if the difference in muzzle rise was detectable. Speeds and pressures were close to being the same in all and I did my best with the 7/8. Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; May 28, 2016 at 12:16 PM. |
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May 28, 2016, 12:21 PM
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#13 |
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Join Date: February 23, 2005
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Shooting lighter loads ( less shot -- like 7/8 oz or 3/4 oz in a 12ga ) at 1150 fps or 1200 fps....takes less of a toll on you mentally in a tournament / especially if you are shooting a 4 day event - and its hot or humid.
While most of us ignore recoil as an issue ...and if our guns fit us right ( most adults) don't really think recoil is that big a deal ...but recoil is cumulative and builds up if you spend a lot of hours in a day on the course. By day 3 --- the mental game, is a really big deal ...( and leaving those 1 1/8 oz 1300 fps loads at home, is a good plan) ! The "mental" game, is where most of us lose a tournament ...sloppy follow thru, bad stance, bad plan on a sporting clays station, eye fatigue...all that little stuff... |
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May 28, 2016, 02:04 PM
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#14 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
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Why can't you shoot 7/8 in competition?
Folks do it all the time. No need for anything more for skeet or trap if you know how to shoot. Spray and pray with more pellets is not the answer.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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May 28, 2016, 02:19 PM
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#15 |
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Join Date: February 23, 2005
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I think you can shoot 7/8 oz for Skeet in a 12ga event..../ but i wouldn't for trap or sporting clays competition - especially sporting where you may have a few shots ariund 40 yds ( i prefer 1oz loads for competition in trap and sporting...) and my go to load for a long time was 1oz of 8's at 1225 fps .....and i would carry 1 box of 9's and 1 box of 7 1/2's on my cart for real close or real long targets, especially if they stayed on edge as a presentation....clays are much easier to break if you can see the bottom or the top / rabbit targets tend to be harder to break or bio-degradeable targets are harder to break, so i always wanted some 7 1/2's in reserve../ but go look at rule book for NSSA and see what it says....
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May 28, 2016, 03:05 PM
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#16 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
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I checked rules for NSSA.... and yes, in a 12ga event for Skeet, you can shoot any gague smaller than a 12ga if you want to - and shot loads of up to 1 1/8 oz of shot ( 9's to 7 1/2's only ) and no velocity limitations.
so you can shoot 7/8 oz in a 12 ga.... or 1 oz or 7/8 oz in a 20ga in a 12ga event.. ---------------- you are limited to 7/8 oz of shot in a 20ga event ( and you can shoot any gun smaller than a 20ga there too ) - you cannot shoot a 12ga with 7/8 oz of shot in a 20ga event - but you can shoot a "tubed" gun - same shot limit applies. and limit of 3/4 oz in 28ga event --- and 1/2oz of shot in a .410 event. ------------- Trap rules are more complicated...but ATA says you are limited to 1 1/8 oz of shot and they have a velicity limit also ( page 48 of ATA rules )...and if you drop down to 1oz the velocity limitation goes up.. ( also no shot bigger than 7 1/2's )... and you can shoot whatever gague you want ( not bigger than a 12ga.)..--- but you get no additional handicap on scoring for shooting a 20ga, 28ga or .410 .... Trap is a 12ga sport. But remember, in Trap, you have 16 yd singles where you shoot against guys in your handicap class / for Handicap Singles you are given a yardage(based on your running average ) so you will shoot from the 18 to the 27 yd line for Handicap Singles and you shoot against everyone / then there are Doubles../ and Continental Trap where you can load 2 shells.... ------------ You join the organization for "registered shoots" ...and you record all your "registered targets"...and you build an evolving handicap in both Trap and Skeet. In sporting clays ...everyone starts in class D...and you move up or down, based on punches that you get within each class against shooters of same class - you get punches for a win or sometimes a 2nd if there are enough shooter in class / once you get to AA and Master class...if you don't continue to win in those classs you get dropped back to class A. If you need a nap...print those 200 or more pages of rules..and study them in depth...  .../ when I was shooting competition, they sent me a new rule book every year -- read it and carry it / there are annual changes made most every year. Rules on ammo malfunctions, gun malfunctions ...are particularly interesting.../ if your gun or your ammo keeps malfunctioning, you don't necessarily get to shoot another target...( and shooter errors / like forgetting to load a gun or trapping a trigger - are lost targets ...you don't get to shoot them again ...)
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June 9, 2016, 06:27 PM
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#17 | |
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Join Date: April 21, 2009
Posts: 325
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Quote:
There is a procedure to "challenge" someones loads however I've never seen it done. I think allowing people to shoot down-loaded shells in the sub gauges for something like a period of two years after joining the NSSA would do a lot to help bring in younger shooters to registered skeet. Its an idea I've heard kicked around for a while and I'm a fan - at least to try in a few geographic areas. Only needing a 12ga loader and access to various hulls would really bring the entry cost down. There are no commercially available 1/2oz wads that I know of, but I expect that would change - and there are ways to do it if one is so inclined. |
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June 10, 2016, 08:32 PM
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#18 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 3, 2013
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I may not know much, but I am in agreement that 7/8 ounces of shot is fine for skeet. I even think I may break more birds with 7/8 instead of 1-1/8 ounces; possibly because there is less recoil for me to anticipate and the barrels get back on line quicker with the lighter load.
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June 10, 2016, 11:31 PM
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#19 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
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I have seen instances -at major skeet and sporting clays shoots in the last 10 yrs - where shooters were challenged about their shells ....and organizers opened a few shells and weighed the shot and powder charges ....and on more than one occasion, disqualified shooters that were cheating.
There are a few shooters that get a reputation of cheating ...on their shells ....and/or intimidating a referee about a call.../ ...organizers on big shoots all know eachother and try to weed these guys out..../ it's sad, but it happens more than you might think when some ego's get involved..... The bigger the shoot ( like state or regional tournaments ) ....the more the organizers watch what is happening on the fields.....and experienced shooters help keep it fair. We had a station where we had a 50- 60 yd crossing single target....and the guys they caught cheating with loads of 6's and 1 1/2oz loads were some of the better shooters - that were looking for an edge, to get to the next level ....it was sad... ------------- Mental fatigue ( exaggerated by heavy recoil) ....is a factor in a 4 day tournament where you might shoot 1,000 shells.....especially if it's hot or humid....it all adds up. So backing off that max allowed shell, a little, might save you a few targets.... ( and a few targets is a lot / when I lost state tournament, 2 yrs in a row, by 1 target )....to the same guy !! If I could have just focused a little more - on a couple of stations....oh well.... Last edited by BigJimP; June 10, 2016 at 11:49 PM. |
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June 11, 2016, 02:29 PM
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#20 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
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At any larger shoot (state up to Nationals), NO reloads are allowed, you MUST shoot factory. As a ref, I verify that for all shooters on the squad involved. You can always shoot a smaller bore in a larger bore event.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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June 11, 2016, 11:32 PM
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#21 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
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Rules on using reloads varies by state.
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June 12, 2016, 08:59 AM
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#22 |
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Join Date: December 6, 2014
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for regular shoots, it is up to the shoot holder. In the case of the state championships and larger shoots, I have never seen reloads allowed. (One of the reasons those ammo sellers do great at these shoots)
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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June 12, 2016, 11:31 PM
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#23 |
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Join Date: February 23, 2005
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State shoots in Oregon, Washingtin, Idaho and Montana ....we're still allowing reloads in 2015...per the NSCA Rule book ....at least in sporting clays.../ but I would like to see reloads restricted in those shoots too. I don't know if it changed for 2016 or not.... ( i'm not shooting those tournaments anymore )...
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