petition for troops on our borders

[Justin Moore]

Why is it that we have troops protecting KOSOVO, but none protecting the mainland United States?

[ahenry]

You know what Mr. Moore? I completely agree with you. Why do we have troops protecting Kosovo?

[Zander]

More control of the Borders, yes. Using the military, no way, no how! -- Art Eatman

Then you better give the Border Patrol some real armament and issue the 'weapons are free' command...those incursions by Mexican Army regulars aren't going to lessen otherwise.

See third sig below...

[swatman]

DONE

[MeekAndMild]

Why is it that we have troops protecting KOSOVO, but none protecting the mainland United States?

Because Mr. Clinton in his infinite wisdom put an arms embargo on the former Yugoslavian republics back in the early 90's, thus preventing the people from arming themselves, setting up stable borders and ending their civil war.

OTOH the armed citizens of the US border states should be able to form militias at the lowest governmental level and do the entire job themselves.

[bullet44]

Tired & poor
The bankrupt arguments for mass, unskilled immigration
By Steven A. Camarota
National Review, September 3, 2001

Talks in August involving Secretary of State Powell, Attorney General
Ashcroft, and their Mexican counterparts may have produced the broad
outline of an immigration agreement. It would involve a two-step amnesty,
first rechristening the approximately 4 million Mexicans illegally in the
U.S. as "temporary" workers, then giving them permanent residence after a
period of indenture of perhaps three to five years. Even more workers would
then be imported from Mexico as "temporary" workers, and would eventually
receive green cards.

Most critics of this amnesty have focused on the fact that it rewards
lawbreakers and mocks the law-abiding; others have argued that there is no
moral reason for singling out Mexicans at the expense of other
nationalities. While these are reasonable objections, few commentators have
asked the larger question: Is mass unskilled immigration from Mexico really
good for the U.S.? In a new study, the Center for Immigration Studies uses
the latest Census Bureau data to examine the prevalent assumptions
surrounding this issue-and they turn out to be myths.

The ur-justification for unskilled immigration is, "Who else will clean my
pool?" And it contains a kernel of truth, with regard to Mexican
immigration. About two-thirds of all Mexican immigrants are high-school
dropouts, and only 4 percent have a college degree. During the 1990s,
Mexican immigration increased the number of dropouts in the U.S. workforce
by 11 percent, while increasing the supply of all other workers by only
half a percentage point. Thus, the effect of Mexican immigration on wages
is confined to unskilled workers. Since the vast majority of natives have
completed high school and are employed in higher-skilled occupations, most
natives don't face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants.

But there's still a problem: More than 10 million adult native-born
American workers lack a high-school education, and they are in direct
competition with unskilled immigrants. The vast majority of Mexican
immigrants work in such jobs: busboy, pool cleaner, and so on. These jobs
are still overwhelmingly done by natives. The myth that immigrants only
take jobs no one else wants persists primarily because middle-class
Americans view most of these jobs as something they certainly would not
want to do.

The increase in the supply of unskilled labor brought about by Mexican
immigration reduced wages for high-school dropouts by about 5 percent in
the 1990s-not so much because immigrants work for less and undercut natives
(though that does happen), but rather because lower wages are an
unavoidable byproduct of significantly increasing the supply of unskilled
labor. It's basic economics: Increase the supply of something, and the
price will fall.

The chief problem with lower wages for unskilled workers is that they are
already the lowest paid; one need not be a liberal to acknowledge that
beggaring the poor may contribute to social disharmony. It's true that
these wage losses do not vanish into thin air: Lower wages for the poor
should result in lower prices for consumers. But the savings are
infinitesimal, precisely because unskilled workers earn such low wages to
begin with. High-school dropouts account for less than 4 percent of total
economic output. Thus, if Mexican immigration reduces wages for dropouts by
5 percent, prices for consumers are lowered by less than two-tenths of 1
percent. It is simply not possible for a high-tech economy like ours to
derive large benefits from unskilled immigration.

Another myth has to do with welfare. While it is certainly true that the
vast majority of Mexican immigrants come to work and not to use government
services, there's also no question that very many end up using government
services anyway. Even after welfare reform, 31 percent of all Mexican
households in the U.S. use at least one major welfare program-double the 15
percent rate for natives. Clearly, one of the unintended consequences of an
amnesty would almost certainly be to increase welfare costs still further.

Heavy use of welfare by Mexican immigrants stems not from moral defects or
a lack of jobs, but rather from the very low incomes of Mexican immigrants.
The modern American economy offers very limited opportunities for those
with little education, and so poor workers or their children are often
eligible for welfare programs, such as food stamps, public housing, or
Medicaid.

Mexican immigrants also pay very little in taxes. By design, those with
lower incomes pay much less in taxes than middle- and upper-class workers.
This means that even if Mexican immigrants used welfare at the same rate as
natives, they would still be a substantial drain on public coffers because
their tax payments are dramatically lower.

While there is debate among researchers on the fiscal effects of immigrants
overall, there is absolute consensus that immigrants with little education
are a huge drain on the public budget. We at the Center for Immigration
Studies estimate that the average Mexican immigrant will use $55,200 more
in public services during his lifetime than he pays in taxes. In effect,
Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled
workers, holding down labor costs while taxpayers pick up the tab for
providing services to a much larger poor population. It's like any other
subsidy: Businesses that receive it want it to continue, but for the nation
as a whole, it's a bad deal.

Although the economic arguments against unskilled immigration are
overwhelming, many advocates of an amnesty still defend it because they
feel there is no alternative. But in fact, the problem isn't nearly as
intractable as it may seem. The INS estimates that each year, 150,000
illegal aliens leave the country on their own, another 200,000 get green
cards as part of the normal "legal" immigration process, 50,000 illegals
are deported, and about 20,000 die. In sum, the illegal-alien population
decreases by at least 400,000 people each year.

Of course, something like 600,000 new illegals arrive annually, and thus
the total illegal population continues to grow. But the numbers leaving the
illegal population are still huge; if we significantly reduce the number of
new illegal aliens entering the country and increase (even if only
modestly) the number who go home, the problem will largely take care of
itself over time.

How do we do this? In the past, our efforts to control illegal immigration
have focused almost exclusively on the border. While much remains to be
done in this area, the real key to reducing illegal immigration is to cut
illegals off from jobs. Unfortunately, the 1986 ban on hiring illegals has
never been enforced. Although highly regarded pilot programs already exist,
Congress has never provided funding to develop a national verification
system that would enable employers to check quickly whether new hires have
the right to work. Moreover, Congress has refused to increase funding for
workplace enforcement, so we are left with an almost comical situation in
which 300 INS inspectors attempt to enforce the ban on hiring the millions
of illegals now in the country.

An integrated program of workplace enforcement and border control would
cause a steady decline in the illegal population. Even the potential
economic dislocation caused by such a policy would be minimal, since there
is no possibility that all illegals will magically disappear overnight.
This approach would increase wages for the poor, spur productivity gains,
and protect American sovereignty. An amnesty, even if it's dressed up as a
guest-worker program, can achieve none of these ends.

[tyme]

Okay, I just read this and I'm furious. The debate over whether to re-open the borders can occur after they're effectively closed (militarized, more border patrol, whatever).

http://www.thesandiegochannel.com/sa...25-090650.html

Sure it is. But the US is like a big pot of honey with nothing over it but a thin screen full of holes. Border control is just a wast of time...

They're killing our own citizens now, at least the driver of the Ford; the rest of the casualties were not identified, so they may have been illegals.

[nemesis]

It would be wise for you Idealists to come down from your Ivory Towers and see the kind of conditions that actually exist, here on the border.

We have to face reality every day and the reality of it is that uncounted tons of drugs and illegals from countries around the world are crossing our borders without impediment. The lives of many of our local residents are negatively impacted everyday by a flood of people entering this country illegally and it has never successfully been dealt with.

Fish........or cut bait, but please don't tell us what is best for us until you are fully informed.

[bullet44]

We have to face reality every day and the reality of it is that uncounted tons of drugs and illegals from countries around the world are crossing our borders without impediment. The lives of many of our local residents are negatively impacted everyday by a flood of people entering this country illegally and it has never successfully been dealt with. "

Well said Nemesis and that is why it will
only change when it impacts more states.!

[bullet44]

Update;!!!

UNE 21, 2002



Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus? Petition to President Overwhelms White House Email System

White House Inundated with Petitions; Americans Want Troops on U.S. Border

WASHINGTON, D.C. ? U.S. Representative Tom Tancredo (R-CO), Chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, today announced that the Caucus? petition urging the President to immediately deploy troops along the U.S. border has overwhelmed the White House email system.

"Perhaps the White House is finally getting the message," said Tancredo. "It?s about time they realize that the people of this country justifiably feel that the U.S. border is a sieve. It poses a real threat to our security and ignoring this fact represents the most egregious evidence that the federal government is shirking its responsibility to the people of this nation."

Since Rep. Tancredo posted the petition on Tuesday, June 11, 2002, approximately 11,403 petitions have been sent electronically to the White House. Due to the overwhelming response, the White House email system is overloaded. To sustain their email system operations, the system is sending an auto-reply to each petition with a "service unavailable" warning.

To access the petition, please visit www.house.gov/tancredo or www.house.gov/tancredo/immigration

[Oleg Volk]

1. Eliminate minimum wage requirement...which is one of the biggest reason to hire an illegal over a US resident.

2. Eliminate other entitlements...fat chance that would happen! It wouldn't slow immigration but it would much reduce the "public cost" of it.

[longeyes]

Wait a minute, I thought the purpose of the Border Patrol was to provide agua and full-body massages for the migrantes. Or was that the INS...?

[WilderBill]

Armed or not, what we have going on along the border is still an invasion.
That sounds to me like a very legitimate use of the military.

[DadOfThree]

Then you better give the Border Patrol some real armament and issue the 'weapons are free' command...those incursions by Mexican Army regulars aren't going to lessen otherwise

I don't have a problem using the Army against incursions by the Mexican Army. That would be proctecting our borders. But those of you who want the our military to patrol the border for illegal immigrants, do you want to give the "weapons free" order to the military to fire at will on illegal immigrants? I will wait for responses before saying anything else.

[Zander]

I will wait for responses before saying anything else.

I thought my suggestion was quite clear; why do we allow incursions of a corrupt foreign army on our sovereign soil?

I don't give a rat's ass why Mexican Army regulars do it [although it isn't hard to imagine why]; they shouldn't be doing it.

Our federales are tasked with securing our borders. We're fools if we don't insist they do exactly that.

[DadOfThree]

Well, it's been a while and no one else has spoken up.
Zander, I agree with you on the incursions by the Mexican Army but the vast majority of the rest of the posters who were advocating using the military to patrol our borders were concerned with too many illegal immigrants (civilians) crossing the border. I was hoping some of them would respond and explain what they wanted the military to do. Round up and arrest the civilians? Not a good idea. They are not trained in immigration law or any other law besides the UCMJ. Armies are for killing the enemy and breaking their toys. People are always saying "Use the military" for things that the military should not be used for. A military use of force is quite different than a police use of force. The first time that a Mexican in a group of illegal immigrants pulls out a rust old .38 and our military responds with a squad of m16's, the stories will all be about the U.S. military massacre. Zander, you did not advocate using the military against civilians and I didn't want to assume that's what you meant. It was really the others on the board that I was hoping would respond.

[bullet44]

Do Mexican Troops Bring Drugs to U.S.?
By Terence P. Jeffrey


U.S. law enforcement officers in the Southwest are convinced that Mexican military units are crossing the Arizona-Mexico border to aid smugglers in carrying drugs into the United States.

In one incident, says a senior federal law enforcement officer, a major in the Mexican Army was caught at the U.S. port of entry at Naco, Ariz., carrying a detailed drug-smuggling map among his papers. The Mexican officer, said the official, was "coming into the United States and they found the drug smuggling maps on him that showed all the drop points and trails" that local smugglers used for bringing narcotics into the United States.

The official said that in calendar year 2001, the U.S. government officially recorded 12 separate incidents in which Mexican military personnel crossed over the border into Arizona alone. On some occasions, a Border Patrol officer said, Border Patrol agents actually have arrested Mexican Army personnel on U.S. territory.

"Without a doubt" Mexican military have made incursions into Arizona, said the Border Patrol official. "We have actually made arrests of both military and police. And as far as I know in all events the people were released to Mexican custody within 12 hours, as well as returning them with the weapons that they made the incursion with."

?We Get Slapped Down?

When the Border Patrol in the region detains Mexican military personnel the event is placed on a special political track. "It definitely becomes an international situation where we need to make all the notifications all the way up the chain of command to Washington and to the State Department," said the Border Patrol official. "Once we make the arrest we hand it over to Washington to handle. People from our office will return them back over to Mexico, but that is not really done by the Border Patrol officers without direction from Washington."

Another source said that because federal officials in Washington want to downplay the fact that the incursions are being made by Mexican military the incidents are logged as "military/police" incursions.

Law enforcement officials in the field are convinced the intruders are Mexican military because they dress in fatigues, act like trained military personnel, and frequently drive Humvees, a vehicle used by the Mexican military. This, however, does not necessarily persuade officials in Washington.

"We know that they are Mexican military," said the senior law-enforcement officer. "But officially we are not allowed to say that because every time we say that we get slapped down."

"We look at the Humvees that cross the border as a military vehicle," said the officer. "When we bring up these incidents they?re saying in Washington, ?Yeah, maybe they were originally military vehicles but maybe the police have them or maybe the drug cartels have them. You can?t guarantee that it was the military.?"

"Other elements of the government want to minimize the whole cross-border stuff," said the official. "It?s highly political because of the current status between our governments and the agreements they?ve made. This doesn?t fit in."

"We are out in the field," he said. "We are on the ground, and we know what is going on."

The Border Patrol official confirmed that agents in the field believe the Mexican military incursions are often, but not always, connected to drug smuggling "I know it has happened in the past that Mexican military have been apprehended in the same areas and locations that narcotics are present."

"That is what has happened in the past," he said. "We don?t want to narrow it down to every time. It?s just that in a significant number of situations it has been found that that is the case."

On the other hand, this official said, "Often it has been found through interviews that they entered the United States accidentally because they did not know where the line was."

"It has been reported by Border Patrol agents that Mexican military vehicles have been seen with narcotics in them," the Border Patrol official said. "The ones that I am aware of have occurred right on the border with the Mexican military still on the south side. Now, when called upon and questioned it was relayed by their personnel that they had made the seizure already and were planning on just doing whatever they do with it."

"It?s quite possible that they were legitimate," he said.

Border Patrol agents and officers working for other federal law enforcement agencies, however, believe that some of the Mexican military seen frequenting the Arizona border, and making incursions into U.S. territory, are reconnoitering for and protecting drug smugglers and, in some circumstances, carrying the drugs across the border themselves.

A Border Patrol official described one incident in which Mexican military personnel were detected and "seen fleeing south before we were able to make the arrests." When officers investigated the place from which they had fled "narcotics turned up in the area."

So far, the official says, because of this kind of flight, U.S. authorities have not been able to capture Mexican military personnel inside the U.S. while in actual physical possession of narcotics. "I don?t think they want to surrender with narcotics in their truck and that is why it unfolds the way it does," he said.

Law enforcement officials monitoring the Arizona border are also greatly concerned about the intensity and sophistication of the surveillance that drug cartels do in the region.

"It is an extremely common event where we?ll catch drug smugglers with handheld radios, night vision equipment, different maps," said one official. "There is counter-intelligence and counter-counter-intelligence where we are monitoring them monitoring us."

Another official said that they have captured encrypted portable radios from the drug smugglers. U.S. authorities have been able to use these captured encrypted radios to intercept and monitor the smugglers? communications.

In Texas, where military units provided surveillance support for border security personnel, drug cartel counter-surveillance people monitored the military bases to see when the U.S. personnel were leaving the base to start their surveillance.

In Arizona, drug cartel counter-surveillance people got to know the routines and habits of some U.S. border security personnel so well that they gave them code names.

In Nogales, Ariz., said an official, an undercover Border Patrol officer, working with local police, discovered that a drug smuggling ring had placed agents posing as gardeners on the city streets. "They witnessed an individual," he said, "who poses as a landscaper who watches Border Patrol agents and other law enforcement vehicles driving down the roads and then gets on his radio and calls and says, ?Hold up on your load. A Border Patrol agent just drove down. He is coming through your area.?"

Another law enforcement officer referred to a site in Coronado National Monument as "smugglers? ridge." The monument sits right on the border, with the top of the ridge in U.S. territory and the south side of the mountain in Mexico. On that ridge, he says, law enforcement authorities have "identified 27 different counter-surveillance locations in which people working for the smugglers will spend days observing everything that goes on in the park."

At the bottom of the mountain on the north side is a residence for park rangers. "When the ranger leaves his house, they will report that he left the house and he got in his patrol vehicle, and what road he is driving down."

"If the ranger stops and gets out of his car," he says, "they will report whether he got out with a rifle or without a rifle."

"On specific occasions," he said, "we have had up to 18 Mexican counter-surveillance people in the park at one time. We have seen them within 50 feet of the house. Once when a ranger responded to a sensor hit, one of the counter-surveillance people recorded that the ranger was putting on his pants to respond. In other words, he was looking through the window."

This official described an incident when a ranger stopped two men in a truck because the driver was speeding. "He found 400 pounds of marijuana in the back of the truck," said the official. "He arrests them, sits them down. There is a radio squawking. He is very fluent in Spanish, so he listens. What the voices on the radio are describing is the actual stop of the vehicle he had just made, where the vehicle is currently parked, what happened to the two people who are handcuffed, where they are sitting, and a description of the ranger."

At times, a special Arizona Army National Guard unit supports federal law enforcement agents patrolling the Arizona border in the effort to stop drug smugglers and illegal aliens. The National Guard unit, whose members call themselves the Nighthawks, uses special night-vision devices to detect smugglers after dark. They provide the U.S. agents with real-time intelligence on how many intruders have crossed the border and which way they are heading. They also look out for snipers.

But after September 11, officials say, the National Guard was forced to refocus its resources at official ports of entry, minimizing its presence in the more remote areas where the military incursions and the bulk of the smuggling take place.

[bullet44]

"The first time that a Mexican in a group of illegal immigrants pulls out a rust old .38 and our military responds with a squad of m16's, the stories will all be about the U.S. military massacre."

Oh, my no would not want to hurt anyone
entering our country "illegally" would'nt
be PC.:barf:

[DadOfThree]

Bullet44
Entering our country illegally is wrong and violators should be picked up and dealt with according to the law. Are you suggesting we set up a kill zone along the border and shoot anyone who crosses it? The military prisons couldn't hold all of the soldiers who refuse to fire on unarmed women and children. You would be setting the military up to fail all over again. PC or not you can't order military members to target and kill civilians. Would you shoot a little old lady for stepping over the line?