Want to Piss of HCI?? The Second Coming... - Page 2

dZ · September 23, 1999, 09:25 AM

i brought up this same point when the Littleton event happened
the day of the shooting ABC had a web graphic for school violence
It was an AR 15
IF there was a random car explosion and they used a picture of a Lexus i think there would be fall out...

dZ

Dr.Rob · September 23, 1999, 11:04 AM

On copyright fair use etc...

You guys need to understand that "fair use" of someone else's product or logo or likeness is admissable under NEWS REPORTING, COMMENTARY, or for the Purposes of PARODY, and in a few other cases. (this is what allows the editorial cartoonists to thrive guys) The MEDIA os often by default exempt. That's why ABC can get away with using a "colt" rifle in a news graphic. Also note since the M-16 was a government contract weapon the "copyright" for its use is in the public domain.

However, even parody doesn't cover an offender in all cases, as Mattell IS PROACTIVE like a BULLDOG in protecting the use and "image " of Barbie dolls. Case in point.. an ad agency had a humor site/parody of barbie dolls in "adult" situations.. mattell cried FOUL and got a cease and disist injunction becuase the AGENCY had DEFAMED the "wholesome image" of Barbie. NOT the LOGO or COPYRIGHT. (it should be noted that the site was a "vanity site" and wasn;'t making any money. Similarly Mattell recently threatened Barbie COLLECTOR sites to stop using the Barbie logo. Mattell and Disney are the two BADASSES in the indutry at proactively protecting their corporate "image" perhaps its time for the gun manufactureres to do the same.

Now if HCI or othe groups are using the copyrighted, patented, trademarked for the PURPOSES of DEFAMING said manufactureres they may have a case to get a cease and decist. It sort of depends on how HCI is classified as a "business" or as a lobbying group. HCI might have a "fair use" loophole.. but the lawyers at Berretta, Browning, and Colt, Lorcin, etc. could probably take a look at it closer.

My two cents worth... and an interesting thread.

Dr.Rob

(by the way I'm an art director by trade and you get to learn a lot about copyright law in my field)

El Jefe · September 23, 1999, 01:51 PM

Doc,
Thanks for the fair use lesson! That is a piece of info that we could all use. I have to believe however that HCI is using the Beretta 92/96 in a derogatory manner, They recently lost BIG in a suit against Beretta and had to pay the Gun Manufacturer ( that had to hurt) I find that it is no coincedence that they now use the Beretta 92/96 as thier posterchild for gun control. There has to be some Malice in their use of the Beretta. I am sure that once Beretta's Ball cutters (as one individual put it) gets into the finite details they will make something happen.
Gwinny I am going to that site and will edit this post afterwards...
.....Well I tried from work and Home on several occasions and to no avail, don't know why I cannot access the Link, I tried...El Jefe

[This message has been edited by El Jefe (edited September 23, 1999).]

Dennis · September 23, 1999, 03:17 PM

Doc Rob,

"... Purposes of PARODY..." you say? Hmmmm.

HCI. HCI. HCI.....Purposes of parody. Hmmmm.
HCI? No. HIC, Handguns In Control... Hmmmm. Yeah! That’s it!
-------

Handguns In Control!
(Sing to the tune of the Teddy Bears’ Picnic)

1) Sweet little lady just listen to me, you’re so small and petite,
There’s something better and better by far than using hands or feet.
So get yourself trained and then get a gun
For self-defense or even for fun
Just get a revolver or semi-automatic.

2) If you go out of your home today, you better not go alone.
Your handgun is a much better friend than any old cell phone.
Just get yourself a Smith or a Star,
Some think the Colt is better by far
Just get a revolver or semi-automatic.

3) A handgun keeps you safe at work, at home and in between,
A handgun can be your very best friend as many folks have seen,
So get a Taurus , HK or Sig,
Don’t let yourself be raped by a pig!
Just get a revolver or semi-automatic.

4) Learn how to shoot, and learn about law, and all of your legal rights.
Keep your finger outside the guard ‘till a bad guy’s in your sights!
Pretty don’t matter, just be sure it works,
Protect yourself from criminal jerks
Just get a revolver or semi-automatic.

---------------------------------

Doc? I think I need help, Doc.....

Dr.Rob · September 23, 1999, 03:27 PM

lol yes you need help.

anyway believ it or NOt.. the landmark case about fair use and PARODY is the people vs Larry Flynt (and that's NO lie)

stay safe and have fun,

Dr.Rob

El Jefe · September 23, 1999, 09:12 PM

Well Well ...HCI is up to yet more tricks, they have a Pre-Written Fax that you can send to your Congressmen, I have taken the liberty to Correct their Grammer so feel free to cut and paste away, you can e-mail or Fax your representative by utilizing this site http://www.visi.com/juan/images/ here is a slightly modified version

of HCI's Fax......Additional comments or changes welcome!......

While you were on summer recess, it happened
again.

Another mass shooting, this time at a Jewish
Community Center in Los Angeles. Fortunately no one was killed at the Center, but that was just plain luck.

The self-proclaimed "white supremacist"
responsible for this hate-motivated act of
violence clearly intended to commit murder
when he entered the lobby of the Center
carrying an Uzi assault weapon and opened fire, seriously wounding an elderly receptionist, a teenage counselor and three small children. Then, after fleeing the scene of his rampage, the same madman shot and killed a postal worker simply because his skin wasn't white.

Los Angeles is the fourth mass shooting that
has taken place in the four months since the
April massacre at Columbine High School, where 15 people lost their lives, and since Congress promised to pass legislation to help end such senseless carnage.

The other rampages resulted in four woundings in Conyers, Georgia, two deaths in Chicago and nine deaths in Atlanta. All three of these incidents occurred before you left on vacation.

When is it going to end? When is Congress going to find the courage to stand up to HCI and tell them that enough is enough. One more Useless gun law would not have made the difference in any of these cases. I ask that you do the sensible thing and stop trying to push useless feel good legislation. Instead Join the NRA, follow thier lead and pass the kind of laws that will keep guns out of the hands of deranged men like Benjamin Smith,Buford Furrow and Mark Barton, and disturbed
children like Columbine students Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. At a minimum Pass laws that will make it easier to enforce the 20,000 laws currently on the books and make it easier to get a convicton on deranged individuals such as these. It is time to put the blame where the blame lies. The Law abiding citizen IS NOT TO BLAME and therefore should not be made to suffer!

I urge you to take a stand right now and insist that the House of Representatives REJECT the senseless gun control measures passed by the Senate in the juvenile justice legislation.

And I want you to understand that what you do, or don't do, in the critical weeks ahead will determine what I, my family and friends do on election day, 2000. A pro-gun stance will result in a pro-gun vote!

Sincerely,

Have fun I am Faxing mine now! El Jefe

------------------
...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson

... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein

... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan
Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

El Jefe · September 25, 1999, 06:45 PM

I just got done spending the last few hours faxing My Congressman, the fax listed in my previous post. Fax Programs are great! We have to remember that not every one of of these Congressmen and Senators are up for re-election. Hopefully we will not fall victim to voter Apathy and lose our edge (however slight) If we gain more pro-gun Congressmen and Senators the ones that are left need to know that they are next! Change the atitude or prepare for a change of lifestyle! Send those Fax's/Letters/E-mails! Furthermore HCI lists all of the Senators/Congressmaen on the Juvinile justice legislation Conference Commitee If you copy it into MS Word it will show all of the e-mail addrsses and fax nombers, Then fax to them as well your severe dissapointment. We need to hand HCI another defeat this is as yet one more way. Back to the trenches...El Jefe

Here are the Juvenile justice Conference members and their fax #'s...

Orrin Hatch 202-224-6331
Ted Kennedy 202-224-2417
Jeff Sessions 202-224-3149
Henry Hyde 202-225-1166
Bill McCollum 202-225-0999
George Gekas 202-224-8440
Lamar Smith 202-225-8628
Charles Canady 202-225-2279
Bob Barr 202-225-2944
John Conyers 202-225-0072
Martin Mechan 202-226-0771
Robert Scott 202-225-8354
Shiela Jackson 202-225-3317
Lee
Zoe Lofgren 202-225-3336

If you use the Letter that I gen'ed up in the previous post make sure you put " THIS IS NOT ANOTHER HCI FAX>>>READ ON." At the
top. We don't want to get counte amongst the enemy....Later EL Jefe

[This message has been edited by El Jefe (edited September 25, 1999).]

John/az2 · September 25, 1999, 10:22 PM

El Jefe,

This post is in no way intended to disparage your efforts. I have a few genuinely curious questions for you.

Maybe you're just taking this in steps, but to enforce the 20,000 laws that already exist would be to enforce the unconstitutional ones as well (which are most likely the majority of those laws) and we could see ourselves in the "slammer", due to some ignorance on our part. And why do we need to pass laws that make it easier to enforce other laws? It seems like major duplicity and more buerocracy (I hate that word so much I can't even spell it right!)

Why compromise with it? Just tell them that we want the unconsitutional one repealed (as the republicans promise) and the constitution restored to it's proper place, not in front of the door to be used as a mat.

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited September 25, 1999).]

El Jefe · September 26, 1999, 03:23 AM

John....Babysteps is more like it, My intention is for them to focus on the laws they have already passed instead of trying to re-invent the wheel everytime. We can challenge the Intrusive, invasive laws as they come up and get the courts to toss them. As for other laws, well I simply meant laws that close the loopholes and make the ones we have more enforcible...Along the lines of project exile That way when the Non-Law abiding commit criminal acts they drop the hammer and the hammer stays dropped. None of this would ever happen instantly, so we need to get them to re-focus and go after the real problem instead of our Gun Rights. Your assumption was correct....Baby Steps!

------------------
...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson

... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein

... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan
Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

El Jefe · September 29, 1999, 11:43 PM

Just a thought...After our run on Beretta, little remains changed, so I suggest that we write into some of our favorite Gun Magazines, Letters to the editor and express our Disdain that Beretta USA By act or deed is Allowing HCI to use it's famous Beretta 92/96FS as a poster Child for their website. We May get a full page add out of it....Just a thought El Jefe

othermarc · September 30, 1999, 10:03 AM

Am going ot fax a bunch of people today! Thanks El Jefe! Good form fax, and thanks for getting the #'s for me.

John, gotta go with the babysteps idea. While people may realize more gun laws are ineffective, I think most of the country would not back repealing laws as they probably feel some control is needed. The angle I'm working, and it's probably the same for El Jefe, is to get them to realize gun control is not crime control. Show 'em that we feel you've made enough laws, now enforce 'em to stop these tragedies. Everyone knows a law is useless unless enforced. Ever see the Simpsons episode where they found an old law on the books saying prohibition was still ineffect, but they just had not obeyed it the last 60 some yrs? Similar idea. Buford broke some existing laws, so passing new ones is not necessary unless you are going to enforce them.

Why does congress need to pass more legislation? Well, what in the hell else are they going to do with their time? It's a gosh darned shame, but the fact is we have so many useless laws cause they need ot continue to justify themselves. Until the sleeping comfy gian that is the American people awakens to the madness that is going on in DC- and <gulp> DOES something about it- they are going to keep on making useless laws.

Ever read Tom Clancy? In his book "Executive Orders" most of congress is killed in an accident. The president asks America to send DC it's Doctors, Engineers, Artists, and other practical professional people. The remaining Congress and political types go ballistic, cause their worst fear comes true! Congress would be made up of the people and by the people! Shoot, could you imagine if you and I, and hundreds of others like us were in Congress? Can you imagine how amazing that would be? What would be accomplished, and not accomplished? I for one would not go sit in a fluffy office all day BSing with others. I'd say, "call me when you have something for me to vote on and I'll come down to DC. Until then, I'm going ot do something useful with my time."

Ahhh...alas, it won't be like that. Not enough people willing ot vote for me, or you, I'm afraid. If only we could start all over again.

El Jefe · October 5, 1999, 11:46 AM

Update on Beretta
It appears that the american Beretta legal team is out of the Country....Quick trip to headquarters. Judging from the Long runtime on the disclaimer as well as the sound of frustration in the voices of their staff I certain that HCI is on the Agenda and their blatant misuse of the 92/96FS as their poster Child, I am making further inquiries, and I will let everyone know the minute we get some results! I have asked Maryanne Albert to update the banner with a more current status but nothing yet!

------------------
...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson

... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein

... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan
Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

El Jefe · October 16, 1999, 02:59 PM

Hola all, i just fired off yet another e-mail to Beretta USA and I am sending it as a FAX to Beretta In Italy as well. As I was visiting the Beretta International Site ( www.beretta.it )noticed the following in small print..... The total or partial reproduction of text, photographs and illustrations is not permitted in any form.... I guess it goes to show just how much weight that carries when HCI is allowed to basically do what it wants in that respect. I will let you know what if anything comes of it. I have been busy chewing out Colt and Faxing my Congressmen, sorry I let this slide!....God Bless, El Jefe

zip · October 16, 1999, 03:49 PM

thanks i was just wondering if this had gone anywhere latly

------------------
oneshotonekill

Christopher · October 19, 1999, 05:33 PM

Sorry I'm a little late to the party. Been off the forums for a while, and just got back yesterday. As soon as I'm done writing this I'll shoot my e-mail off to Beretta. Better late than never, I suppose.

El Jefe · October 21, 1999, 01:56 AM

Christopher,
Life has thrown me a couple of curve balls as well and it has made it a bit difficult for me to bird dog this the way I want to. I received a quick note that said my e-mail was being passed off to the lawywer, the same one that is out of the country, So we will see how long it takes for a response. I was rather hoping for something a little more inciteful than...I passed it on to the lawyer....Time will tell and I really don't expect that Beretta will tip it's hand because of my badgering, but who knows, the squeaky wheel gets the grease right! keep up the calls and e-mails/faxes who knows we may get a better response! God Bless El Jefe

El Jefe · December 24, 1999, 01:14 AM

You are not gonna believe this!! Beretta has been in HCI's Butt about the use of their Beretta 92 on their page, To date HCI has refused to remove it from their site HOWEVER it seems that all of our hard work was not for naught!! Beretta has forced HCI to Alter their Websight AND It has gotta hurt, they tried to make it as Unnoticeable as posible however if you go to HCI's website you will notice a disclaimer in RED on the bottom of their page and it states the following:
"DISCLAIMER
Our website uses images of specific firearms for illustrative purposes. Needless to say, our use of such images should not be construed as an endorsement of our objectives by the manufacturers of such firearms."

Can you believe that?? That has gotta hurt like a Stick in the eye!! Now both Beretta And HCI have Disclaimers with info Concerning HCI's Use of the Beretta 92 on it's page!!

Now for the follow up part....We ALL called and Gave Beretta Grief about allowing HCI to use it's Beretta 92 on it's page, Beretta said they would address the situation and they did, It is now time to get back on the Phones and on the E-mails and Praise Beretta for taking the time to Address this given the sheer amount litigation they are currently in.
You can jump off to both sites from my Webpage if you so desire, HCI...Click on these experts agree, Beretta USA click on the Silver Beretta Icon.

We were quick enough to drop in on them when we were outraged at what we saw, we must be just as swift with our praise and support. Here it is E-mail [email protected] (leadership Forum) or call 1-800-528-7453 and ask for the Legal Dept so that you can thank MR. Jeff Reh and his Staff.
Reproduce this post at will and pass it on as only you can!! THANK YOU for all of your support, we have gotten a lot accomplished IMHO since I first posted in September of this year!! Make those calls, Send those E-mails! Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

------------------
...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

Jeff OTMG · December 24, 1999, 12:59 PM

I will mention this to them in person at the SHOT Show in a few weeks.

September 23, 1999, 09:25 AM	#26
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	i brought up this same point when the Littleton event happened the day of the shooting ABC had a web graphic for school violence It was an AR 15 IF there was a random car explosion and they used a picture of a Lexus i think there would be fall out... dZ

September 23, 1999, 11:04 AM	#27
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	On copyright fair use etc... You guys need to understand that "fair use" of someone else's product or logo or likeness is admissable under NEWS REPORTING, COMMENTARY, or for the Purposes of PARODY, and in a few other cases. (this is what allows the editorial cartoonists to thrive guys) The MEDIA os often by default exempt. That's why ABC can get away with using a "colt" rifle in a news graphic. Also note since the M-16 was a government contract weapon the "copyright" for its use is in the public domain. However, even parody doesn't cover an offender in all cases, as Mattell IS PROACTIVE like a BULLDOG in protecting the use and "image " of Barbie dolls. Case in point.. an ad agency had a humor site/parody of barbie dolls in "adult" situations.. mattell cried FOUL and got a cease and disist injunction becuase the AGENCY had DEFAMED the "wholesome image" of Barbie. NOT the LOGO or COPYRIGHT. (it should be noted that the site was a "vanity site" and wasn;'t making any money. Similarly Mattell recently threatened Barbie COLLECTOR sites to stop using the Barbie logo. Mattell and Disney are the two BADASSES in the indutry at proactively protecting their corporate "image" perhaps its time for the gun manufactureres to do the same. Now if HCI or othe groups are using the copyrighted, patented, trademarked for the PURPOSES of DEFAMING said manufactureres they may have a case to get a cease and decist. It sort of depends on how HCI is classified as a "business" or as a lobbying group. HCI might have a "fair use" loophole.. but the lawyers at Berretta, Browning, and Colt, Lorcin, etc. could probably take a look at it closer. My two cents worth... and an interesting thread. Dr.Rob (by the way I'm an art director by trade and you get to learn a lot about copyright law in my field)

September 23, 1999, 01:51 PM	#28
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	Doc, Thanks for the fair use lesson! That is a piece of info that we could all use. I have to believe however that HCI is using the Beretta 92/96 in a derogatory manner, They recently lost BIG in a suit against Beretta and had to pay the Gun Manufacturer ( that had to hurt) I find that it is no coincedence that they now use the Beretta 92/96 as thier posterchild for gun control. There has to be some Malice in their use of the Beretta. I am sure that once Beretta's Ball cutters (as one individual put it) gets into the finite details they will make something happen. Gwinny I am going to that site and will edit this post afterwards... .....Well I tried from work and Home on several occasions and to no avail, don't know why I cannot access the Link, I tried...El Jefe [This message has been edited by El Jefe (edited September 23, 1999).]

September 23, 1999, 03:17 PM	#29
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Doc Rob, "... Purposes of PARODY..." you say? Hmmmm. HCI. HCI. HCI.....Purposes of parody. Hmmmm. HCI? No. HIC, Handguns In Control... Hmmmm. Yeah! That’s it! ------- Handguns In Control! (Sing to the tune of the Teddy Bears’ Picnic) 1) Sweet little lady just listen to me, you’re so small and petite, There’s something better and better by far than using hands or feet. So get yourself trained and then get a gun For self-defense or even for fun Just get a revolver or semi-automatic. 2) If you go out of your home today, you better not go alone. Your handgun is a much better friend than any old cell phone. Just get yourself a Smith or a Star, Some think the Colt is better by far Just get a revolver or semi-automatic. 3) A handgun keeps you safe at work, at home and in between, A handgun can be your very best friend as many folks have seen, So get a Taurus , HK or Sig, Don’t let yourself be raped by a pig! Just get a revolver or semi-automatic. 4) Learn how to shoot, and learn about law, and all of your legal rights. Keep your finger outside the guard ‘till a bad guy’s in your sights! Pretty don’t matter, just be sure it works, Protect yourself from criminal jerks Just get a revolver or semi-automatic. --------------------------------- Doc? I think I need help, Doc.....

September 23, 1999, 03:27 PM	#30
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	lol yes you need help. anyway believ it or NOt.. the landmark case about fair use and PARODY is the people vs Larry Flynt (and that's NO lie) stay safe and have fun, Dr.Rob

September 23, 1999, 09:12 PM	#31
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	Well Well ...HCI is up to yet more tricks, they have a Pre-Written Fax that you can send to your Congressmen, I have taken the liberty to Correct their Grammer so feel free to cut and paste away, you can e-mail or Fax your representative by utilizing this site http://www.visi.com/juan/images/ here is a slightly modified version of HCI's Fax......Additional comments or changes welcome!...... While you were on summer recess, it happened again. Another mass shooting, this time at a Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles. Fortunately no one was killed at the Center, but that was just plain luck. The self-proclaimed "white supremacist" responsible for this hate-motivated act of violence clearly intended to commit murder when he entered the lobby of the Center carrying an Uzi assault weapon and opened fire, seriously wounding an elderly receptionist, a teenage counselor and three small children. Then, after fleeing the scene of his rampage, the same madman shot and killed a postal worker simply because his skin wasn't white. Los Angeles is the fourth mass shooting that has taken place in the four months since the April massacre at Columbine High School, where 15 people lost their lives, and since Congress promised to pass legislation to help end such senseless carnage. The other rampages resulted in four woundings in Conyers, Georgia, two deaths in Chicago and nine deaths in Atlanta. All three of these incidents occurred before you left on vacation. When is it going to end? When is Congress going to find the courage to stand up to HCI and tell them that enough is enough. One more Useless gun law would not have made the difference in any of these cases. I ask that you do the sensible thing and stop trying to push useless feel good legislation. Instead Join the NRA, follow thier lead and pass the kind of laws that will keep guns out of the hands of deranged men like Benjamin Smith,Buford Furrow and Mark Barton, and disturbed children like Columbine students Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. At a minimum Pass laws that will make it easier to enforce the 20,000 laws currently on the books and make it easier to get a convicton on deranged individuals such as these. It is time to put the blame where the blame lies. The Law abiding citizen IS NOT TO BLAME and therefore should not be made to suffer! I urge you to take a stand right now and insist that the House of Representatives REJECT the senseless gun control measures passed by the Senate in the juvenile justice legislation. And I want you to understand that what you do, or don't do, in the critical weeks ahead will determine what I, my family and friends do on election day, 2000. A pro-gun stance will result in a pro-gun vote! Sincerely, Have fun I am Faxing mine now! El Jefe ------------------ ...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. ..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson ... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein ... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

September 25, 1999, 06:45 PM	#32
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	I just got done spending the last few hours faxing My Congressman, the fax listed in my previous post. Fax Programs are great! We have to remember that not every one of of these Congressmen and Senators are up for re-election. Hopefully we will not fall victim to voter Apathy and lose our edge (however slight) If we gain more pro-gun Congressmen and Senators the ones that are left need to know that they are next! Change the atitude or prepare for a change of lifestyle! Send those Fax's/Letters/E-mails! Furthermore HCI lists all of the Senators/Congressmaen on the Juvinile justice legislation Conference Commitee If you copy it into MS Word it will show all of the e-mail addrsses and fax nombers, Then fax to them as well your severe dissapointment. We need to hand HCI another defeat this is as yet one more way. Back to the trenches...El Jefe Here are the Juvenile justice Conference members and their fax #'s... Orrin Hatch 202-224-6331 Ted Kennedy 202-224-2417 Jeff Sessions 202-224-3149 Henry Hyde 202-225-1166 Bill McCollum 202-225-0999 George Gekas 202-224-8440 Lamar Smith 202-225-8628 Charles Canady 202-225-2279 Bob Barr 202-225-2944 John Conyers 202-225-0072 Martin Mechan 202-226-0771 Robert Scott 202-225-8354 Shiela Jackson 202-225-3317 Lee Zoe Lofgren 202-225-3336 If you use the Letter that I gen'ed up in the previous post make sure you put " THIS IS NOT ANOTHER HCI FAX>>>READ ON." At the top. We don't want to get counte amongst the enemy....Later EL Jefe [This message has been edited by El Jefe (edited September 25, 1999).]

September 25, 1999, 10:22 PM	#33
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,729	El Jefe, This post is in no way intended to disparage your efforts. I have a few genuinely curious questions for you. Maybe you're just taking this in steps, but to enforce the 20,000 laws that already exist would be to enforce the unconstitutional ones as well (which are most likely the majority of those laws) and we could see ourselves in the "slammer", due to some ignorance on our part. And why do we need to pass laws that make it easier to enforce other laws? It seems like major duplicity and more buerocracy (I hate that word so much I can't even spell it right!) Why compromise with it? Just tell them that we want the unconsitutional one repealed (as the republicans promise) and the constitution restored to it's proper place, not in front of the door to be used as a mat. ------------------ John/az "The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA! www.quixtar.com referal #2005932 [This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited September 25, 1999).]

September 26, 1999, 03:23 AM	#34
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	John....Babysteps is more like it, My intention is for them to focus on the laws they have already passed instead of trying to re-invent the wheel everytime. We can challenge the Intrusive, invasive laws as they come up and get the courts to toss them. As for other laws, well I simply meant laws that close the loopholes and make the ones we have more enforcible...Along the lines of project exile That way when the Non-Law abiding commit criminal acts they drop the hammer and the hammer stays dropped. None of this would ever happen instantly, so we need to get them to re-focus and go after the real problem instead of our Gun Rights. Your assumption was correct....Baby Steps! ------------------ ...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. ..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson ... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein ... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

September 29, 1999, 11:43 PM	#35
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	Just a thought...After our run on Beretta, little remains changed, so I suggest that we write into some of our favorite Gun Magazines, Letters to the editor and express our Disdain that Beretta USA By act or deed is Allowing HCI to use it's famous Beretta 92/96FS as a poster Child for their website. We May get a full page add out of it....Just a thought El Jefe

September 30, 1999, 10:03 AM	#36
othermarc Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 1999 Location: Stamford, CT, USA Posts: 248	Am going ot fax a bunch of people today! Thanks El Jefe! Good form fax, and thanks for getting the #'s for me. John, gotta go with the babysteps idea. While people may realize more gun laws are ineffective, I think most of the country would not back repealing laws as they probably feel some control is needed. The angle I'm working, and it's probably the same for El Jefe, is to get them to realize gun control is not crime control. Show 'em that we feel you've made enough laws, now enforce 'em to stop these tragedies. Everyone knows a law is useless unless enforced. Ever see the Simpsons episode where they found an old law on the books saying prohibition was still ineffect, but they just had not obeyed it the last 60 some yrs? Similar idea. Buford broke some existing laws, so passing new ones is not necessary unless you are going to enforce them. Why does congress need to pass more legislation? Well, what in the hell else are they going to do with their time? It's a gosh darned shame, but the fact is we have so many useless laws cause they need ot continue to justify themselves. Until the sleeping comfy gian that is the American people awakens to the madness that is going on in DC- and <gulp> DOES something about it- they are going to keep on making useless laws. Ever read Tom Clancy? In his book "Executive Orders" most of congress is killed in an accident. The president asks America to send DC it's Doctors, Engineers, Artists, and other practical professional people. The remaining Congress and political types go ballistic, cause their worst fear comes true! Congress would be made up of the people and by the people! Shoot, could you imagine if you and I, and hundreds of others like us were in Congress? Can you imagine how amazing that would be? What would be accomplished, and not accomplished? I for one would not go sit in a fluffy office all day BSing with others. I'd say, "call me when you have something for me to vote on and I'll come down to DC. Until then, I'm going ot do something useful with my time." Ahhh...alas, it won't be like that. Not enough people willing ot vote for me, or you, I'm afraid. If only we could start all over again.

October 5, 1999, 11:46 AM	#37
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	Update on Beretta It appears that the american Beretta legal team is out of the Country....Quick trip to headquarters. Judging from the Long runtime on the disclaimer as well as the sound of frustration in the voices of their staff I certain that HCI is on the Agenda and their blatant misuse of the 92/96FS as their poster Child, I am making further inquiries, and I will let everyone know the minute we get some results! I have asked Maryanne Albert to update the banner with a more current status but nothing yet! ------------------ ...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. ..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson ... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein ... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

October 16, 1999, 02:59 PM	#38
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	Hola all, i just fired off yet another e-mail to Beretta USA and I am sending it as a FAX to Beretta In Italy as well. As I was visiting the Beretta International Site ( www.beretta.it )noticed the following in small print..... The total or partial reproduction of text, photographs and illustrations is not permitted in any form.... I guess it goes to show just how much weight that carries when HCI is allowed to basically do what it wants in that respect. I will let you know what if anything comes of it. I have been busy chewing out Colt and Faxing my Congressmen, sorry I let this slide!....God Bless, El Jefe

October 16, 1999, 03:49 PM	#39
zip Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 1999 Posts: 207	thanks i was just wondering if this had gone anywhere latly ------------------ oneshotonekill

October 19, 1999, 05:33 PM	#40
Christopher Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 1999 Location: Joliet, Il. Posts: 176	Sorry I'm a little late to the party. Been off the forums for a while, and just got back yesterday. As soon as I'm done writing this I'll shoot my e-mail off to Beretta. Better late than never, I suppose.

October 21, 1999, 01:56 AM	#41
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	Christopher, Life has thrown me a couple of curve balls as well and it has made it a bit difficult for me to bird dog this the way I want to. I received a quick note that said my e-mail was being passed off to the lawywer, the same one that is out of the country, So we will see how long it takes for a response. I was rather hoping for something a little more inciteful than...I passed it on to the lawyer....Time will tell and I really don't expect that Beretta will tip it's hand because of my badgering, but who knows, the squeaky wheel gets the grease right! keep up the calls and e-mails/faxes who knows we may get a better response! God Bless El Jefe

December 24, 1999, 01:14 AM	#42
El Jefe Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 281	You are not gonna believe this!! Beretta has been in HCI's Butt about the use of their Beretta 92 on their page, To date HCI has refused to remove it from their site HOWEVER it seems that all of our hard work was not for naught!! Beretta has forced HCI to Alter their Websight AND It has gotta hurt, they tried to make it as Unnoticeable as posible however if you go to HCI's website you will notice a disclaimer in RED on the bottom of their page and it states the following: "DISCLAIMER Our website uses images of specific firearms for illustrative purposes. Needless to say, our use of such images should not be construed as an endorsement of our objectives by the manufacturers of such firearms." Can you believe that?? That has gotta hurt like a Stick in the eye!! Now both Beretta And HCI have Disclaimers with info Concerning HCI's Use of the Beretta 92 on it's page!! Now for the follow up part....We ALL called and Gave Beretta Grief about allowing HCI to use it's Beretta 92 on it's page, Beretta said they would address the situation and they did, It is now time to get back on the Phones and on the E-mails and Praise Beretta for taking the time to Address this given the sheer amount litigation they are currently in. You can jump off to both sites from my Webpage if you so desire, HCI...Click on these experts agree, Beretta USA click on the Silver Beretta Icon. We were quick enough to drop in on them when we were outraged at what we saw, we must be just as swift with our praise and support. Here it is E-mail [email protected] (leadership Forum) or call 1-800-528-7453 and ask for the Legal Dept so that you can thank MR. Jeff Reh and his Staff. Reproduce this post at will and pass it on as only you can!! THANK YOU for all of your support, we have gotten a lot accomplished IMHO since I first posted in September of this year!! Make those calls, Send those E-mails! Take care and God Bless, El Jefe ------------------ ...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. Take care and God Bless, El Jefe

December 24, 1999, 12:59 PM	#43
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	I will mention this to them in person at the SHOT Show in a few weeks.