.357 Magnum

[bigbadwolf590]

I am new to the gun game, but I like learning from people more experienced than I. Pardon if this is a dumb question or pointless discussion . .

There are those that praise the .357 as "the best man stopper in a handgun" round. I have also read about accounts where people take a .357 JHP and are able to run some distance after taking it.

Opinions on this round, from a practical self defense standpoint and any personal stories would be great!

Compare to the .45 ACP.

[Neophyte1]

bigbadwolf590: Sir; your question is difficult. You deal with many factors; mainly bullet placement. FBI reports have many cases where the perp has been shot with an asundries of different rounds in the heart and the perp keeps trying to get out or get it on.
Why is the question. Blood flow and motivation. 30sec to 1min before falling down to stay. Now imagine the amount a mongrel can do in 30sec.

The stuff on TV where the shotie flys across the room. Fact. Doesn't happen.
Knock down will happen with the proper placed bullet between the eyes.

Ballistics, coefficients, will explain most of the answers. The reality; bullets by design are to damage tissue and specific bullets are to do more tissue damage.
So what would be "the Proper round"?

Will I be safe with a .357? I carry one in the winter. Will I be safe with a .38? I carry one during the summer.

[chris in va]

'Stopping power' is a misnomer in the handgun world. Most defensive shootings have the BG eventually bleeding out and aren't halted right away.

[Playboypenguin]

FBI reports have many cases where the perp has been shot with an asundries of different rounds in the heart and the perp keeps trying to get out or get it on.

Shot in the heart and keeps coming for 30-60 seconds???

That is a new one to me.

[Tanzer]

For some time, the .357 mag was, I believe, the most popular manstopper around. KE for KE it doesn't compare to the .44 mag, now does it? Keep in mind, if you can't handle the round well enough to place your shots, you may as well be holding a squirt gun.

[David Armstrong]

Shot in the heart and keeps coming for 30-60 seconds???

Stacey Lumm (Limm? Lamm?). Heart shot, fought back, shot BG, is back on duty today.

As mentioned, no such thing as real stopping power in handguns, but for a long time the .357 Magnum was considered the top manstopper inthe field, particularly with 125 grain JHP bullets. The .357 Sig was an attempt to duplicate the ballilstics of the old revolver round in an autolader format. A person armed with a.357 can hold their own in just about any situation if they do their part.

[bbrian]

The .357 and .45 ACP are both capable defense rounds.

Some of the posts here that reference BG super powers are getting ridiculous. There may be an odd story of a methed out BG charging someone after being shot in the heart, but the odds of you encountering this are about the same as being hit by lightening. I’d take it one step further. If you shot someone in the heart with a .357, I’m sure you can stall (or run, or shoot again) until this wound takes the inevitable effect. Even a 98lb weakling stands a decent chance in a fight with someone who has just been shot in the heart with a .357.

Now if you are thinking about a .357 as a defense round, you should determine if you can fire it and get your gun back on target quickly. If not, you might want to scale it down to a .38. The .38 is an effective defense round. As it has been said, better to hit someone with at .38 than miss with a .357.

[Playboypenguin]

Stacey Lumm (Limm? Lamm?). Heart shot, fought back, shot BG, is back on duty today

I can't find any info on that. Can you post a link?
I am betting the "heart shot" part of that story is greatly exaggerated since a puncture of the heart would be pretty fatal pretty quick.

[BillCA]

I am betting the "heart shot" part of that story is greatly exaggerated since a puncture of the heart would be pretty fatal pretty quick.

Actually, no.

The heart is a spongy mass of muscle tissue with good density. If you punch a hole through the heart, it can often seal off the puncture with only a little bit of leakage and continue pumping away. Unless you hit one of the small, vital structures like the valves, aeorta, or hit it at an angle that opens a long furrow, the heart can take a lot of abuse and keep going.

As to the .357 Magnum - it has a very good record of downing aggressors with just one or two shots. The 125gr JHP delivers 585 ft-lbs. Other calibers beat that (.41 & .44 Mag, 10mm, etc.). But no handgun cartridge is truely reliable for stopping someone with a single shot. Not even the .45.

Bullet placement is the key issue. If you can't hit either the nervous system (CNS) or cause a fast drop in blood pressure, then you'll have to aim-shoot-repeat until he falls.

I don't feel undergunned with my .357 snubbie, but I don't expect it to be a magic wand that makes BG's fall down immediately either.

[SW40F]

Originally Posted by bigbadwolf590

I have also read about accounts where people take a .357 JHP and are able to run some distance after taking it...

Hunters can tell you how far a deer can run after being fatally shot with a .30-06.

Being shot does not equal immediate immobility, unless the spinal cord is severed and thus the limbs do not receive the signals to move.

[Playboypenguin]

The heart is a spongy mass of muscle tissue with good density. If you punch a hole through the heart, it can often seal off the puncture with only a little bit of leakage and continue pumping away

After years of living in a medical family, I will have to see some serious proof of someone surviving a heart puncturing gunshot wound and living to tell the tale.

Nicking it, maybe...but puncturing the heart, I am skeptical.

A heart puncture even kills vampires.

[YukonKid]

it depends on how bad the person you just shot wants to hurt you. Most anyone will run after being shot with even a .22, but if they want to kill you bad enough then its going to take more than one .357 round to kill them.

[JohnKSa]

I can't find any info on that. Can you post a link?

Stacy Lim, LAPD

http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...27#Stacy%20Lim

http://www.kcet.org/lifeandtimes/arc...8/20060817.php

"Stacy Lim>> It shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart and cracked my rib and went out my back. It left about a tennis ball size hole in my back."

Here's another incident where a bullet (this time a .22LR) to the heart was not fatal.

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA...3/10230048.htm

It's clearly not common but it does happen.

[Playboypenguin]

The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver

Ah hah...I though the "shot through the heart" part of the story was exaggerated. Even with a minor nick to the lower muscle mass of the heart she still survived against all odds. I heart "puncture" would have left her dead in just a few short seconds...and probably instantly immobilized here since her nervous system would shut down after such severe trauma.

[funon1]

Comparing a 2" .357 to a full sized .45 is fair as both carry 7-8 rounds, and both do the job well with modern hps. But out of full sized revolvers, the .357 comes into it's own. I have only seen a couple of GSWs in my life, so I am hardly an expert, but the .357 appeared to have done the worst damage. It is hard to discount shot placement, bullet design, victim health and myriad other factors when making these judgements though. Still, if I could only have one of the two, I would not hesitate to choose the .357 Magnum.

Another place the maggie excels is protection against the large, furry quadrapeds that are able to eat you. That is a place that no stock .45 can follow, IMHO

Funon1

[JohnKSa]

I heart "puncture" would have left her dead in just a few short seconds...and probably instantly immobilized here since her nervous system would shut down after such severe trauma.

I added another link to my post after you posted. It is an incident where a person survived a heart-puncture wound from a .22LR bullet.

The majority of the time, a heart shot will not be survivable, but these two incidents indicate that they CAN be. Furthermore these incidents (and others) are ample evidence that a heart shot is not instantly incapacitating. Hunters can provide ample evidence of deer surviving for many seconds after a heart shot from a high-powered rifle. Even a heart puncture is neither instantly incapacitating nor unsurvivable.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=8880

McLaughlin said Hadayet continued to struggle after he was shot. "Even a man who has been shot in the heart has 20 seconds or more left to shoot back, and that’s apparently what Hadayet tried to do. It’s not like in the movies, where a man falls over and dies the moment he is shot."

http://www.officer.com/article/artic...ion=2&id=27121

A police officer who was shot in the heart early Monday during a car chase ignored the wound and helped try to catch the gunman before dying later at a hospital, authorities said.

Other articles make it clear that he survived for hours after being shot.

Some related material

http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/is...1/cardiac.html

Penetrating cardiac injuries have been generally classified into three categories based upon their initial clinical presentation (Table 1). First described over 20 years ago, this is a simple classification system which requires no additional assessment beyond that normally accomplished within the trauma bay (28). In one study of 64 patients classified with this system, overall survival was 23% for Group I, 79% for Group II, and 100% for Group III (29).

This indicates that even the patients in the Group with the most severe cardiac injuries have about a 20% chance of surviving.

http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/reprint/101/1/287.pdf
This article talks about survival from gunshot wounds that injure multiple chambers of the heart.

The point of all this is twofold:

1. Do not expect "movie results" from your self-defense handgun. Even a heart shot can not be relied upon to produce instant incapacitation. Unless the Central Nervous System is damaged it's unlikely that a highly determined attacker will immediately stop attacking upon being shot.

2. Do not lie down and die just because you get shot. Even very serious gunshot wounds will probably not stop you from fighting back, and don't eliminate your chances of surviving.

[Diesel1]

I am new to the gun game, but I like learning from people more experienced than I. Pardon if this is a dumb question or pointless discussion . .

They certainly aren't dumb questions, however "the best" is totally subjective.
I usually avoid conversations on the internet of 'this is best' or

There are those that praise the

The point is that shot placement trumps most caliber discusssions. People have died from one .22LR shot, and kept going after being hit with several .45's. There are too many factors involved.
The .357 JHP is one hell of a self defense round, but so are many others.

[Neophyte1]

Playboy: Sir; do a search @FBI shootings:

Now what is the best? People, animals, fish have been killed with rocks, stick,hand and it can go on.

Split the spine, between the eyes; down goes the perp.

The question; can someone run away after being shot with a .357 or a .45
Answer is YES. Underscore Can what variables?

Bigbadwolf590: Sir, I like your question. You have a great question and without questions "I" don't learn.

[Playboypenguin]

I read all those links and not one has any definitive or reliable sources that indicate a true heart puncture wound.

The one about the gunman contains a random quote by a security guard about someone being able to fight for 20 seconds after being shot in the heart but has no medical reference to the actual wound the assailant suffered or died from

The one about the cop is clearly an exaggeration by a journalist. Noone gets "shot in the heart" and continues chasing bad guys. No medical statement is made to the specifics of his wound. he most likely received a nicking shot which cause him to bleed out slowly much like the other female officer.

Just for the record I called my brother-n-law who is an emergency room doc in the south and asked his opinion. I asked what someone's chances are of surviving a puncture shot to the heart from a handgun. His answer was "as close to zero as possible without being zero." He said he has never seen it happen and even glancing hits to the heart are most often fatal without immediate surgery and usually still fatal even with surgery if any real damage has been done.

He also added that a direct shot to the heart would almost definately cause an immediate collapse of the nervous system.

So anyone who is worried a person might survive a shot to the heart from a handgun should probably be more worried that they will be struck by lighting as they are being mugged.

You guys are relying to much on a journalist's sensationalized account of an event and not true medical records and statements from medical officials.

PS: The reports you linked to the medical information referred to "penetrating cardiac trauma" that means cardiac trauma was cause by penetration of the chest cavity and not necessarily that the heart was penetrated. In fact it often goes on to refer to the "lesions" that result from penetrating heart trauma. This would be more like nicks or cuts on the surface of the heart from the penetrating object.

[44 AMP]

It was waaay back, over 20 years now....back in '86, I think....

There was this shootout between several FBI agents and two bad guys. An FBI 9mm round basically took the top off one guys heart, and yet this highly motivated individual lived for another 60 seconds, fired over 100 rnds from a Ruger Mini-14 and killed 2 FBI agents, while wounding 4 others before being stopped. There are a lot more details involved, look them up.

Basically this incident was why the FBI in its infinate bureaucratic wisdom decided that the 9mm wasn't enough, and a 10mm was needed. Then when the got a 10mm, the decided it was too much, and opted for a reduced load. S&W figured out that they could duplicate this reduced 10mm load in a round that would fit in a 9mm class gun, and the .40 S&W is born.

Interestingly enough, while the bureaucrats at the FBI could not admit that the .45ACP (which had been used prior to the 9mm) was a valid round, they did authorize agents to carry .45s and .357s while they underwent the decision making process that wound up choosing the 10mm as their new service round.

Stopping power is a much debated myth, especially among the handgun community. During the 80s the idea of the "one shot stop" was a much sought after ideal. Data collected from actual shootings was used to rate various cartridges and loads. Improvements in ammo did come about as a result, but the truth is that while certain rounds, like the 125gr .357 did have some very impressive numbers, the reality is that virtually any bullet in the right place will do the job 99% of the time.

There is nothing you can hold and fire that will work 100% of the time, no matter what (although I always thought the 90mm recoiless rifle with flechette ammo might be close). Rifles, handguns, and shotguns, all have documented failures to stop individuals, even with "perfect" hits. Not 100%. 99.9999998% maybe, for some of the best rounds, but not 100%. there are always "flukes".

So we choose rounds that come as close to the unattainable 100% as we can get, and some are very good, while others, less so. The only thing that has been proven to turn off an adversary right away is to shut down the brain. You can do this by a central nervous system (CNS) hit, either shutting down the brain, or stopping the nerve impulses from reaching the muscles (spine hit), or you can shut down the brain through blood loss. When the blood pressure in the brain drops below a certain point, the brain shuts down.

Hitting the heart, or major blood vessels is the best way to shut down blood flow to the brain. BUT, this takes time. And it can be as much as a minute before the brain shuts down, even with the heart destroyed. This isn't the usual thing, usual is a nearly instant shutdown, but unusual doesn't mean impossible, or even necessarily rare. A heart shot deer can run a quarter mile or more, sometimes. And other times it just drops. People react the same way. Sometimes it is an instant "off" and other times it takes a little while.

Many schools of thought teach that if you must shoot, shoot until your opponent goes down, and be ready to shoot some more if needed. Personally, I don't think that is a bad idea.

[JohnKSa]

I read all those links and not one has any definitive or reliable sources that indicate a true heart puncture wound.

That is not correct. I'm not going to enumerate them, but clearly the last one talks about injury to one of the heart valves from a gunshot. Since the valves are internal to the heart it's clear that the bullet had to penetrate/puncture the heart to damage the valve.

He also added that a direct shot to the heart would almost definately cause an immediate collapse of the nervous system.

And yet we have numerous reports from hunters who note that animals can remain functional for many seconds after a heart shot from a high-powered rifle. This response is so consistent that I have read articles which comment that you can identify a heart shot deer by its response. And that response is not typically "immediate collapse".

You guys are relying to much on a journalist's sensationalized account of an event and not true medical records and statements from medical officials.

Also incorrect. The last two links I provided are certainly not "journalist's sensationalized accounts" and are, in fact generated by "medical officials".

Noone gets "shot in the heart" and continues chasing bad guys.

Your reasoning is circular. Because you refuse to believe that heart wounds are survivable you refuse to admit any evidence that heart wounds are survivable. Here's another article about Officer Stewart's death.
http://www.thechief-leader.com/news/.../News/011.html

"...doctors discovered that the bullet had punctured the left ventricle of his heart. "

Here's the official press release:
http://home2.nyc.gov/portal/site/nyc...&rc=1194&ndi=1

Officer Stewart was transported to Kings County Hospital where he succumbed to the gunshot wound that penetrated the left ventricle of his heart.

What were your brother-in-law's comments regarding the survivor from the last link indicating heart valve damage and the article which stated that even Group I penetrating cardiac injuries have a survival rate of 23%?

[easyG]

No handgun caliber (or rifle or shotgun caliber either) will guarantee that the bad guy will instantly stop dead in his tracks and fall over.

But it is simply without doubt that the .357 magnum is one of the best self-defense calibers ever.

[Playboypenguin]

Also incorrect. The last two links I provided are certainly not "journalist's sensationalized accounts" and are, in fact generated by "medical officials".

Which ones contained medical/autopsy reports? The ones I saw where news articles. If you mean the medical reports concerning "penetrative heart trauma" I addressed the language of those reports.

And yet we have numerous reports from hunters who note that animals can remain functional for many seconds after a heart shot from a high-powered rifle.

And chickens can run around with their heads cut off..are you suggesting humans can do that? Our nervous systems are very different.

What do you seriously think the likelihood of a man taking a direct heart shot and surviving more than a few short seconds?

[Constantine1911]

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4800/one-shot.htm

[JohnKSa]

I addressed the language of those reports.

You dismissed them but you did not address them.

How do you suggest that a gun shot injures the valves of the heart by "nicking the heart" when the valves are internal to the heart?

What do you seriously think the likelihood of a man taking a direct heart shot and surviving more than a few short seconds?

Why would you think there's a need for speculation? I provided documentation indicating it's possible.

And chickens can run around with their heads cut off..are you suggesting humans can do that?

Actually I've read an account from WWII relating an incident where Japanese soldiers were beheading American POWs. Witnesses recount that one of the POWS got up and ran for some distance immediately after being beheaded.