I ....S T U M P E D.....an "anti"

Lavan · June 20, 2000, 12:26 PM

Some guy was in the shop telling me how he thought all handguns should be registered.

I asked why and he said that it would help stop all this craziness.

So I told him I had a .38 and the serial nuimber was 682317. Then I asked him if he wrote that down and put it in his pocket, exactly WHAT crime could he PREVENT?

He thought a bit and finally said, "I never thought about it like that."

..............BINGO...............

TexasRusty · June 20, 2000, 12:32 PM

LOL Lavan. Great Line. I think I will adopt it if that is Ok.

DorGunR · June 20, 2000, 12:38 PM

Lavan,
Way to go.

Actually, he didn't think.....period!

------------------
"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."

Coinneach · June 20, 2000, 12:38 PM

Lavan · June 20, 2000, 01:18 PM

Of course.......USE IT!

USE ..... ANYTHING!

If it works, use it. I ain't used to LOSING and if sumpin works an helps u WIN, take it an run.

Scott Evans · June 20, 2000, 02:25 PM

I can't wait to try it ....

------------------
“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”

C.R.Sam · June 20, 2000, 03:03 PM

GREAT !!

------------------
Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."

Jeff Thomas · June 20, 2000, 04:00 PM

That does work pretty well ... but, you'll occasionally get an anti-self defense gun bigot who says 'well, then we can make sure you're properly trained'.

Now, this can become a longer conversation. Anyone found a quick way to get past this perspective?

Regards from AZ

DorGunR · June 20, 2000, 04:03 PM

Jeff Thomas,
My reply would be "The Army trained me for 22 years.....how much more do I need."

------------------
"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."

FUD · June 20, 2000, 04:21 PM

DorGunR, GOOD Answer!

Donny · June 20, 2000, 05:10 PM

Lavan, I love your response. May I borrow that for my quests as well?

After reading post after post here at TFL, I'm reminded of a quote. It goes something like this:
"Great Minds think alike." I have to say it must be true.

DorGunR, I agree wholeheartedly. While I spent only a few years in the military, it seemd to be satifactory enough to have an honorable discharge, with no marks on my record.
Now that doesn't make me exemplary by any stretch, but it does mean I must have been doing something right, not wrong.

Best Regards,
Don

------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR

Jeff OTMG · June 20, 2000, 06:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Thomas:
That does work pretty well ... but, you'll occasionally get an anti-self defense gun bigot who says 'well, then we can make sure you're properly trained'.
Regards from AZ[/quote]

Just ask them to explain the link between registering a gun and proper training of the owner. The two are completely separate things.

If you are referring to licensing the owners you can go off on the 'fundamental right' vs. 'privledge' and explain that freedom of speech and religion don't require licenses. Ask them if they support that. Then point out that it could be a violation of the 5th (self incrimination) if it leads to the issuance of a warrant under the 4th which would then be a violation of the 4th. If they try to use the car comparison, let them have both barrels.

Mike in VA · June 20, 2000, 06:47 PM

Hey, Jeff, ya beat me to it - the car analoogy I mean. Ask is licensing drivers and registering cars stops speeding, reckless driving, red-light-running, DWI, etc.?

Of course it doesn't. However, education and enforcing the law does seem to modify undesireable behaviour (up to a point) and cope with those who can't be trained to play nice (sooner or later).

One might also point out that we don't mandate training for drivers, we just make 'em drive around the block and parallel park (and the quality of the 'average' driver is pretty low, wonder why?).

And of course the typical anti-self defense bigot, who knows little, if anything about guns, is exactly who you want developing curricula for firearms training, right? "Yes, sir, please tell me your credientials/experience that qualifies you to tell me (former Boy Scout w/Marksmanship merit badge, collegiate pistol team (almost made alternate for '68 Olympics), armed forces verteran) what consititutes 'proper training'. Would you like to accompany me to the range and 'show me the ropes?" warrrrgghh! fade to shot of me imitating J. Belushi twitching and convulsing on the floor. M2

[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited June 20, 2000).]

MrBlonde · June 20, 2000, 07:48 PM

Bravo!(standing ovation) Good job. I am gonna use that some time.

Kaylee · June 20, 2000, 09:46 PM

"Hi, my name is Kaylee and I'm a recovering anti-gunner.."

Kinda says it all -- ten years ago I even thought LEOs should have tranq darts, for crying out loud. Obviously I've since discovered what the rest of call "the real world."

Anyhow Lavan -- had you asked that question of me back then, my response would have been:

"Prevent? No. But if you drop the weapon to keep from being found with it, and it's recovered, they could just run a quick handy-dandy database search and find you quicker."

Any response to that?

(My first thought is that most of those searches would return "weapon reported stolen last year" or upon showing up at the house the cops would hear "that old thing? haven't seen it in years...")

Anything else?

(By the by -- I was on a police ridealong in CA a few months back, and during a routine traffic stop the dispatcher reported to the officer that the driver was registered to own a pistol. Any idea how common this is?)

Darthmaum · June 20, 2000, 10:59 PM

Lavan, WAY TO GO! can't wait to try it out sometime!

Kaylee,
First off, welcome to TFL! I haven't seen you post B4.

In RE to your question: I don't know about other states, but in TX, the DPS maintains a database of all CHL holders. When a LEO pulls a CHL holder over in their own registered vehicle, they KNOW you could be carrying.

------------------
---------------------------
"Pray as if your life depends on God, Prepare as if it all depends on you..." -Texas Preacher

**Bud Helms** · June 21, 2000, 06:03 AM

That's a good one!

TinkerTech · June 21, 2000, 07:26 AM

Without the S/N he could not prevent the crime of confiscation. Duh........

Mike in VA · June 21, 2000, 09:52 AM

Kaylee, welcome to TFL. In VA your CCW is xreffed with your driver's license. If the officer calls in, he/she will be informed of you CCW status, you are required to tell them if yuo're armed if you're stopped. M2

Gunslinger · June 21, 2000, 11:18 AM

Welcome to TFL Keylee and the real world.

For what is worth prior to my retirement from LE there were times I wished I did have a traquilizer gun......in addition to my regular side arm.

------------------
Gunslinger

Lavan · June 21, 2000, 11:56 AM

Kaylee.... If told that I could be traced by my registered gun, I would then ask ANOTHER question.

If I use my gun illegally, I will have the barrel in a vise, the firing pin gone, and the gun at the bottom of the river very quickly. Now....how is the gun going to be connected to the crime?

Lavan · June 21, 2000, 12:02 PM

Jeff Thomas....If they told me that I should have some training, I would then ask what they want to train me to do AND after I was trained, exactly WHAT accident will that prevent?

Never answer antis. Ask em questions. It changes the dynamics of the confrontation and puts them into defending their position.

Most of them are not adept at that. Also their logic is flawed in the first place so they will have a difficult time supporting it.

To answer an anti gives them the chance to say that they have "heard all that" and they reject it. Take that away from them. YOU ask the questions.

hube1236 · June 21, 2000, 02:14 PM

Just started reading "The Republic" today. The opening book is an open debate between two people: one very emotionally involved in the argument, one intent on probing. Every question or statement is met with a probing, hypothetical (what if) question. In the end the emotional (anti) is left stuttering and sweating. I like the advice to answer with a question. After a few debates, one may be able to loop the argument and leave the adversary gurgling.

June 20, 2000, 12:26 PM	#1
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Some guy was in the shop telling me how he thought all handguns should be registered. I asked why and he said that it would help stop all this craziness. So I told him I had a .38 and the serial nuimber was 682317. Then I asked him if he wrote that down and put it in his pocket, exactly WHAT crime could he PREVENT? He thought a bit and finally said, "I never thought about it like that." ..............BINGO...............

June 20, 2000, 12:32 PM	#2
TexasRusty Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2000 Location: Frisco, Texas, Collin Posts: 108	LOL Lavan. Great Line. I think I will adopt it if that is Ok.

June 20, 2000, 12:38 PM	#3
DorGunR Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,125	Lavan, Way to go. Actually, he didn't think.....period! ------------------ "Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."

June 20, 2000, 12:38 PM	#4
Coinneach Staff Alumnus Join Date: February 23, 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,272

June 20, 2000, 01:18 PM	#5
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Of course.......USE IT! USE ..... ANYTHING! If it works, use it. I ain't used to LOSING and if sumpin works an helps u WIN, take it an run.

June 20, 2000, 02:25 PM	#6
Scott Evans Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 1,380	I can't wait to try it .... ------------------ “This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”

June 20, 2000, 03:03 PM	#7
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	GREAT !! ------------------ Sam I am, grn egs n packin Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."

June 20, 2000, 04:00 PM	#8
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	That does work pretty well ... but, you'll occasionally get an anti-self defense gun bigot who says 'well, then we can make sure you're properly trained'. Now, this can become a longer conversation. Anyone found a quick way to get past this perspective? Regards from AZ

June 20, 2000, 04:03 PM	#9
DorGunR Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,125	Jeff Thomas, My reply would be "The Army trained me for 22 years.....how much more do I need." ------------------ "Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."

June 20, 2000, 04:21 PM	#10
FUD Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2000 Posts: 1,727	DorGunR, GOOD Answer!

June 20, 2000, 05:10 PM	#11
Donny Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 755	Lavan, I love your response. May I borrow that for my quests as well? After reading post after post here at TFL, I'm reminded of a quote. It goes something like this: "Great Minds think alike." I have to say it must be true. DorGunR, I agree wholeheartedly. While I spent only a few years in the military, it seemd to be satifactory enough to have an honorable discharge, with no marks on my record. Now that doesn't make me exemplary by any stretch, but it does mean I must have been doing something right, not wrong. Best Regards, Don ------------------ The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall. Adolf Hitler ----------------- "Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness. Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities. Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance." Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR

June 20, 2000, 06:16 PM	#12
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Thomas: That does work pretty well ... but, you'll occasionally get an anti-self defense gun bigot who says 'well, then we can make sure you're properly trained'. Regards from AZ[/quote] Just ask them to explain the link between registering a gun and proper training of the owner. The two are completely separate things. If you are referring to licensing the owners you can go off on the 'fundamental right' vs. 'privledge' and explain that freedom of speech and religion don't require licenses. Ask them if they support that. Then point out that it could be a violation of the 5th (self incrimination) if it leads to the issuance of a warrant under the 4th which would then be a violation of the 4th. If they try to use the car comparison, let them have both barrels.

June 20, 2000, 06:47 PM	#13
Mike in VA Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 1998 Location: Santa FE, NM Posts: 2,163	Hey, Jeff, ya beat me to it - the car analoogy I mean. Ask is licensing drivers and registering cars stops speeding, reckless driving, red-light-running, DWI, etc.? Of course it doesn't. However, education and enforcing the law does seem to modify undesireable behaviour (up to a point) and cope with those who can't be trained to play nice (sooner or later). One might also point out that we don't mandate training for drivers, we just make 'em drive around the block and parallel park (and the quality of the 'average' driver is pretty low, wonder why?). And of course the typical anti-self defense bigot, who knows little, if anything about guns, is exactly who you want developing curricula for firearms training, right? "Yes, sir, please tell me your credientials/experience that qualifies you to tell me (former Boy Scout w/Marksmanship merit badge, collegiate pistol team (almost made alternate for '68 Olympics), armed forces verteran) what consititutes 'proper training'. Would you like to accompany me to the range and 'show me the ropes?" warrrrgghh! fade to shot of me imitating J. Belushi twitching and convulsing on the floor. M2 [This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited June 20, 2000).]

June 20, 2000, 07:48 PM	#14
MrBlonde Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Posts: 473	Bravo!(standing ovation) Good job. I am gonna use that some time.

June 20, 2000, 09:46 PM	#15
Kaylee Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2000 Location: The Last Homely House Posts: 1,677	"Hi, my name is Kaylee and I'm a recovering anti-gunner.." Kinda says it all -- ten years ago I even thought LEOs should have tranq darts, for crying out loud. Obviously I've since discovered what the rest of call "the real world." Anyhow Lavan -- had you asked that question of me back then, my response would have been: "Prevent? No. But if you drop the weapon to keep from being found with it, and it's recovered, they could just run a quick handy-dandy database search and find you quicker." Any response to that? (My first thought is that most of those searches would return "weapon reported stolen last year" or upon showing up at the house the cops would hear "that old thing? haven't seen it in years...") Anything else? (By the by -- I was on a police ridealong in CA a few months back, and during a routine traffic stop the dispatcher reported to the officer that the driver was registered to own a pistol. Any idea how common this is?)

June 20, 2000, 10:59 PM	#16
Darthmaum Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 1999 Posts: 394	Lavan, WAY TO GO! can't wait to try it out sometime! Kaylee, First off, welcome to TFL! I haven't seen you post B4. In RE to your question: I don't know about other states, but in TX, the DPS maintains a database of all CHL holders. When a LEO pulls a CHL holder over in their own registered vehicle, they KNOW you could be carrying. ------------------ --------------------------- *"Pray as if your life depends on God, Prepare as if it all depends on you..." -Texas Preacher*

June 21, 2000, 06:03 AM	#17
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	That's a good one!

June 21, 2000, 07:26 AM	#18
TinkerTech Junior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1	Without the S/N he could not prevent the crime of confiscation. Duh........

June 21, 2000, 09:52 AM	#19
Mike in VA Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 1998 Location: Santa FE, NM Posts: 2,163	Kaylee, welcome to TFL. In VA your CCW is xreffed with your driver's license. If the officer calls in, he/she will be informed of you CCW status, you are required to tell them if yuo're armed if you're stopped. M2

June 21, 2000, 11:18 AM	#20
Gunslinger Junior member Join Date: January 5, 1999 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 2,105	Welcome to TFL Keylee and the real world. For what is worth prior to my retirement from LE there were times I wished I did have a traquilizer gun......in addition to my regular side arm. ------------------ Gunslinger

June 21, 2000, 11:56 AM	#21
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Kaylee.... If told that I could be traced by my registered gun, I would then ask ANOTHER question. If I use my gun illegally, I will have the barrel in a vise, the firing pin gone, and the gun at the bottom of the river very quickly. Now....how is the gun going to be connected to the crime?

June 21, 2000, 12:02 PM	#22
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Jeff Thomas....If they told me that I should have some training, I would then ask what they want to train me to do AND after I was trained, exactly WHAT accident will that prevent? Never answer antis. Ask em questions. It changes the dynamics of the confrontation and puts them into defending their position. Most of them are not adept at that. Also their logic is flawed in the first place so they will have a difficult time supporting it. To answer an anti gives them the chance to say that they have "heard all that" and they reject it. Take that away from them. YOU ask the questions.

June 21, 2000, 02:14 PM	#23
hube1236 Registration in progress Join Date: April 28, 2000 Location: New Orleans, USA Posts: 785	Just started reading "The Republic" today. The opening book is an open debate between two people: one very emotionally involved in the argument, one intent on probing. Every question or statement is met with a probing, hypothetical (what if) question. In the end the emotional (anti) is left stuttering and sweating. I like the advice to answer with a question. After a few debates, one may be able to loop the argument and leave the adversary gurgling.