Sixteen years and one week ago…

Dean Speir · April 17, 2002, 11:19 PM

One week ago today was the 16th anniversary of the fabled FBI-Miami Firefight in which an eight-man rolling stake-out squad was shot to pieces by one nightmare-ishly hard guy named Michael Platt. Had his partner-in-crime, William Matix, pulled his own freight in the furious 4½ minute engagement, the cost to the FBI would undoubtedly have been greater than two KIA and five WIA.

There have been no less than three TV re-enactments of the 11 April 1986 firefight, none more inept than ABC's half-hour "FBI: The Untold Stories" in 1991, as well as a nicely-produced "in-house" FBI training video with interviews of three of the surviving SAs. A fanciful narrative about the event was also included in the middle of John Ross' epic Unintended Consequences, fictional elements of which… specifically the kinky sex scene between two SAs and a waitress in a South Dixie restaurant… have assumed the mantle of a verity.

One volume, Dr. French Anderson's richly detailed Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight, which has done a great deal to set the record straight about what actually happened that day, actually caused the Dade County Medical Examiner to revise his official post mortem report.

I've long been a student of that seminal event, even since I caught a fascinating two-hour debriefing by Crime Scene Investigator, Sgt. David Rivers of Metro-Dade PD, in Fall 1987. Using notes from that, plus Dr. Anderson's book and the FBI's own extensive files released under a FOIA request, TGZ has updated its pages, The Ultimate After Action Report! in observance of the anniversary of that violent encounter, and in an effort to correct a couple of unfortunate mis-apprehensions.

MuzzleBlast · April 18, 2002, 08:24 AM

Well, here we go, but...
In your opinion, besides "ditch the nines", what are the lessons?

Hutch · April 18, 2002, 09:49 AM

I am no expert, and have no experience with gunfighting, but it baffles me that the FBI agents sailed into harm's way without donning armor, some without securing their sidearms, and the one who was functionally blind without glasses didn't have nerd strap on his specs. Meaning no disrespect, and using 20-20 hindsight, shouldn't these agents have been more heavily armed? As in, rifles and subguns? They had enough G2 to know they would quite possibly be in for a hellish fight. If I digested the info correctly, they had sidearms and 2 shotguns. I think the weapons and ammo they DID employ were performing as one would expect. I think they displayed poor judgement in their choice of tactics and weapons. Their bravery and marksmanship were certainly more than adequate.

Halffast · April 18, 2002, 11:09 AM

I am always interested in the Mini-14 debates that go on here. I would like to hear how some in the Anti-Mini camp would respond to Platt's effective use of one. I also wonder what the FBI Agents involved would have given to have one of their own on the scene and how it would have changed the outcome?

David

Dean Speir · April 18, 2002, 11:13 AM

There were six other SAs in the C1 Squad that day, Hutch, one of whom had an H&K MP5-SD on the backseat, and another who had an M16 beside him, probably in a special rack.

Among those six non-combattant SAs were four additional Remington Models 870.

MB, what do you think the lessons might have been?

For me, it was encapsulated in Gordon MacNeill's acknowledgement that as pricked up as he was going in, after he'd emptied his 2½-inch K-frame and slide down behind one of the fleet vehicles to reload… and realized that the fight was still raging, all the "energy" ran right out of him.

That's pretty insightful… and brings home to me the familiar exhortation of an instructor friend who's fought his way through some pretty Gawd-awful battles: "Stay in the fight! Don't quit!" ( Hint: his sig. used to read "Courage is endurance... for one moment more.")

And Halffast, it may have escaped you that this really isn't about "hardware." Save the "Mini14 v...." for the pages of S.W.A.T.

WyldOne · April 18, 2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

MB, what do you think the lessons might have been?

For me, it was encapsulated in Gordon MacNeill's acknowledgement that as pricked up as he was going in, after he'd emptied his 2½-inch K-frame and slide down behind one of the fleet vehicles to reload… and realized that the fight was still raging, all the "energy" ran right out of him.

I'm not MuzzleBlast, and I have practically no clue what you guys are talking about.

But the only "lesson" I can see from this, is don't join the FBI.....

ojibweindian · April 18, 2002, 01:08 PM

I've read the "Ultimate After-action Report" and have developed an opinion.

9mm is a good caliber. The agents were good shots, they were well armed, etc. The problem is that the two bad guys were in a serious fighting mindset and were not gonna roll over.

The lesson to be learned is that mindset plays a most significant roll in a gunfight.

Correia · April 18, 2002, 01:29 PM

"And Halffast, it may have escaped you that this really isn't about "hardware." Save the "Mini14 v...." for the pages of S.W.A.T." -Dean

That wasn't really neccesary. If one of the points Halffast sees is hardware related, then so be it. The FBI sure did seem to make a big deal about hardware now didn't they?

The lessons that I draw from this are about mind set. Platt was riddled but he kept fighting. Mireles had his arm split wide open and he still kept fighting. I think that should be a lesson to us. If you get hit, keep fighting.

If you've got armor, wear it. If you've got better weapons, use them. If you've got friends, bring them.

Try not to engage very determined adversaries with out a plan, surprise, and overwhelming force, if at all possible.

EchoFiveMike · April 18, 2002, 01:34 PM

It's almost all about mindset. Had Platt been more focused on killing FBI agents and not on getting away, the FBI would have lost 6 SA's. Had Matix not been out of the fight, same thing would probably have happened. Fact is, some people just don't handle massive violence well, especially if they are not conditioned to it. S/F...Ken M

Destructo6 · April 18, 2002, 01:40 PM

Although hardware may not the the point, it's always a point. You can't bring a pointy stick to a gunfight and expect to do well.

The right hardware, plan, mindset, and numbers are similarly important. Obviously the FBI was missing one or more elements.

Platt had everything but numbers.

BigG · April 18, 2002, 02:05 PM

Mindset. FBI blamed the hardware when they didn't have the stomach to carry the fight once they initiated felony vehicle stop. Mindset.

EDIT: This is for Citadelgrad87 and others who think the above statement is harsh. Of course I am sympathetic to the individuals involved and admire the courage of Mirielles, however, the report states that an M16, some five or six shotguns, an MP5 were in the cars and available to the FBI men. The felony car stop was VOLUNTARY (in fact if you read the FOIA stuff posted on the FBI website you will see that at least one agent could be fairly characterized as gleeful that they were doing it {the guy who lost his glasses, IIRC]). The agents could have played it a lot different but what I have trouble with is their failure to use the equipment they had beside the questionable judgment of doing the stop in the first place. Thanks for your indulgence.

EDIT

CITADELGRAD87 · April 18, 2002, 02:29 PM

Geeze, BigG, that's harsh.

I've SEEN the photos of Mirales' arm, he took a .223 to the wrist that came out the elbow, IIRC, sort of the actualization of a schoolboy's boast about what a round can do to a man.

His arm was filleted, pretty much inside out. It still looked like hell after he rehabbed.

Yet that guy ENDED the gunfight. One handed using a two handed weapon.

I'm not about to second guess anybody murdered while trying to stop these animals, not with my level of expertise, anyhow, but that man's balls must audibly clank when he walks.

ojibweindian · April 18, 2002, 02:44 PM

I agree with Echo.

Shawn Dodson · April 18, 2002, 03:16 PM

A dramatic, well-written account of events; nothing less than I've come to expect from Dean.

However I fear the following descriptions of Ben Grogan's visual impairment may not be true:[list=1][*]"Grogan, nearly blind without his corrective lenses...," and[*]"...Grogan unable to clearly locate his target without his glasses..."[/list=1] The reason I believe these descriptions are fallacious is because in the early 1990's I crossed paths with the FBI Medical Director (I don't have my notes handy otherwise I'd have provided his name), as a result of a law enforcement related article I'd published, or was publishing, about police officers with subnormal vision and who must wear prescription eyewear while on duty. Our discussion included the Miami incident, and I inquired of him about the extent of Grogan's defective visual acuity. The medical director stated that Grogan's uncorrected vision "Was not that bad." I tried to get him to be more specific, asking him a question along the lines of, "If 20/20 is considered normal vision, then Grogan's vision was 20/what?" He explained to me that the data I was asking about was Grogan's private medical information and that he couldn't share it with me. So I asked if Grogan would have been considered legally blind (20/200) without his glasses, and the medical director said "No."

Based on personal experience, being nearsighted myself (like Grogan), and also suffering astigmatism, my vision exceeds 20/200 (I'm legally blind without corrective lenses). To the best of my knowledge my visual acuity is worse than Grogan's yet all of the published descriptions of his visual impairment would be an exaggeration if used to describe me.

In addition, in Part II of The Ultimate After Action Report, the medical illustration showing the wound track of Dove's 9mm 115gr Silvertip through Platt's right upper arm is erroneous. About four years ago I discovered this error and brought it to the attention of Dr. Anderson, and he agreed with me that the illustration, as well as his description of the wound path, is incorrect.

Platt's autopsy report states the bullet passed through the biceps muscle, and the autopsy photos indicate this as well. However Anderson's medical drawing shows the bullet as passing through the triceps muscle. Anderson stated that he would revise the drawing and wound description in a future update.

Halffast · April 18, 2002, 03:38 PM

Quote:

"And Halffast, it may have escaped you that this really isn't about "hardware." Save the "Mini14 v...." for the pages of S.W.A.T." -Dean

Quote:

An adversary gets hit square in the head with a 158-grain +P, and he isn't stopped, you are having a bad day! McNeill, Mireles and Hanlon had bad days... only Grogan and Dove had worse ones. In light of this information, perhaps John Hall's "ammo failure" assessment has some merit... but then as a war veteran chum with more than three dozen confirmed kills continually asserts, "the more I see of this stuff, the more I'm convinced that nothing hand-held is absolutely reliable."

Dean,

Your own article insinuates that "hardware" at least played a part in the outcome. I know that training, mindset, and most of all, HEART , were the biggest deciding factors in this fight. However, I tend to agree with Col. Jeff Cooper...."a pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle."

I don't think you are in any position to know what might "escape" me not. You started the thread. If you don't want others' opinions, then perhaps this is not the proper place for your post?!

There are a lot of Mini bashers everywhere in the gun culture. We have many that post on this board. Some claim that the Mini doesn't even make a good boat anchor. My point is that I bet the FBI agents involved in this fight wish those claims were right!

Thanks,
David

**Mike Irwin** · April 18, 2002, 05:05 PM

The Mini-14 isn't the most accurate rifle I've ever used, but it's accurate enough, and fires an effective round. It's also reliable and has little recoil, meaning that you can get rapid, accurate shots against a target.

Not something I'd want to face.

One of the multitude of shows I've seen about the Miami shootout indicated that the agents were unprepared for how Platt and Mattix reacted when fired on -- they advanced into the fire instead of going to ground or cover -- and Mirelles said it momentarily flustered them, and a moment is all it takes.

April 18, 2002, 08:00 PM

What Mireles really meant was they weren't prepared for any resistance. No doubt they were thinking, "We're the FBI. We're tough. They'll turn to jell-o when we announce oursel...[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]??!!"

**Mike Irwin** · April 18, 2002, 09:06 PM

Jeff,

That's a patently ludicrous statement.

Mattix and Platt were know to be violent. Not a single agent on the scene expected the pair to be arrested without some sort of fight.

Poor tactics and preparation doesn't mean complacency due to being a legend in one's own mind.

MP Freeman · April 18, 2002, 09:31 PM

Slow down Mike....

Jeff, CA's comment about the FBI putting too much faith in the badge and the concept of being "The Law" is not a "patently ludicrous statement". Though I cannot comment on the motivations of the individual SA's at the time of the stop in Dade County, I would presume that faith in the badge 'may' have been a motivation for such STUPID tactics.

I do not know any SA's of the FBI, but I do know a few Poeleese officers in my town. I know that many of them put way too much faith in the badge and faith in the compliance of the suspect. How many times does a suspect charge a poeleese officer for being pulled over?

I'm just saying that I think Jeff, CA's comment has merit and could be argued as a partial cause of the SA's actions. Though I doubt it was the sole motivation.

Regards,
MPF

benEzra · April 18, 2002, 11:09 PM

Police Marksman had a good discussion of this incident in their "Officer Down" feature a year or two ago.

Shawn Dodson · April 18, 2002, 11:17 PM

Mindset, training, tactics and ammunition all played a role in the outcome.

Art Eatman · April 19, 2002, 12:18 AM

Yeah, dittoes on Shawn. Watching screwups of all sorts over a rather long time, I believe there is rarely one single factor which is really the determinant.

Bits and pieces accumulate, whether it's race cars, gunfights, whatever...

If the Bad Guys did move toward the Agents, and this was quite startling to the Agents, then the Agents had preconceived notions about the BG behavior. These notions were one factor.

Ammo was a factor. Ability to hit when under a high degree of stress was another. And so on.

How to correct every detail? I don't have a clue. Some have been talked about here and elsewhere, of course. "The Answer"? I don't think there is one. The next such arrest-effort will most likely be totally different.

Murphy's Law always works.

Art

Tamara · April 19, 2002, 12:37 AM

Everyone's looking for "The Big Lesson tm " out of this.

"If they'd only taken into account how dangerous these guys were!" (Well, yeah, they'd backshot a Wells Fargo guy or two; that's hardly Killer Kommando stuff...)

"If they'd only had the right weapons!" (Well, of course the 3rd Armoured Division standing by on Dixie Hwy and a couple of orbiting Apaches would have made it a foregone conclusion, yeah.)

"If...yadda, yadda...the right bullets!" (They tagged these guys in the head and dead-center mass. Whaddaya want? Death rays?)

If, if, if. "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas".

The fact of the matter is, we had a bunch of highly trained FBI guys who thought "We're not going to let these guys get away and maybe hold innocents hostage or get more folks killed. There's six of us here and more on the way, two of us are SWAT officers and one of them can shoot the nuts off a fly at 50 paces. Yeah, these guys have backshot a couple of rentacops and recreational shooters, but we're FBI agents and we're all pumped and ready. If they so much as look hostile, we'll fill 'em full of more holes than a Japanese drift net".

I'd be lying if I said my thoughts would've been any different under the same circumstances.

There are two lessons here. One, "Never stop fighting" has been covered already. The one that no one seems to mention is "Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you".

**Mike Irwin** · April 19, 2002, 02:07 AM

"What Mireles really meant was they weren't prepared for any resistance."

Speed up, MP, this is EXACTLY what Jeff said.

Seems to be pretty cut & dry to me.

To which I say BS. The agents that were there knew there would be trouble, why else would the have had firearms in hands in the cars? What they didn't know is how A) much trouble Mattix and Platt really were, and B) how poor their tactics planning and execution had been.

mrat · April 19, 2002, 02:20 AM

"Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you".

This is the best statement I have seen on this thread so far. I have seen the best laid plans go bad real quick. Of course it is easy to go back and critize and point out what was done wrong. The bottom line is it is a law of averages, a certain percentage of law enforcement activities will go bad.

I have been involved in hundreds of arrests in my career. The majority have been textbook. Some ended up with me thinking "What am I doing on the ground and how did I end up here?".

This is the nature of being an LEO. Sometimes we win sometimes we lose. All LEOs have to accepted the fact we might lose and get our tickets punched. It is the nature of our "business".

April 17, 2002, 11:19 PM	#1
Dean Speir Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 155	Sixteen years and one week ago… One week ago today was the 16th anniversary of the fabled FBI-Miami Firefight in which an eight-man rolling stake-out squad was shot to pieces by one nightmare-ishly hard guy named Michael Platt. Had his partner-in-crime, William Matix, pulled his own freight in the furious 4½ minute engagement, the cost to the FBI would undoubtedly have been greater than two KIA and five WIA. There have been no less than three TV re-enactments of the 11 April 1986 firefight, none more inept than ABC's half-hour "FBI: The Untold Stories" in 1991, as well as a nicely-produced "in-house" FBI training video with interviews of three of the surviving SAs. A fanciful narrative about the event was also included in the middle of John Ross' epic Unintended Consequences, fictional elements of which… specifically the kinky sex scene between two SAs and a waitress in a South Dixie restaurant… have assumed the mantle of a verity. One volume, Dr. French Anderson's richly detailed Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight, which has done a great deal to set the record straight about what actually happened that day, actually caused the Dade County Medical Examiner to revise his official post mortem report. I've long been a student of that seminal event, even since I caught a fascinating two-hour debriefing by Crime Scene Investigator, Sgt. David Rivers of Metro-Dade PD, in Fall 1987. Using notes from that, plus Dr. Anderson's book and the FBI's own extensive files released under a FOIA request, TGZ has updated its pages, The Ultimate After Action Report! in observance of the anniversary of that violent encounter, and in an effort to correct a couple of unfortunate mis-apprehensions. __________________ • Dean, jus' visiting from The Gun Zone

April 18, 2002, 08:24 AM	#2
MuzzleBlast Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2001 Location: Arkansas. Much better place since Bill and Hillary went home. Posts: 1,041	Well, here we go, but... In your opinion, besides "ditch the nines", what are the lessons? __________________ Molwn labe!

April 18, 2002, 09:49 AM	#3
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	I am no expert, and have no experience with gunfighting, but it baffles me that the FBI agents sailed into harm's way without donning armor, some without securing their sidearms, and the one who was functionally blind without glasses didn't have nerd strap on his specs. Meaning no disrespect, and using 20-20 hindsight, shouldn't these agents have been more heavily armed? As in, rifles and subguns? They had enough G2 to know they would quite possibly be in for a hellish fight. If I digested the info correctly, they had sidearms and 2 shotguns. I think the weapons and ammo they DID employ were performing as one would expect. I think they displayed poor judgement in their choice of tactics and weapons. Their bravery and marksmanship were certainly more than adequate. __________________ "First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility" -- L. Neil Smith ' I have an [in]alienable right to bear arms. I will exercise my own judgement in their use and accept responsibilty for the consequences' - Oakleaf

April 18, 2002, 11:09 AM	#4
Halffast Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 525	I am always interested in the Mini-14 debates that go on here. I would like to hear how some in the Anti-Mini camp would respond to Platt's effective use of one. I also wonder what the FBI Agents involved would have given to have one of their own on the scene and how it would have changed the outcome? David __________________ If your looking to government for the solution, you obviously don't understand the problem. Shameless Personal Plug - Read "Lights Out" A SHTF Novel in progress, by me. Molon Labe!

April 18, 2002, 11:13 AM	#5
Dean Speir Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 155	Ah, someone who read and understood… There were six other SAs in the C1 Squad that day, Hutch, one of whom had an H&K MP5-SD on the backseat, and another who had an M16 beside him, probably in a special rack. Among those six non-combattant SAs were four additional Remington Models 870. MB, what do you think the lessons might have been? For me, it was encapsulated in Gordon MacNeill's acknowledgement that as pricked up as he was going in, after he'd emptied his 2½-inch K-frame and slide down behind one of the fleet vehicles to reload… and realized that the fight was still raging, all the "energy" ran right out of him. That's pretty insightful… and brings home to me the familiar exhortation of an instructor friend who's fought his way through some pretty Gawd-awful battles: "Stay in the fight! Don't quit!" ( Hint: his sig. used to read "Courage is endurance... for one moment more.") And Halffast, it may have escaped you that this really isn't about "hardware." Save the "Mini14 v...." for the pages of *S.W.A.T.* __________________ • Dean, jus' visiting from The Gun Zone

April 18, 2002, 01:08 PM	#7
ojibweindian Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2000 Location: Huntsville, Alabama Posts: 1,198	I've read the "Ultimate After-action Report" and have developed an opinion. 9mm is a good caliber. The agents were good shots, they were well armed, etc. The problem is that the two bad guys were in a serious fighting mindset and were not gonna roll over. The lesson to be learned is that mindset plays a most significant roll in a gunfight.

April 18, 2002, 01:29 PM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	"And Halffast, it may have escaped you that this really isn't about "hardware." Save the "Mini14 v...." for the pages of S.W.A.T." -Dean That wasn't really neccesary. If one of the points Halffast sees is hardware related, then so be it. The FBI sure did seem to make a big deal about hardware now didn't they? The lessons that I draw from this are about mind set. Platt was riddled but he kept fighting. Mireles had his arm split wide open and he still kept fighting. I think that should be a lesson to us. If you get hit, keep fighting. If you've got armor, wear it. If you've got better weapons, use them. If you've got friends, bring them. Try not to engage very determined adversaries with out a plan, surprise, and overwhelming force, if at all possible.

April 18, 2002, 01:34 PM	#9
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	It's almost all about mindset. Had Platt been more focused on killing FBI agents and not on getting away, the FBI would have lost 6 SA's. Had Matix not been out of the fight, same thing would probably have happened. Fact is, some people just don't handle massive violence well, especially if they are not conditioned to it. S/F...Ken M

April 18, 2002, 01:40 PM	#10
Destructo6 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 1999 Location: Nogales, AZ USA Posts: 4,000	Although hardware may not the the point, it's always a point. You can't bring a pointy stick to a gunfight and expect to do well. The right hardware, plan, mindset, and numbers are similarly important. Obviously the FBI was missing one or more elements. Platt had everything but numbers.

April 18, 2002, 02:05 PM	#11
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Mindset. FBI blamed the hardware when they didn't have the stomach to carry the fight once they initiated felony vehicle stop. Mindset. EDIT: This is for Citadelgrad87 and others who think the above statement is harsh. Of course I am sympathetic to the individuals involved and admire the courage of Mirielles, however, the report states that an M16, some five or six shotguns, an MP5 were in the cars and available to the FBI men. The felony car stop was VOLUNTARY (in fact if you read the FOIA stuff posted on the FBI website you will see that at least one agent could be fairly characterized as gleeful that they were doing it {the guy who lost his glasses, IIRC]). The agents could have played it a lot different but what I have trouble with is their failure to use the equipment they had beside the questionable judgment of doing the stop in the first place. Thanks for your indulgence. EDIT __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC Last edited by BigG; April 19, 2002 at 11:18 AM.

April 18, 2002, 02:29 PM	#12
CITADELGRAD87 Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2000 Posts: 432	Geeze, BigG, that's harsh. I've SEEN the photos of Mirales' arm, he took a .223 to the wrist that came out the elbow, IIRC, sort of the actualization of a schoolboy's boast about what a round can do to a man. His arm was filleted, pretty much inside out. It still looked like hell after he rehabbed. Yet that guy ENDED the gunfight. One handed using a two handed weapon. I'm not about to second guess anybody murdered while trying to stop these animals, not with my level of expertise, anyhow, but that man's balls must audibly clank when he walks.

April 18, 2002, 02:44 PM	#13
ojibweindian Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2000 Location: Huntsville, Alabama Posts: 1,198	I agree with Echo.

April 18, 2002, 03:16 PM	#14
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,030	A dramatic, well-written account of events; nothing less than I've come to expect from Dean. However I fear the following descriptions of Ben Grogan's visual impairment may not be true:[list=1][]"Grogan, nearly blind without his corrective lenses...," and[]"...Grogan unable to clearly locate his target without his glasses..."[/list=1] The reason I believe these descriptions are fallacious is because in the early 1990's I crossed paths with the FBI Medical Director (I don't have my notes handy otherwise I'd have provided his name), as a result of a law enforcement related article I'd published, or was publishing, about police officers with subnormal vision and who must wear prescription eyewear while on duty. Our discussion included the Miami incident, and I inquired of him about the extent of Grogan's defective visual acuity. The medical director stated that Grogan's uncorrected vision "Was not that bad." I tried to get him to be more specific, asking him a question along the lines of, "If 20/20 is considered normal vision, then Grogan's vision was 20/what?" He explained to me that the data I was asking about was Grogan's private medical information and that he couldn't share it with me. So I asked if Grogan would have been considered legally blind (20/200) without his glasses, and the medical director said "No." Based on personal experience, being nearsighted myself (like Grogan), and also suffering astigmatism, my vision exceeds 20/200 (I'm legally blind without corrective lenses). To the best of my knowledge my visual acuity is worse than Grogan's yet all of the published descriptions of his visual impairment would be an exaggeration if used to describe me. In addition, in Part II of The Ultimate After Action Report, the medical illustration showing the wound track of Dove's 9mm 115gr Silvertip through Platt's right upper arm is erroneous. About four years ago I discovered this error and brought it to the attention of Dr. Anderson, and he agreed with me that the illustration, as well as his description of the wound path, is incorrect. Platt's autopsy report states the bullet passed through the biceps muscle, and the autopsy photos indicate this as well. However Anderson's medical drawing shows the bullet as passing through the triceps muscle. Anderson stated that he would revise the drawing and wound description in a future update.

April 18, 2002, 05:05 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	The Mini-14 isn't the most accurate rifle I've ever used, but it's accurate enough, and fires an effective round. It's also reliable and has little recoil, meaning that you can get rapid, accurate shots against a target. Not something I'd want to face. One of the multitude of shows I've seen about the Miami shootout indicated that the agents were unprepared for how Platt and Mattix reacted when fired on -- they advanced into the fire instead of going to ground or cover -- and Mirelles said it momentarily flustered them, and a moment is all it takes. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 18, 2002, 08:00 PM	#17
Jeff, CA Guest Posts: n/a	What Mireles really meant was they weren't prepared for any resistance. No doubt they were thinking, "We're the FBI. We're tough. They'll turn to jell-o when we announce oursel...[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]??!!"

April 18, 2002, 09:06 PM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Jeff, That's a patently ludicrous statement. Mattix and Platt were know to be violent. Not a single agent on the scene expected the pair to be arrested without some sort of fight. Poor tactics and preparation doesn't mean complacency due to being a legend in one's own mind. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 18, 2002, 09:31 PM	#19
MP Freeman Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Secret volcano lair Posts: 489	Slow down Mike.... Jeff, CA's comment about the FBI putting too much faith in the badge and the concept of being "The Law" is not a "patently ludicrous statement". Though I cannot comment on the motivations of the individual SA's at the time of the stop in Dade County, I would presume that faith in the badge 'may' have been a motivation for such STUPID tactics. I do not know any SA's of the FBI, but I do know a few Poeleese officers in my town. I know that many of them put way too much faith in the badge and faith in the compliance of the suspect. How many times does a suspect charge a poeleese officer for being pulled over? I'm just saying that I think Jeff, CA's comment has merit and could be argued as a partial cause of the SA's actions. Though I doubt it was the sole motivation. Regards, MPF

April 18, 2002, 11:09 PM	#20
benEzra Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Down East in NC Posts: 220	Police Marksman had a good discussion of this incident in their "Officer Down" feature a year or two ago.

April 18, 2002, 11:17 PM	#21
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,030	Mindset, training, tactics and ammunition all played a role in the outcome.

April 19, 2002, 12:18 AM	#22
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Yeah, dittoes on Shawn. Watching screwups of all sorts over a rather long time, I believe there is rarely one single factor which is really the determinant. Bits and pieces accumulate, whether it's race cars, gunfights, whatever... If the Bad Guys did move toward the Agents, and this was quite startling to the Agents, then the Agents had preconceived notions about the BG behavior. These notions were one factor. Ammo was a factor. Ability to hit when under a high degree of stress was another. And so on. How to correct every detail? I don't have a clue. Some have been talked about here and elsewhere, of course. "The Answer"? I don't think there is one. The next such arrest-effort will most likely be totally different. Murphy's Law always works. Art

April 19, 2002, 12:37 AM	#23
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Everyone's looking for "The Big Lesson tm " out of this. "If they'd only taken into account how dangerous these guys were!" (Well, yeah, they'd backshot a Wells Fargo guy or two; that's hardly Killer Kommando stuff...) "If they'd only had the right weapons!" (Well, of course the 3rd Armoured Division standing by on Dixie Hwy and a couple of orbiting Apaches would have made it a foregone conclusion, yeah.) "If...yadda, yadda...the right bullets!" (They tagged these guys in the head and dead-center mass. Whaddaya want? Death rays?) If, if, if. "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas". The fact of the matter is, we had a bunch of highly trained FBI guys who thought "We're not going to let these guys get away and maybe hold innocents hostage or get more folks killed. There's six of us here and more on the way, two of us are SWAT officers and one of them can shoot the nuts off a fly at 50 paces. Yeah, these guys have backshot a couple of rentacops and recreational shooters, but we're FBI agents and we're all pumped and ready. If they so much as look hostile, we'll fill 'em full of more holes than a Japanese drift net". I'd be lying if I said my thoughts would've been any different under the same circumstances. There are two lessons here. One, "Never stop fighting" has been covered already. The one that no one seems to mention is "Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you". __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

April 19, 2002, 02:07 AM	#24
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	"What Mireles really meant was they weren't prepared for any resistance." Speed up, MP, this is EXACTLY what Jeff said. Seems to be pretty cut & dry to me. To which I say BS. The agents that were there knew there would be trouble, why else would the have had firearms in hands in the cars? What they didn't know is how A) much trouble Mattix and Platt really were, and B) how poor their tactics planning and execution had been. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 19, 2002, 02:20 AM	#25
mrat Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2000 Posts: 863	"Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you". This is the best statement I have seen on this thread so far. I have seen the best laid plans go bad real quick. Of course it is easy to go back and critize and point out what was done wrong. The bottom line is it is a law of averages, a certain percentage of law enforcement activities will go bad. I have been involved in hundreds of arrests in my career. The majority have been textbook. Some ended up with me thinking "What am I doing on the ground and how did I end up here?". This is the nature of being an LEO. Sometimes we win sometimes we lose. All LEOs have to accepted the fact we might lose and get our tickets punched. It is the nature of our "business".