kiss the k frame 357's goodbye

[4thHorseman]

Hello, here is an article that was or is going to be written up in "Shooting Times", concerning some of Smith and Wesson's new guns and policy's. and a couple of things about the new models 666 & 665
The writers and editors of Primedia Outdoors get up close and hands on with the latest the hunting and shooting industry has to offer.


SMITH & WESSON
With the sun finally shining, Smith and Wesson led things off on the fourth day of the Primedia Outdoors Editor's Roundtable.

S&W's Joe Bergeron led off the presentation by touching on the company's line of 1911s manufactured by the Performance Center. Made by expert gunsmiths, each Performance Center 1911 features a hand fiting so precise that "it's like the slide is on hydraulics," said Bergeron when trying to explain the smoothness.

Another item Bergeron touched on was the introduction of a scandium 1911, a material previously only used in S&W revolvers. The gun is being marketed for those "looking for the reliability of the .45 ACP in a lightweight single-action pistol."

Bergeron also talked about the Sigma series saying the line deserves a second look. S&W has eliminated the high-end model from the line and it's paid dividends almost immediately with over 45,000 guns sold. Bergeron also reports that it's the most problem free style in the line-up right now


Herb Belin added, "We have every intention of becoming dominant in the 1911 market. We have high aspirations and intentions on doing the job on 1911s. So far we've not appeared to have stubbed our toe."

Herb Belin continued on and addressed the group on the revolvers that S&W brought along for evaluation. He opened his portion of the presentation by giving an update on Model 500, which has allowed S&W to regain its place as the number one handgun manufacturer in the U.S..

Belin reports that, "We can't build enough (of the Model 500). When we started making this gun, the production rate was 30 a day...now we're making 240-250 frames a day...we've shipped close to 30,000."

Belin also shared that the company is retiring the K-frame Model 65 and 66, but is reintroducing the two models as Model's 665 and 666 saying the new guns will be similar to the 65 and 66 except they'll be "L" framed guns.

"(The Model 65 and 66) is not a proper gun for current .357 loadings," said Belin

[Tamara]

So the 665 and 666 will really just be a 681 and a 686 with non-underlugged barrels?

(I guess they'll move the 617, 647, and 648 over to the L-frame, too?)

[SnWnMe]

Tam, I think they're only retiring the 357 Ks. The rest of the K-frames will soldier on. Funny how they say the K is not appropriate for 357... but the J frame is?

[4thHorseman]

Tamara, sorry to mislead ya, I went back and added 357 to the title. I didn't even think of a other calibers when I read it.
That is a real bummer to me.
Many service members and police have worn one on their sides their whole career.

[Hal]

"(The Model 65 and 66) is not a proper gun for current .357 loadings," said Belin

If, as they say the K isn't the proper gun, then what about the J?

[BusGunner007]

Ultimately, this is why I don't have a S&W in my safe...

I've almost gone there, but can't quite make myself do it.

[Tamara]

Ultimately, this is why I don't have a S&W in my safe...

Because they're discontinuing a model? I don't get it....

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

No sadness here----bought a 3'' 66 K-frame----sold it right after shooting it the first time---stingin SOB----now I have a 686P 2.5in---and am quite pleased.

[BusGunner007]

Sorry, I was suffering a bout of insomnia when I posted last night.
I chose to get Ruger revolvers based on their strength advantages, and some of the design advantages such as ease of disassembly.

Lately, I was VERY tempted to get a 649 Bodyguard in .357, which is the first gun I ever wanted ( even before they made it, I wanted the 49 ).
I qualified with a S&W Model 64 NY-1 for my State License as an Armed Guard at Brinks Armored when I worked there as a Driver.
I even bought the Hogue nylon grip for it as it was 'my' gun while I worked there.
The S&W was a fine piece of equipment, no doubt.

My statement about not getting the S&W's is more about how they just don't fit into my 'set' and that they seem to change things so often, or drop and re-introduce items.
The Rugers seem to be more steady in there availability and offerings.
I didn't mean to make a confusing statement.
I just can't seem to get into the S&W thing right now.
Maybe someday I'll have one.

[4thHorseman]

Regardless how you feel about S&W or their guns, it is a passing of an era. It's a passing of a time when things were simple and dependable.
Countless military and police have depended on them for their attributes.
I have L frames also but find them much more difficult to conceal.
The J frame is easily concealable but makes follow up shots acutely more difficult to aquire.

[Tom2]

Well great, now my 66 will become collectable. It is the oldest thing in my safe. As far as ownership. Did an action job on it and baby it. It is what I measure other guns against. Don't fire it alot with hot loads, like to do downloaded handloads with magnum brass. Not the most accurate rev. I have ever owned (Dan Wesson or even SP101) but pound for pound the best overall. Second oldest I have is a model 60. They have seen guns come and go in droves based on whims but they are the keepers. Oh, and my 640 might be a keeper too. Have not tried a super lightweight yet but those are not a necessity with the things I have now.

[liliysdad]

I think the 66/19 are the single best revolvers ever made in the .357 caliber. There is no better everyday carry wheelgun that a 2.5 inch 66 or 19, IMO..the workmanship and accuracy is incredible, and the personality is untouchable.

[FALshootist]

"Belin also shared that the company is retiring the K-frame Model 65 and 66, but is reintroducing the two models as Model's 665 and 666 saying the new guns will be similar to the 65 and 66 except they'll be "L" framed guns.

"(The Model 65 and 66) is not a proper gun for current .357 loadings," said Belin"

The K frame magnums have been around since 1957 when 357 were loaded hotter than today. They are still in production approximately 25 years after the introduction of the L frame. So now they are saying it took them 47 years to figure this out. The steel frame 60 and 640 J frames are sold in 357 magnum, and they are trying to say that the K frame is too weak, I say bull****.

If I wasn't so pisssed at this misrepresentation I might consider buying a "666" just so I could say I have "the devil's right hand". But basically, this is a case of did they lie to us for 47 years or are they lying to us now.

If they are dropping these guns because their sales figures don't cut it anymore thats one thing. But are they now admitting they duped us into buying K frame magnums for the last 47 years or maybe just the last 25?

[Johnny Guest]

I'm sorry to see it happen. Passing of an era, and all that. I have a real soft spot in my heart for the K frame S&Ws, though I'm down to, uh, five of 'em currently. I guess the 19-3 has just taken on additional value. I sorta considered it "spare" or "trading material." Still is, I guess, it'll just take a better trade to get it from me.

Johnny

[Magnum88C]

Great, another gun I have to get before they become outrageously expensive.

[Tamara]

My statement about not getting the S&W's is more about how they just don't fit into my 'set' and that they seem to change things so often, or drop and re-introduce items.

Three Screw, Hawkeye, Mark I, Security Six, .357 Maximum, No. 3, Speed Six, P-91, Service Six, Buckeye, et cetera, ad nauseum...

[Tamara]

The steel frame 60 and 640 J frames are sold in 357 magnum, and they are trying to say that the K frame is too weak

Most people would get terminal carpal tunnel and chronic ulnar nerve damage before shooting enough rounds in a dinky J-frame to damage it, whereas a dedicated shooter could give a K-frame a serious case of endshake in a year. It's all in what folks expect out of a gun, and whether it runs headlong into Smith's lifetime service policy. As the happy owner of three K-frame magnums, I don't like it, but I understand it...

[Hal]

If they are dropping these guns because their sales figures don't cut it anymore thats one thing.

ding -ding -ding We have a winner!!
Even though I personally can't stand the round butt L frame, I have to admit that anything the K can do, the L can do as well or better and keep doing it longer. Sales probably reflect that.

Boils down to nothing has changed much for me since the CNC round butt cookie cutter/wonder gun ain't my bag anyhow. The K frame .357's I like haven't been made for a couple of decades anyhow.

Betcha a few years from now Smith brings out a "Heritage Model 19", with an obscene price tag on it and people will get all goofy over how "great it is".

[Johnny Guest]

Tamara wrote:

Three Screw, Hawkeye, Mark I, Security Six, .357 Maximum, No. 3, Speed Six, P-91, Service Six, Buckeye, et cetera, ad nauseum...

Okay, I got the rest, obscure as a couple of them are. But, Buckeye? Whassat?

Hal:

Betcha a few years from now Smith brings out a "Heritage Model 19", with an obscene price tag on it and people will get all goofy over how "great it is".

Oh, yeah. Complete with ads extolling the illustrious history of the arm, and it being the “creation” of the late, great, Bill Jordan. Let’s see - - It’ll be built on the round butt L-frame, case hardened in colors, with a short underlug, no-top-rib, tapered five-inch barrel. It’ll come complete with banana-style, finger groove, laminated zebrawood stocks. In short, trying to create a “heritage” of a gun that never was, and which Inspector Jordan wouldn’t recognize, were he here to be insulted by it.

Yup, you’re probably correct, unless Smith has come to their senses and given up on that funky, no-‘count series. You’ve just convinced me, sir, and I thank you. I’ll just KEEP my ol’ pinned and recessed blue M19. It’ll be a tribute to a time in Fort Worth, 37 years past - - a young deppity skipping lunches to save his dimes and dollars toward a new Combat Magnum of his very own . . . .

Best,

[BigG]

Three Fitty Seven Combat Magnum: As I remember, ole Bill Jordan fired mostly WAX bullets out of his sidegun. They were never made for plinking with full bore loads. Shoot wadcutters for practice and load up with full steam version for duty was how it was usually explained. I can't understand why so many don't recognize a gun as a tool. The 357 Combat Magnum was designed as a comfortable belt gun with a strong bite. Using one for day to day range practice with Magnum ammo would be akin to doing commercial butchery with a surgeon's scalpel. Not a really good fit, imho. :uhoh:

[scbair]

Well, my L-frame experience is limited to an old M581. I've owned several K-frames over the years, but (foolishly) rid myself of all but 2; a 1970s vintage M19 and a 1950s vintage M&P (2 " barrel).

I carried the M19 (4" blued steel) on duty as a cop in the late 70s & early 80s. Fitted with genstag stocks and a Tyler T-Grip Adapter, using .38 Special "FBI loads" (+P 158 grain soft lead SWC HPs, for you youngsters out there), I felt pretty well armed. I was a member of my department's 4-man PPC team, using a modified M10 (6" Douglas tube and Bo Mar sight rib), and firing thousands of practice rounds annually through another K-frame led me to be pretty confident of my ability with my service arm, under stress.

The ability to use magnums, if necessary, was a plus, but I always thought the old FBI round was pretty effective "up close & personal."

Maybe the L-frame will do anything the K-frame would do, but the K-frame did all I ever asked of it.

[Tamara]

Incidentally, if the congregation will all go to their gun safes and pull out a J-magnum frame and a K-frame and direct their attention to the forcing cone area, they may notice something interesting.

Sincerely,
Tamara
(Who will, in all likelihood, tote her ex-State Department 4" RB 19-5 tomorrow to commemorate the passing of an era...)

[BusGunner007]

For the record, I think the S&W Model 19 snubnose is THE best looking handgun I've ever seen.
It's got a 'dangerous beauty' look to it.
That 'touch me, if you dare' & 'I could kill you with my looks alone' sort of profile.

I'd like to know what those 'eye' Rugers were, too.
Was one in .256 _______ ?

[FALshootist]

If you like the 2 1/2 inch 19, you may also like the 2 1/2 inch 686 7 shot. Its got a really tough "takin care of business" look to it also. It may hold up better than the k frame but it weighs more too.

Personally, I think this is a sales issue and not a strength issue with the K frames. First of all, most gun buyers buy a gun maybe shoot a box of ammo and throw it in a nightstand. Most shooters don't frequent these boards and don't shoot near enough rounds to wear out any gun. I doubt that S&W sees anywhere near enough warranty work to justify dropping the line or it would have been done years ago.

I'm sure there are a lot of folks here that shoot a lot more than I do. However, I shoot a lot more than alot of other folks. Admittedly my k frames see mostly 158 gr magnums and plus p 38s, but I will shoot 125 or 110 gr magnums when the price is right. These guns are fine. There are 47 years worth of K frame magnums, literally thousands of them floating around and in good working order. To believe even half of the internet crap you read about weak K frames is just irrational.

I think the reality here is that its not cost effective to maintain the machinery for two lines of medium framed guns, so one is being dropped. Pure cost/profit analysis and nothing more (nothing wrong with that either). It would just be nice if the company came out and said that, rather than implying that a gun they have represented and over the years has proven to be capable of 357 magnum use, is now somehow not up to the task.

[Tamara]

I think the reality here is that its not cost effective to maintain the machinery for two lines of medium framed guns, so one is being dropped.

That theory might be true if they were discontinuing the K-frame entirely, but they're not. They're only discontinuing the K-frame in .357 Magnum. The .38 Special, .22 LR, .22 Mag and .17 HMR K-frames will remain in the catalog, apparently, so they will still have "two lines of medium framed guns."

To believe even half of the internet crap you read about weak K frames is just irrational.

No more irrational than it is to think that the .38/.357 K-frames don't have forcing cones that are rather thin at the bevelled 6 o'clock area.