Is anatomy taught in handgun SD classes?

[Danindetroit]

It seems that hunters, know where to shoot game, to kill it rather effectively. It seems that people who are learning to shoot tactically, or just want to realise the full potential of their weapon, should learn human anatomy, so that they can effectively stop someone, without having to discharge a whole mag. Head shots, are nice on paper targets at 25 yards, and probably help, in accuracy for getting the feel of point and shoot, at 7 yards. It just seems that knowing where organs, and nerve clusters, on the human body are would help. Instead of 3 rounds, for 3 different BGs, it seems that shooting each one once with a possibly deady, but a 98% incapacitating shot, is better, it just seems like the last guy, has time to line you up. If this is covered, in classes, just say so or close the thread. I have had a lot of anatomy classes. It may be for the same reason that sniper training was always shut down after wwI, WWII, and korea, the fact that hunting, or deliberatly trying to kill or serious incapacitate a person is not a pretty thing. It just seems that it needs to be brought out into the open, for people who have to deal with violent offenders.

[Shorts]

Not a clue if anatomy is taught in SD classes, but like you I have hads tons of A&P. I'm a health and fitness major so that's all I studied. Going back to your question though, why would you need to get more in depth than center mass? I mean, isn't that why the targets are drawn like they are. The trunk of a person contains everything except the head. And even at that, a SC injury is more incapacitating than a head wound, and has a better chance at being injured by a center mass shot. The bones and harder structures will effectively ricochet bullets and take some good soft tissue shots. And definitely a center mass shot is a higher percentage shot than the head or leg, especially when there is a high adrenaline situation with lots of movement.

I know there are some SD classes that are geared towards close combat pistol situations, some knife and bare hand fightin. I'm sure those get pretty specific as to what areas of the body are most succeptible to injury. I guess it's just a matter of what type of classes you're taking that regulates how detailed the attack should get.

[Danindetroit]

How do you kill a BG with Body armor with center mass shots? Most center mass shot have to pass through the ribs. Many bullfighters die from being gored in the femoral artery. A .380 and centermass shots on a man who weighs 300#, just might not work. 2 shots to each leg, and his femoral arteries are severed, and maybe his sciatic nerve is bruised long enough for him to roll around until dead. This might not work on every body. It just seems that the more knowledge a person has, the better able they are to pick targets of oppurtunity, not having to wait for a perfect shot, but one that will slow the attacker so somebody can aim better. They might already teach this, I am not sure, I just wondered. It seems when something goes wrong and it is news, it is blamed on the guns, sometimes true sometimes just a scapegoat. Tactics seem to win fights, not calibers. I remember seeing an edition of G&A, and it had a guide on shot selection on deer. It just seems reasonable for people.

[John Ringo]

They usually tell people to aim for center body mass. They often discourage head-shots because there is a high-percentage of the public that would miss. I won't go into a lot of detail about this right now, but I will say that any education is better than no education.

[dawg23]

Run a search on "Doc Gunn."

Doc (real name Tony) conducts training, often with John Farnam, to cover exactly the stuff Dan has asked about. Doc is a trauma surgeon and a very skilled shooter.

I attended his lecture at Rangemaster's Winter Tactical Conference in Memphis earlier this year. Doc discussed in detail where to aim and where not to aim. He also gives a lot of good info on which cartridges to use for SD.

Tony also conducts a workshop on treating gunshot wounds - missed that class.

[brickeyee]

Failure to Stop Drill
2 shots center of mass, follow with cranio-ocular (head).
Repeat as required.

[Phil306]

Dawg23, question for you:

What was the doctor's view on pelvic girdle shots? Lots of arguing about this one...

[Shorts]

How do you kill a BG with Body armor with center mass shots? Most center mass shot have to pass through the ribs. Many bullfighters die from being gored in the femoral artery. A .380 and centermass shots on a man who weighs 300#, just might not work. 2 shots to each leg, and his femoral arteries are severed, and maybe his sciatic nerve is bruised long enough for him to roll around until dead. This might not work on every body. It just seems that the more knowledge a person has, the better able they are to pick targets of oppurtunity, not having to wait for a perfect shot, but one that will slow the attacker so somebody can aim better. They might already teach this, I am not sure, I just wondered. It seems when something goes wrong and it is news, it is blamed on the guns, sometimes true sometimes just a scapegoat. Tactics seem to win fights, not calibers. I remember seeing an edition of G&A, and it had a guide on shot selection on deer. It just seems reasonable for people.

Well sure, if he has body armor on you have to find an uncovered spot, but you said nothing about that in your original post. So, I was inclined to believe you were talking about body shots in general (you mentioned deer, do they wear body armor?). There are always going to be a million "what-ifs". The point is that in general you should always take the higher percentage shots.

If you shoot the BG and he doesn't go down, hopefully you stopped his forward movement, at lthe least slowed him down so that you can take a good shot at his knees or head.

And I'll quote you "tactics seem to win fights, not calibers", so no need to pick on the .380 is there?

[Dwight55]

For me, the whole question comes down to one practical question: what are we here for?

If we have unholstered, aimed, taken off the safety, and are now squeezing the trigger: we should have arrived here only because we are in mortal fear of our lives, the lives of someone nearby, or the threat of serious bodily harm.

That said, . . . we are not here to do anything less than stop the threat from the BG, . . . and our chosen means to stop him/her is a firearm.

Yes, we can weigh the pros and cons of this shot, that shot, the other shot: but the bottom line has to be "center of mass" until threat is eliminated. Leg shots, hip shots, head shots, arm shots, "shoot the gun out of his hand" shots, . . . all are shots of a far less percentage of "effective hit" than is the center of mass.

We generally think in terms of the 6ft 4in, 270 lb bg, on drugs, spaced out, defiant, etc. Change that line of thinking to a 15 year old girl, 4ft 9in, 85 lb bg, . . . shooting up the place, . . . I don't know anyone I would trust to anything other than a center of mass shot.

My choice for that is a 1911, .45 ACP, presently with 240 grain FMJ, 8 rounds. Once I have commenced firing, there simply is no man alive, with any type of body armor available that can march through that hail of fire and expect to harm me. True, . . . he may have accomplices that may, . . . he may get a lucky shot in, . . . things can happen.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that in the norm, in the general scheme of "most usual" the perp will not be wearing any type of body armor and the first two (I will not stop with one, . . . my training has always been two to start with) I hit him/her with, . . . will end their beligerance.

My final point is one I and others have made time and time again, . . . and will continue to do so, . . . in the end, you will do what your training has prepared you to do. If in your training scenarios, . . . you take the time to analyze, decipher, cogitate, . . . when the stuff hits the fan, you will do it then also. On the other hand, . . . if your training has you doing one set of specific tasks in a specific order, . . . you can stop it at any time, . . . but you will not be hampered by the thought processes of "hey coach, what do we do now?"

May God bless,
Dwight

[Danindetroit]

How do you know when somebody has body armor on? Is it after you are going for a reload, and they are drawing down on you? In hunting, most times if you go out with someone who is very experienced, they can tell you where to aim if it is not a perfect broadside shot. I would pass and let them take the shot. BG don't always give you a perfect shot, and you might not have anybody around, to tell you where to aim. I wondered about training classes.

This was meant to be a question to people who had attended training classes. A bullet into body armor, knocks down almost nobody. The bullet doesn't have enough energy. I rarely believe a person stands straight up, and with their chest readily exposed, asking to be shot, I might be wrong. I do not do most things the "correct" way. I shoot one-handed, turned side-ways to the target, all the way up to 44 mag.

In all my posts, I have stated carry the gun you are comfortable with. One of The first pistols I shot was a walther ppk/s .380, that my dad got in the 60's or 70's after he was robbed/kiddnapped. It is a very good gun. I did not disparage the caliber, but the tactics that might be used against a large person. I never asked if he had to use it, as it took the family almost 5? years to sell the bar, after that incident. I did not ask if he had a license to carry it either, as most city residents, were trying to probably be disarmed after the riots.

Their are always going to be a million what-ifs, and I shoot, 1 shot, left of center, to the belt line, another shot, at about the diaphram, and 1 in the upper chest, with my wife's G-27, all left of center, missing most of the spine, hoping to hit the aorta, with ranger "t" series, this round might hit some nerves. The spine is very well protected from the front, by the vertabrae body, I figure that disrupting the nerve roots is easier, where they come out of protection of the spine. Instead of fighting the muzzle lift I just try to keep the gun from moving side to side. The gun has trijicons, and I am thinking of getting the xs express sights, it is her decision, and I am hopin to find a gun for her to shoot with them. She shoots how she wants to shoot, she has more training than I do. In a mini glock, anything over 15 yds. and you should have got a medium glock, or get out. I am not disparaging glocks, but the tactics. I do not carry a gun, or plan to. I am either going to bluff the person, or get them into range or my hands, or my pocket knife.

[Shorts]

I don't know Dan, when do you know when he has body armor on? True, they don't always give you a perfect shot. That's why you have to take what is available, and that spot may not be the most devastating shot to an artery or big nerve. What if all you get is a deltoid, are you going to pass that up because there are no major life-sustaining organs contained in a delt? You are not hunting, you don't have time to think and analyze every possible shot. You have to react. You are trying to get out of or stop a fully escalated situation as quick as possible. A bullet into body armor may not knock a person down, but it is felt. And several blows may be just enough to stun him/her so you can get a "perfect" shot. And it may also be enough to give you time to get out and away.

I don't shoot "correct" either. I too shoot one-handed. I am one-handed. I don't do anything "correct" anymore.

I think we are saying the same thing. That you want the best possible bang for your buck. Shoot where you want. The way a person trains is the way they will perform during the crunch. If you can hit where you aim, that's good. That's the point.

Sorry if you felt I interefered on your post here about SD classes. Although I have not taken any, there is some common sense involved. I don't think my input is any less relevant since my "credentials" are less than others. Happy shooting.

[sm]

Even before I took Anatomy and Physiology , I observed game kills. My mentors and elders had me look up the human Anatomy in a encylopedia.

I get older and find myself passing on what passed to me. I took from their teachings [ methods] and made copies for students of the human anatomy I was teaching, not only for firearms, but for the simple sake of knowing what to go for on an attacker, and what to protect on themselves.

I dunno, made sense to me. I kinda figure there is more to this whole bit about personal responsiblity - than firearms.

I use the stuff I have learned in living 49 yrs, what subjects I took in various education levels and areas and apply to Personal Protection - myself and others.

Not long ago I used what learned in Psych course for medical students to note the person in my truck bed was most likely Schizophrenic. Situation handled, nobody got hurt, no po-po called. Family member came and picked up the person, said person went to hospital to get meds straigtened out.

The correct answer: " I know the voices are real to you, I'm sorry , NO I don't hear them".

Firearms are great tools for self defense, just one tool though, the brain is the biggest tool we have...then again a good pair of shoes ain't bad either.

[Danindetroit]

Your opinon and credentials are as valid as anybody's on this board, bottom line. We are probably saying the same thing, but people being trained are they getting certain info? I do post in a style that can be rude. The weather is changing and now it is getting warm in MI, my back is killing me, even with taking all my meds. I think the fact that you thought I disparaged a cartridge, that may have saved my father's life, bothered me, but that is my problem, and i did not mean to make it yours. I can't shoot, I barely leave my house, my back is that bad, I also have SI joint disease, and know how painful, just swelling, and a loss of a mm of joint space, can effect the sciatic nerve, in the pelvic region. So I may have to get my illieum bolted to my sacrum on both sides. After my next surgey, that will bring the amount of bolts larger than 1/4" in my body up to 16. I am thinking a .380 in this region of the body will put a person on the ground. Not dead, just wishing they were.

I do not feel you interfered, I did not know if you had taken a SD class, like from Louis awerbuck(SP?), I think you pointed out some of the flaws in my first question. I was wondering if people like this, or people just teaching combat skills, taught anatomy. It seems that a lecture on shot placement, should be taught. I guess SM teaches it. I believe the deltoid, has a large artery, at the front, and a nerve that runs behind the muscle. People who get Biceps tendonoitis, have that nerve impinged I thought. I have heard of people getting cortisone shots in the shoulder, and it injures a nerve. I cut the inside of my arm very badly when I was a kid, it was a large deep wound. The Dr. lectured me about how close I came to severing a nerve that would have seriously diminshed my arm strength, at the best, and paralyzed my hand at the worst. A deltoid shot can be a good shot. It can injure a BG, it might make their arm useless for many reasons, and the shot may hit a bone and ricochet right into the heart. I believe Pres Reagan, was shot in the armpit with a .22lr that almost killed him. I wonder if that was a lucky shot, or a planned shot?

As for the bullet proof vest, I am going by LE stories from people my wife knows. Since I do not carry it is a non-issue to me since my SD measures, include other plans. A vest doen't block a push, a left jab, or a right hook, and if it gets that far, I am hoping the adrenaline blocks out my back pain long enough, it worked when my dog was injured at a park, I was up and out of my chair and had my knife out before I knew it. I know if somebody comes in my house, they are getting #4 pellets in the legs first, and after that buck, until they stop moving.

[LAK]

Certainly there are many people who are going to start and finish with a handgun as far as any level of training, and there are those whose physical limitations might seem to preclude any other alternatives. But it is a well known fact that handguns are not without limitations and are poor stoppers - regardless of the bore size and bullet type. And I think it is misleading to instruct people with handguns and leave them with the belief that their handgun throwing the biggest meanest bullets around are going to stop any human monster that comes their way. It is useful to know that, like an animal such as a deer, a human being is potentially conscious and physically capable for ten to fifteen seconds or more even with their heart shot through. Alot can happen in ten seconds. In the case of merely aerated lung tissue the time frame might be considerably longer.

So it is benenficial to everyone without any serious physical limitations to consider the handgun as a part of their self defense, and should it prove insufficient they be prepared to fight on by any means they can. Even if no formal training or discipline of unarmed self defense be taken, knowing where the vulnerable parts are, and why, is a start. Along with the fighting mindset, it is the basis for a fighting chance.

In a hands on life and death struggle, for example, one or more hard blows to the throat at the larynx can be a fightstopper - even if temporary. One does not need to necessarily attend a formal martial arts course to learn some basic striking points and their potential affect on a target. Should the need arise, the target can be struck with the implement at hand - or the hand, wrist, elbow, forearm as opportunity presents.

I consider shooting (outside of hunting) to be a form of the martial arts, since the martial arts are by nature forms of combat with and/or without weapons (dedicated or improvised).

The pelvic girdle is mentioned by phil306; I am not a doctor, but I do know from training and study that the pelvis is a largish target, that a solid hit with the right bullet might well take a target subject off his or her feet. It does not however necessarily incapacitate the upper body. So your antagonist might still be able to do you harm; if they are within contact distance with bare hands or weapon, or firearm at greater distances.

That doesn't negate it as a useful target area since a subject not armed with a firearm might be effectively stopped if shooting elsewhere is obviously not having the desired effect. It is another example of the potential usefulness of such knowledge.

I think the idea of hitting a target with a handgun as obscure as the femoral artery is bordering on wishful thinking, but the anatomical knowledge is certainly relevent to the overall art of fighting when other weapons might be employed, like a knife for example.

Shooting center mass is generally taught in the context of the upper torso since in the center lies the vitals of the cardiovascular system. But this is not universal; consider Bill Jordan who preferred point of aim was the center waistline - the "beltbuckle". This has merit too, since this is roughly center in the body, and an arguement can be made that a solid hit or two (or more) in this area will take the fight ought of most people. It also gives considerable margin for error in elevation, since low is the pelvic area, higher is the chest area, and running through the center is the spine.

I think there is great merit to learning the topic knowledge, even if strictly in the realm of defensive shooting. But shooting a handgun (or long gun) is only one particular method and tool in the realm of self defense.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sadly, anatomy is not taught in a lot of self defense classes for handguns or for rifles. Why? Many reasons. As already noted, more often than not the focus is on making center of mass shots, only people say COM, but they mean COC, center of chest. There is a difference and it is about 3-6" where COC is higher than COM.

Why don't they teach anatomy. For one thing, too many gun instructors don't know anatomy. A Defensive Handgun 1 class I took in north Texas did include anatomy. We were told that heart shots, the ideal chest shot, need to impact to the LEFT of the bad guy's sternum, you know, where you place your hand when you say the Pledge of Allegiance. The problem is, the heart is not located there . It is pretty much located in the very center of the chest with parts present behind, and to both the left and right of the sternum.

Hunters get anatomy and are told where to shoot. Note that hunters are generally not making split second decision life or death shots while under attack. They get the luxury of time to line up their shots, wait for the best aspect of the target to be presented, and then they can take their shots. And while hunters need to be safe, they usually are not hunting in mall parking lots or in the local convenience stores where there is considerable danger to bystanders.

Along the same lines as COM shots, many instructors talk about "head" shots. This is way too vague of a description and shots to the head are often far from lethal or far from causing stops. Why? Because the face makes up a great portion of the head and you can do a lot of damage to the face without producing a stop. "Head" shots need to be categorized as catastrophic cerebral, brainstem, or high spinal cord shots. Bullets need to damage those areas, either directly via penetration or through blunt force trauma, and do significant damage. Here, 'significant' may not be a lot or may need to be a lot depending on many factors. Basically, significant means that you have to shut down the proper workings of those areas to carry brain signals.

There was a program on SEALs on one of the educational networks and the seal being interviewed was queried about the little 9mm pistols they carried. He assured the audience that you won't consider it a little caliber when he puts two shots through your heart and one through your head. Of course, that was the typical Mozambique drill and it got me to thinking...why was the oh-so-great precision shooting SEAL wasting that much ammo? Simple, they can't be certain that handgun calibers will perform in the body as needed. "Heart" shots may be deflected and never hit the heart. Head shots may never damage the CNS unless they get proper penetration of the necessary areas. On top of that, while SEALs may be good shots, they are not 100% as implied by the guy.

[Chuck Jennings]

Any classes that I have taken have concentrated on this COM dictate. Putting multiple rounds in the COM gives a great probability of hitting something that will cease the threat posed by your opponent. If multiple holes in the COM is ineffective, a headhot is advised. I believe that the COM is the best way to go when you experience the adrenaline dump that you will get. The anatomy knowlege is interesting, but not terribly useful in a stressful situation where your accuracy will in all likelyhood, not be good enough to single out specific arteries or nerves.

Their are always going to be a million what-ifs, and I shoot, 1 shot, left of center, to the belt line, another shot, at about the diaphram, and 1 in the upper chest, with my wife's G-27, all left of center, missing most of the spine, hoping to hit the aorta, with ranger "t" series, this round might hit some nerves. The spine is very well protected from the front, by the vertabrae body, I figure that disrupting the nerve roots is easier, where they come out of protection of the spine. Instead of fighting the muzzle lift I just try to keep the gun from moving side to side.

In the heat of the moment, it is unlikely that many will be able to make these kinds of decisions or be capable of such coherent thought while engaging a dynamic, moving target that is fighting back.

[carebear]

I practice for accuracy not so much that I can pick my shot on the target, but rather that I can hit whatever part of the target is exposed to me. If it goes beyond the guy standing square in front of me then I'll be probably be shooting from cover at whatever is exposed behind his cover.

I do like Awerbuck for his insistence on moving (when possible) to get a deeply penetrating shot rather than a skipping shot, but barring that, I want to be able to hit the foot if that's all I can see (for example).

I want to do whatever damage I can until the threat is done. If that means he has holes in his foot, knee and elbow, so be it.

[Danindetroit]

Their are always going to be a million what-ifs, and I shoot, 1 shot, left of center, to the belt line, another shot, at about the diaphram, and 1 in the upper chest, with my wife's G-27, all left of center, missing most of the spine, hoping to hit the aorta, with ranger "t" series, this round might hit some nerves. The spine is very well protected from the front, by the vertabrae body, I figure that disrupting the nerve roots is easier, where they come out of protection of the spine. Instead of fighting the muzzle lift I just try to keep the gun from moving side to side.

In the heat of the moment, it is unlikely that many will be able to make these kinds of decisions or be capable of such coherent thought while engaging a dynamic, moving target that is fighting back.

How does your training teach you to shoot? It has to be pick a shot, aquire that target, squeeze. That I had a pre-planned way to shoot, means that I do not have to think as much. I practice shooting like this when I could. It was not formal training, it was observation of what the gun wanted to do, and aiming as best I could. I did not state it was a perfect method. Since I do not carry a gun I will never find out if it works. My wife is trained the way she is trained. I like the though of COM, but taking the time to try to move the gun barrel to hit the same place multiple times seems/is difficult to me. I think shooting below the ribcage with a pistol has advantages, like not having to punch through bone. The aorta drops below the ribcage, and if it is hit that person will be in serious problems. There are a lot of blood vessels for a person to bleed out, and only soft tissue for the bullet to pass through.

I guess getting in some streetfights, and knowing what your body actually does is advisable. Even sparring in a Gym in front of a crowd may help. In a fight, you have to make a lot of descisions very fast, what side are they fighting from, what are they doing with their feet, it will quicken your reflexes, and make you a better shooter. Shots of opputunity may have to be weighed, you may have 5 different choices, which will you pick, to end the confrontation the quickest. The idea that the mind is the best self defense weapon is correct. It does need data to operate on.

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, this thread is sort of funny. We can teach all the anatomy we want so as to make shooters better self defense shooters since they will know where the organs are to damage, you know, like the hunters do.

Right. Hitting the critical organs would be fine, but it would be good if we could just get people to hit the person they are intending to hit. 30% hit rate is high for most police departments line officers, but considered very poor for SWAT units. Line officers and regular folks often are doing good just to hit the bad guy, anywhere.

[Danindetroit]

Do you attribute that to not realising what adrenaline will do to a person, lack of realistic training scenarios, or bad shooting. It is a part of the equation. Realism.

I am sure I have seen traffic stops, with about 4 officers, and instead of communicating instructions, the police are yelling contradictry statements. Hands where I can see them, then get out of the car, well to unbuckle a seatbelt, the hands disappear, or to open a door, or roll down a window. Training and tactics.

I took a defensive driving class for truck drivers, the instructors were out on the course, throwing orange construction barrels, and making it a very high stress situation. We told them after that portion of training was over, that it was scary having them out there. They smiled and said, that is why we did it. It works. You learn to do a lot of things accurately, while shifting 13 gears, monitoring a company radio, a CB radio, and a cell phone. I am reasonably sure I used to be able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.

[XavierBreath]

As a scrub nurse and a corpsman, I have first hand knowlege of human anatomy. I can honestly say that if I am in a lethal confrontation, I'm aiming COM. I'll shoot until the threat is stopped. Gunfighting ain't surgery. Targets move. You take what you are given. If they are wearing body armor, then my goose is likely cooked, but I'm not going to aim for sciatic nerves just in case they might be wearing armor.

[DarkKnight01]

how many people walk around with body armor on? and how many of those people are gonna rob you or a store or bank etc... getting ahold of body armor in the first place can be a hard thing to do... and it isnt cheap... sure someone who thought it out and had intelligence would think gee... before robbing this store i should get some body armor... but if they had intelligence in the first place they would have other means of income.. however if body armor truely threatens your means of stopping an attacker get a bigger gun and/or armor pierceing rounds...

and as a side note... ive seen a deer wearing body armor !!! why do you think hunters need such big guns ?!?

[Danindetroit]

Does that mean that you think anatomy should not be taught, or should be included. Like I have said this is hypothetical, theoretical, never ganna happen with me. I am curious though, I do know where to plant a 3" knife, to kill, or incapaciatate.

[carebear]

I think that the consensus among shooters and instructors is that, given the variables of any real gunfight, you're better off concentrating on the high-percentage COM (chest) shots first, then modifying if they are not effective.

Playing "pick the organ" probably wouldn't work in the closest thing to "real world" fighting we have to go by. Force-on-force training.

I know none of my military CQB got into that much detail. There are anatomical reasons why the COM is the money area but once I know that's the place to shoot for, the "why" becomes irrelevent.

"Hits are what count" followed by "Shoot the middle of what you can see" followed by "Move" are the "good enough" general rules for me.

[huntershooter]

>> It seems that hunters, know where to shoot game, to kill it rather effectively.

You would like to think so, but reality indicates otherwise! I've worked with "experienced" big game hunters who had never considered and understood target angle until their first HunterShooter event using realistic targets.

Of course, there is a big difference between a hunter-shooter and a guy who bought a deer license . . .

Fast X,
John Buol
HunterShooter.com