Man Saved From Police Bullet By Steel Plate In Head

FrankDrebin · February 23, 2005, 03:24 AM

Cops: Ammo lacks punch

Detroit Police Department starts investigation after word spreads that special bullets fail in crucial situations
February 23, 2005

BY BEN SCHMITT
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Detroit police officials are investigating the ammunition officers use after a bullet fired from a cop's gun bounced off a suspect's head and another bullet failed to penetrate the winter jacket of a suspected robber.

RELATED CONTENT
GRAPHIC: Expanding full metal jackets (Adobe PDF format, 574K)

These two recent incidents -- and rumors of others -- have touched off a fierce debate that's raging from patrol cars to the gun range to the chief's office. It's a sensitive topic in a department under federal supervision, partly because of complaints about excessive force.

Chief Ella Bully-Cummings ordered the investigation.

"Any time officers are concerned, in order to dispel those concerns, it's important that we look into the matter," said Bully-Cummings, adding that the type of ammunition the department is using "is one of the best."

The .40-caliber bullets are manufactured by Federal Cartridge Co. of Anoka, Minn. They are known as expanding full metal jackets.

The chief said they were first issued in January 2004, after years of urging by the police officers' union, which wants ammunition that will stop a threat but not so powerful that bullets plow through bodies and hurt other people.

The chief said another worry of the officers is that body-piercing bullets -- known as full metal jackets -- sometimes allow gunmen, even after being hit, to continue to advance on officers while firing. Expanding full metal jackets differ from standard full metal jackets in that their tips are filled with a silicone-like substance and are designed to stop inside the body rather than exit.

Rich Weaver, secretary-treasurer of the Detroit Police Officers Association, wants more answers. "We do know there were some recent incidents where some rounds did not take effect," he said Tuesday. "A bullet is supposed to go through winter clothes. We can't shut down for winter season."

Detroit Police Sgt. Lawrence Semczak, a supervisor at the department's gun range, insists there is nothing wrong with the current bullets.

"There's a major misperception out there right now," Semczak said. "It's all conjecture. The rounds do what they're intended to do, which is stop a threat."

Evan Marshall, a retired Detroit police sergeant who lives in Midland, has written three books on ballistics. He's a proponent of the current ammunition.

"It's certainly better than the standard full metal jacket, which will over-penetrate and endanger bystanders and other officers," Marshall said Tuesday. "A straight, full metal jacket will go through a target. It won't deform unless it hits a major bone."

Federal Cartridge Co. said in a statement Tuesday that it is "working directly with the Detroit Police Department to support all of their ammunition research needs regarding this matter. It is impossible for us to respond in detail to this specific situation without doing further examination."

Spokesman Jason Nash said in the statement: "We do have full confidence in our product based on extensive testing and previous live-fire field reports and will do all we can to support the Police Department's investigation."

Nash said Detroit's bullets are also used by numerous other departments, and he knows of no other complaints.

The first incident that sparked worry took place Feb. 1. A Detroit officer fired at a robbery suspect, who had fired a gun. The bullet hit the suspect's head but did not penetrate. He was hospitalized with a head wound, but an examination showed the bullet did not enter his skull -- perhaps because the man had a metal plate in his head from a previous injury.

"The incident raised our concern," Bully-Cummings said.

The second incident took place Feb. 12 when several officers from the 6th (Plymouth) Precinct shot and killed another robbery suspect, who was shooting at them. An officer was seriously wounded in the fusillade, and the suspect was struck 11 times. But when the officers and evidence technicians examined the man's body, they reported that at least one of the bullets had failed to penetrate his thick winter jacket.

Evans, the ballistics expert, said: "We need to provide officers with the best ammunition they can find. Whatever you get, there is no guarantee that you're not going to have problems."

The department was put under two federal consent decrees in 2003, one centering on use of force and witness detention procedures.

Ron Scott, spokesman for the Coalition Against Police Brutality, said he's more upset by the frequency of police shootings of people. According to department spokesman James Tate, Detroit police have shot and killed three people so far this year and wounded two others in five separate incidents. Tate said officers were shot at in each incident.

"I challenge them to prove that because people are wearing down coats, they need to pummel them with bullets," Scott said Tuesday. "When they keep doing it, people shoot back. They are starting a war."

Contact BEN SCHMITT at 313-223-4296 or [email protected].

mete · February 23, 2005, 06:11 AM

There are many people who have survived a bullet to the head with rifle or pistol because the bullet glanced off the curved skull ! Detroit went to 40 for better performance but used FMJs.They finally went to Federals EFMJ Which normally work well but like anything else sometimes do strange things.

SpectreBlofeld · February 23, 2005, 12:44 PM

What kind of jacket stops a .40!?

InToItTRX · February 23, 2005, 12:56 PM

Does anyone know, is a EFMJ the same as a Hydra Shock? It seems to me they both do they samething.

yorec · February 23, 2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

"I challenge them to prove that because people are wearing down coats, they need to pummel them with bullets," Scott said Tuesday. "When they keep doing it, people shoot back. They are starting a war."

Huh? What part of police shooting threats during deadly force situations doesn't this moron get? He calls it a war? Sheese...

Shoot until the threat stops. If it takes too many rounds, check out your ammo's preformance - might need something better. Sounds like good procedure to me.

USP45usp · February 23, 2005, 01:44 PM

I've heard (but cannot show proof) that a very heavy coat or jacket will stop a hollow point because it expands too early.

OTOH, I have heard of the same type of ammo getting clogged with debrie and turning into a FMJ.

Steel plate, wow, implanted body armor.

jlwatts3 · February 23, 2005, 02:42 PM

TRX,
Go to the federal website. The EFMJ is not a Hydra-Shok. The EFMJ has a "silicone implant"

under the jacket that is supposed to collapse.

Troponin · February 23, 2005, 04:19 PM

I was thinking that perhaps these officers actually missed their target numerous times and came up with this crazy story to cover it up. LOL

On a serious note, I don't see a direct shot being the culprit of a ricochet off of a skull or jacket for that matter. I am willing to bet it was on an angle and the skull or jacket simply changed trajectory.

Ok, story time. You people hear about the woman that was shot in the head in York Pa in a Giant food store parking lot? Guy didn't know the woman, just came up in a car, shot and drove off. The bullet actually hit on an angle and ricochet off of her head. Well, once again. Having a large caliber gun paid off. It didn't penatrate, but it knocked the brain off of midline due to the force of the bullet. This is a VERY significant brain injury. Fortunately, the nerves in the body eventually grow back. Within weeks she was almost back to a normal life.

chris in va · February 23, 2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

What kind of jacket stops a .40!?

A...Full Metal Jacket.

katzbalger · February 23, 2005, 06:44 PM

There is also the zippo ligther stopping a .308 wwII story..
My point being , anything can and will happen ,including a jacket stopping a bullet.
Why are they so worried anyway ,they killed the guy

There is no such thing as Overpenetration

February 23, 2005, 03:24 AM	#1
FrankDrebin Junior member Join Date: May 21, 2004 Posts: 1,101	Man Saved From Police Bullet By Steel Plate In Head Cops: Ammo lacks punch Detroit Police Department starts investigation after word spreads that special bullets fail in crucial situations February 23, 2005 BY BEN SCHMITT FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER Detroit police officials are investigating the ammunition officers use after a bullet fired from a cop's gun bounced off a suspect's head and another bullet failed to penetrate the winter jacket of a suspected robber. RELATED CONTENT GRAPHIC: Expanding full metal jackets (Adobe PDF format, 574K) These two recent incidents -- and rumors of others -- have touched off a fierce debate that's raging from patrol cars to the gun range to the chief's office. It's a sensitive topic in a department under federal supervision, partly because of complaints about excessive force. Chief Ella Bully-Cummings ordered the investigation. "Any time officers are concerned, in order to dispel those concerns, it's important that we look into the matter," said Bully-Cummings, adding that the type of ammunition the department is using "is one of the best." The .40-caliber bullets are manufactured by Federal Cartridge Co. of Anoka, Minn. They are known as expanding full metal jackets. The chief said they were first issued in January 2004, after years of urging by the police officers' union, which wants ammunition that will stop a threat but not so powerful that bullets plow through bodies and hurt other people. The chief said another worry of the officers is that body-piercing bullets -- known as full metal jackets -- sometimes allow gunmen, even after being hit, to continue to advance on officers while firing. Expanding full metal jackets differ from standard full metal jackets in that their tips are filled with a silicone-like substance and are designed to stop inside the body rather than exit. Rich Weaver, secretary-treasurer of the Detroit Police Officers Association, wants more answers. "We do know there were some recent incidents where some rounds did not take effect," he said Tuesday. "A bullet is supposed to go through winter clothes. We can't shut down for winter season." Detroit Police Sgt. Lawrence Semczak, a supervisor at the department's gun range, insists there is nothing wrong with the current bullets. "There's a major misperception out there right now," Semczak said. "It's all conjecture. The rounds do what they're intended to do, which is stop a threat." Evan Marshall, a retired Detroit police sergeant who lives in Midland, has written three books on ballistics. He's a proponent of the current ammunition. "It's certainly better than the standard full metal jacket, which will over-penetrate and endanger bystanders and other officers," Marshall said Tuesday. "A straight, full metal jacket will go through a target. It won't deform unless it hits a major bone." Federal Cartridge Co. said in a statement Tuesday that it is "working directly with the Detroit Police Department to support all of their ammunition research needs regarding this matter. It is impossible for us to respond in detail to this specific situation without doing further examination." Spokesman Jason Nash said in the statement: "We do have full confidence in our product based on extensive testing and previous live-fire field reports and will do all we can to support the Police Department's investigation." Nash said Detroit's bullets are also used by numerous other departments, and he knows of no other complaints. The first incident that sparked worry took place Feb. 1. A Detroit officer fired at a robbery suspect, who had fired a gun. The bullet hit the suspect's head but did not penetrate. He was hospitalized with a head wound, but an examination showed the bullet did not enter his skull -- perhaps because the man had a metal plate in his head from a previous injury. "The incident raised our concern," Bully-Cummings said. The second incident took place Feb. 12 when several officers from the 6th (Plymouth) Precinct shot and killed another robbery suspect, who was shooting at them. An officer was seriously wounded in the fusillade, and the suspect was struck 11 times. But when the officers and evidence technicians examined the man's body, they reported that at least one of the bullets had failed to penetrate his thick winter jacket. Evans, the ballistics expert, said: "We need to provide officers with the best ammunition they can find. Whatever you get, there is no guarantee that you're not going to have problems." The department was put under two federal consent decrees in 2003, one centering on use of force and witness detention procedures. Ron Scott, spokesman for the Coalition Against Police Brutality, said he's more upset by the frequency of police shootings of people. According to department spokesman James Tate, Detroit police have shot and killed three people so far this year and wounded two others in five separate incidents. Tate said officers were shot at in each incident. "I challenge them to prove that because people are wearing down coats, they need to pummel them with bullets," Scott said Tuesday. "When they keep doing it, people shoot back. They are starting a war." Contact BEN SCHMITT at 313-223-4296 or [email protected].

February 23, 2005, 12:56 PM	#4
InToItTRX Registration in progress Join Date: December 8, 2004 Posts: 304	Does anyone know, is a EFMJ the same as a Hydra Shock? It seems to me they both do they samething. __________________ \

February 23, 2005, 06:44 PM	#10
katzbalger Member Join Date: February 10, 2005 Location: europe Posts: 25	There is also the zippo ligther stopping a .308 wwII story.. My point being , anything can and will happen ,including a jacket stopping a bullet. Why are they so worried anyway ,they killed the guy There is no such thing as Overpenetration __________________ Chris.

February 23, 2005, 06:11 AM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	There are many people who have survived a bullet to the head with rifle or pistol because the bullet glanced off the curved skull ! Detroit went to 40 for better performance but used FMJs.They finally went to Federals EFMJ Which normally work well but like anything else sometimes do strange things.

February 23, 2005, 12:44 PM	#3
SpectreBlofeld Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Posts: 304	What kind of jacket stops a .40!?

February 23, 2005, 01:44 PM	#6
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	I've heard (but cannot show proof) that a very heavy coat or jacket will stop a hollow point because it expands too early. OTOH, I have heard of the same type of ammo getting clogged with debrie and turning into a FMJ. Steel plate, wow, implanted body armor.

February 23, 2005, 02:42 PM	#7
jlwatts3 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2004 Posts: 150	TRX, Go to the federal website. The EFMJ is not a Hydra-Shok. The EFMJ has a "silicone implant" under the jacket that is supposed to collapse.

February 23, 2005, 04:19 PM	#8
Troponin Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Pencil vain ea Posts: 380	I was thinking that perhaps these officers actually missed their target numerous times and came up with this crazy story to cover it up. LOL On a serious note, I don't see a direct shot being the culprit of a ricochet off of a skull or jacket for that matter. I am willing to bet it was on an angle and the skull or jacket simply changed trajectory. Ok, story time. You people hear about the woman that was shot in the head in York Pa in a Giant food store parking lot? Guy didn't know the woman, just came up in a car, shot and drove off. The bullet actually hit on an angle and ricochet off of her head. Well, once again. Having a large caliber gun paid off. It didn't penatrate, but it knocked the brain off of midline due to the force of the bullet. This is a VERY significant brain injury. Fortunately, the nerves in the body eventually grow back. Within weeks she was almost back to a normal life.