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Old March 22, 2005, 10:05 PM   #1
C Philip
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Dragunov SVD; Is the Romanian version that bad?

I was interested in purchasing a Dragunov SVD rifle, and I happened to find one for about $600, however, it is a Romanian version, and I have heard from some people that the Romanian Dragunov's are not very good, and a real Russian one can go for over $2000. Is this true? Would it be a waste to spend $600 on a Romanian Dragunov SVD (it comes with a scope)?
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Old March 22, 2005, 11:19 PM   #2
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The Romanian is not a true Dragunov. It's based on a AK receiver, and has a long barrel. A true Dragunov's receiver looks similar to an AK receiver but is not one. That's why the Romanian is cheaper.
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Old March 22, 2005, 11:51 PM   #3
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Pthfndr nailed it.

It's not bad, it's just not a Dragunov.

From what I hear they shoot very well though. If you want one, go for it.

The SVD has a different gas system that is designed to have more accuracy potential than the standard AK system used by the Rumanian rifle.
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Old March 23, 2005, 01:03 AM   #4
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The Romanian gun does shoot pretty well. For the money the Romanian guns are a decent deal. I have one. With mil surp I can get about 2 moa. With handloads 1.25 moa.

It is not a true SVD pattern however. The Soviet SVD utilizes a short stroke gas piston It brings out more accuracy than the romanian long stroke.

A true Soviet SVD (military model) can run up 7000. The Tiger's that were brought in as sporting rifles are around 2000.


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Old March 23, 2005, 02:55 PM   #5
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But, the Romak DOES fill the same ROLE as the Dragunov, which is the desiganted marksman rifle. It is related in design to the Yugoslav M76, which is very expensive as well. It is officially the PSL, and it does the same job as the Drag with about the same accuracy but for much less money.

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Old March 23, 2005, 02:58 PM   #6
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There was a recall on a bunch of them from a certain vendor. May want to do some research as I don't recall offhand of what exactly the problem was or who had the recall. I own a VEPR K.

Edit to add: Never mind the recall was in regards to the Norinco NDM86's only.

Re-edited to add: There are no true Romanian SVD's they ARE the Chinese made Norinco's or actual Russian Tigers!!! Go to http://www.dragunov.net/faq.htm for all the info!!! The Romanian ones are in fact based upon the RPK receiver and fall under the PSL designation as stated above!
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Old March 23, 2005, 04:21 PM   #7
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Welcome mosher!
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Old March 23, 2005, 05:56 PM   #8
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Okay are you guys saying that by using an AK RPK reciever, the Romanian rifles are 7.62x39? I was under the impression that the Romanian rifles used an enlarged version of the AK reciever chambered for the 7.62x54 cartridge of the Draganov but that they used the one peice piston/bolt carrier assembly of the AK as opposed to the two peice system used by the Draganov to reduce the mass of moving pieces and thus cut down on recoil. Whew, long sentence. Because the Romanian rifles sold in the likes of Centerfire Systems look like fun, but I'd lose just about all interest in one if it was chambered for the stubby cartridge instead of the full length rimmed round. I have nothing against the 7.62x39, it's just that I don't consider it to be a long-range round and I already have a Romanian WASR-10 with which to plink with it. Sorry if I am misunderstanding you guys.
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Old March 23, 2005, 05:58 PM   #9
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No the RPK styled receiver is just that, it can be chambered in anything from 5.45 x 39, 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 54 and even .308/7.62 x51 Nato. These Romanian PLD's are chambered in 7.62 x54.
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Old March 23, 2005, 06:44 PM   #10
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I have owned a Romanian 'Draganov' and I now own a Dragunov Tiger that I paid close to $3500 for in excellent condition with original setup. The Romanians are a cheap imitation to the Draganov. They are not as accurate nor as reliable as the Authentic Drag's. With my Romanian, I would only pull around 3" groups at 600 meters, and I am a government trained former sharpshooter so my shooting error is null or none. With my Draganov Tiger, I am shooting around 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at roughly 800 meters. That is about all that can be expected from a Soviet Block rifle.

You can find "cheaper" Dragunovs on the market, but do not expect to pay less than $1500. Also, you literally have to do a head hunt to find them. There are only about 800 in the U.S. right now due to the Clinton Ban on imports. Although, they may be re-imported soon due to the recent lift of the ban, but I wouldn't expect to pay any less for them due to the collectability of them.

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Old March 23, 2005, 08:22 PM   #11
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I think most people would be perfectly content with a rifle capable of 1/2 MOA groups at 600 meters, let alone a sub $1000 semi-automatic rifle. What ammo were you using? It doesn't sound like you are very content with the accuracy of the Romanian rifle but I personally don't think that is anything to scoff at.
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Old March 23, 2005, 10:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
With my Draganov Tiger, I am shooting around 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at roughly 800 meters.
That's 0.16 to 0.22 MOA at "roughly" 875 yards.

By "roughly 800 meters" do you, by chance, mean "about 50 yards"?
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Old March 23, 2005, 10:25 PM   #13
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Okay, this is flaming, but Luckey is FOS. The Romanian isn't a cheap knock-off. Romania was not a central-core Warsaw Pact country, just like Yugoslavia, and therefore they did not get 1st Tier small arms support from the Soviets. Note their use of the SKS long after it was obsolete (like the Yugos and Albanians). The Drag was a design the Soviets only shared with the Chinese (and was later copied by the Iraqi's and other folks similar). Both Romania and Yugoslavia designed their own designated marksman rifles, both around the AK action which known to be reliable. As a result, the Romanians developed the PSL and the Yugos the M76 (and later variants). The SVD is theoretically a better design for accuracy. However, in the field, practical accuracy between the three designs is basically the same. The SVD may have the edge, but not much.

Now, the SVD is generally better built, using a machined reciever and a better finish. The trigger is better as well, but the Romanian trigger can be easily improved. The current PSL's on the market (Romak-3's) are good rifles capable of acceptable accuracy in the same general range as the Chinese NDM's, true SVD's, and Tigres. None of these will hold a candle to a good Savage or Remington, but they look much neater.

In the end, they are more real than Tigres, at much lower prices but with equal performance and the ability to mount the exact same optics.

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Old March 23, 2005, 11:38 PM   #14
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LuckyInKentucy, you must be either the luckiest person I've come accross or FOS. I collect shotgun news articles/gun tests for just this reason - extracted the 'real' dragunov accuracy test and the romanian psl accuracy test for comparison. They were both suprisingly close in accuracy with the dragunov just edging out the romanian. The romanian psl would do 1.25-2.5moa depending upon the ammo, the dragunov 1-2moa. The dragunov tests were interesting as each group experience a flier to through it off.

Romanian PSL:
Wolf 148gr fmj 2.5 moa
Wolf 200gr extra match 1.25 moa
Domestic 174gr match 1.25 moa

Dragunov:
174 gr black hills match 1.25 moa
174 gr sellier and bellot match 1.25 moa
200 gr wolf extra match 1.37 moa

600m tests with the dragunov were on the order of 6++ inch groups. My BS meter pegged with luckyinkentucky's report of 1.5-2in groups at 800m accordingly. Consider yourself a lucky as winning the powerball with a semi-auto that accurate.....

Check out the following site, it provides a comprehensive analysis of the real dragunov, variants and the romanian psl/romak for comparison.

http://www.dragunov.net

Both the real dragunov and psl were designed as marksman rifles used to provide squad support to 600m. Good enough to hit a man sized target at 600m with quick follow up shot capability to take out multiple targets at that range. They were not designated as 'sniper' classified rifles capable of sub moa accuracy as what the western bolt actions are distinguished by. The western philosophy is more on the order of 'one shot one kill' with the role differing in taking out high priority targets while remaining concealed. These precision tack drivers bolt action are hard pressed to do "1.5-2in groups at 800m"

According to SGN the dragunov has less felt recoil due to the short gas system than the long stroke psl platform. My take is the PSL is a good buy for the $$$ and is a great shooter and a blast to cycle rounds through. I have one and have absolutlely no regrets. I can regularly do 1.5moa with cheap wolf ammo, sometimes slightly better if i do my part. Its fit/finish are slightly better than the average romanian ak but still not a trophy type of finish as the dragunov is.

IMHO the dragunov is more of a collectors type/investment rifle where the psl is more of a shooters rifle.

For the $ though the saiga 308 seems to be hard to beat ($250 is hard to beat). Suprisingly the 16" versions are reported as out shooting the 22" variants due to less barrel harmonics. 16" accuracy reported at 1.5moa or slightly better, not bad for just a 16" rifle... Dont need another 308 though, have too many (AR10, M1a, Fal, Savage sniper)..... the safes are full and overflowing, need to get rid of one in order to make some room, perhaps the 8mm fn-49 but not sure about that....something about an 8mm semi auto that makes me smile....
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Old March 24, 2005, 08:44 AM   #15
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This one time at band camp I shot sub 1/2moa at 900 meters with a wet roll of toilet paper and a trombone......
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Old March 24, 2005, 10:06 PM   #16
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Good article on them in the latest Guns Magazine by Holt Bodinson.

Lucky's post on the BS Meter

TRUTH --------------**++**-- BS

Instruments don't lie
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Old March 26, 2005, 10:22 PM   #17
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Call me anything you want, but I will promise you that there is no one here that has 1/2 of the training I do. So, before you go and call me a liar, see what the Corps Qual Standards are for the 1000 meter range. Those of you who are saying that it is BS are either not very knowledgable about what people other than "The Shotgun News" have to say about things, or are just jealous because there is no way in hell you could shoot that good.
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Old March 26, 2005, 10:57 PM   #18
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No amount of training will turn a Dragunov into a .22MOA rifle at 875 yards.

Sort of like saying that if you trained more than any of the other drivers, you could win the Indy 500 with a Ford Mustang.
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Old March 26, 2005, 11:37 PM   #19
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The Dragunova’s thin barrel could not realistically be free floated so that there tells you it’s probably not going to hold ½ inch groups. Its accurate to its max of 600 meters at 800 meters it only has a 50% chance of hitting a stationary man-sized target.

LuckyInKentucky are you sure you were shooting at 600 meters. I wouldn’t have trouble believing 600 centimeters.
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Old March 27, 2005, 06:48 AM   #20
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So Lucky, don't your parents have parental controls on your computer or is The Firing Line one of the sites that you can still access past Net Nanny?
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Old March 27, 2005, 08:36 AM   #21
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Let's stay on topic, friends.

Look, most of us on the 'net boards have made a comment or two that was misinterpreted, misconstrued, or misunderstood.

If someone makes a seemingly outlandish comment, try to let it go, or, if you can't, please keep your responses light! If you are personally offended by the content, drop down to the bottom of the page and hit the "Contact Us" button. Or send a PM to any Staff member. REPORT THE POST if it is important to you. All such concerns are handled promptly and taken seriously.

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Old March 27, 2005, 09:23 AM   #22
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Hey Lucky

Lucky..did you ever post at Martialtalk.com?
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Old March 27, 2005, 10:53 AM   #23
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Never heard of that site. I mostly hang around on computer tech sites, due to my educational background/ training. Although my home page is forcerecon.com, from which I am a member . Actually, this is the first firearms related site I have been on. I got on here looking for answers to reloading questions and a few other topics. In the Corps, we always had ammo handloaded and matched to the rifle. Here in the world, I don't have that.

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Old March 27, 2005, 01:19 PM   #24
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Aw, hell, give him a break!

I've got several 1-shot groups that rival Lucky's at those ranges.
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Old March 27, 2005, 01:52 PM   #25
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Admit it Gewehr98, your one shot groups were even better than that. But you are a government trained former sharpshooter so your shooting error is null or none. I heard some of your 600M one shot groups were merely .308 across, and your 800M one shot groups expanded to no more than 7.62mm.

Some say it is the gun, personally, I think you are a fine judge of wind drift and drop.
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