BATFE goes postal in Richmond VA

[skidmark]

From www.vcdl.org in the VCDL Alerts Archive 8/18/05

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who
seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their
heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at
the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the
member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show!
The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about
the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was
going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to
buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to
the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun
today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached
by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer
said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a
business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a
lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you
are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the
end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up
empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had
a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing
a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he
didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher
neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens
who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told
Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for
this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with
Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters,
went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on
Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000
this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no
longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a
firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not.
Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's
name, badge number, and department.

I missed this one because of a fluke chance. Don't know if I'm glad or sad I missed going.

stay safe.

skidmark

[mete]

Just one more sign of an out of control gov't !!

[johnbt]

"Don't know if I'm glad or sad I missed going."

You didn't miss much and it certainly wasn't crowded. I was there for a couple of hours and had easy access to all the tables (the ones with guns anyway.).

I bought a BBQ sandwich on the way out - nothing else - no ammo, no books, no nothing. I saw a Rem 3200 Trap gun I liked for $850 - until I picked it up and saw the pitting on the receiver and the rust in the barrels. Oh, and it hadn't had the factory upgrade to reinforce the stock either. I don't even shoot trap, I just like the fit of a trap stock.

John

[cpileri]

I hope Agent Schmuckatelli comes to my house to ask me or my wife about my neighbors or myself:

"Did you know your husband was
going to a gun show today?"

Yes.

"Did you know your husband was going to
buy a gun today?

Who are you? Can I see some identification? I am sorry, he doesn't tell me all his plans.

"Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun
today?"

Which neighbor? Of course not, he doesn't check in with me.

How do you feel about him doing so?"

Fine with me, I guess.

approached
by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out

Am I being arrested? Are you going to read me my Miranda Rights? can you articulate your Probable Cause? no? Am I being detained? Yes? Can you articulate your Reasonable Suspicion? Wether or not I am a lawyer is not relevant at this time. Can you articulate your Reasonable Suspicion? no? Have a nice day. Yes? I have nothing further to say without my legal counsel present...


"Did you know you need a
business license to sell a gun at this show?

I have nothing to say without legal counsel present...

I have seen you at a
lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you
are."

(silence)
_________________________________

Ok, dont feel like doing the lawyer routine: just clam up and leave as soon as Agent Schmuckatelli releases you without saying a word at any time. Keep and eye and ear out for any identifying items on the agent: name tag, badge name or number, physical description, etc. Write these down as soon as you get home. Call a lawyer immediately and place him/her on retainer to begin a contractual relationship.


BATFE would no
longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a
firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened

No, really. I really, really do have a bridge for sale. Honest!


C-

[XavierBreath]

That is one of the more flagrant abuses of power I have seen, almost unbelievable. Hopefully the head that this idea came from will roll. Whatever happened to confidentiality? Speaking of that, is not the background check considered confidential information? Correct me if I'm wrong. Is this not a violation of civil rights? Could a class action lawsuit be filed due to the violation?

I'm not an attorney, but even a layman can see a problem here!

[cpileri]

Dear TFLers-

Don't worry, cpileri. I come by your house alot more than you think.

Regards,
S-

[EOD Guy]

The whole thing smells like BS to me. I'd like to see a link to a news article or BATF release.

[johnbt]

If the man running www.vcdl.org says people contacted him about this and that he talked to so-and-so about thus-and-such then you can take it to the bank. Period.

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Life Member

[rick_reno]

If this is fact - it was no doubt just an oversight by the BATFE and local law enforcement. I doubt it's true given we have leadership in Washington who obviously support the 2nd Amendment - and they'd never allow something like this to happen.

[pax]

Rick,

You left out the sarcastic smiley.

pax

You have the right to remain helpless. Should you choose to waive this right, anything you do may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an assailant. If you cannot find one for yourself, the court will release one for you. -- Steve Munden, quoted by Jeff Cooper in his commentaries

[sendec]

I'd like to hear straight from a neighbor or a first hand account......some hard corroboration.

[Mr. James]

What johnbt said. Phil Van Cleave does not pander and does not trade in false hysterics (excessive exclamation points notwithstanding ), unlike so many of the money-whores who claim to represent gun-owners' interests.

Take it to the bank, period.

And, no, kind people, this sort of thing will not make the Times-Dispatch or the comPost.

Bob James
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA
GOA
SAF

[Sneevil]

More evidence that government has way too much power and money.

[Mike Irwin]

I knew I should have gone to that show.

They could have run to Fairfax and talked to my dogs.

My neighbors, most of them gunowners, would have been highly amused.

[johnbt]

This gun show was held at RIR in Henrico County, the location of the now world famous $50 used i-BOOK sale stampede. The county school system started off employing about 7 police officers, but when 5,500 people rushed the gate at Richmond International Raceway to get one of the 4-year-old i-BOOKS they had to bring in about 60 or 70 more - some in riot gear. Maybe you saw the picture of the smashed baby stroller on the nightly news?

Must be something in the water. :barf:

John

[rangermonroe]

I cant seem to find the article on the website.

This sounds too outrageous to be true.

[johnbt]

click on www.vcdl.org

click on 'VA-Alert Archives' on the right side of the page.

It's the top Alert.

Then go back and sign up for the e-mail Alerts.

You can join, too!

JT

[rangermonroe]

Ok, I see it now.

I just went to the "archives" link, and it was not there.

It is pretty sickening if it is true.

If the agents asked my trashy neighbors how they felt about my purchase of a hand gun today, and it was stolen tomorrow by said trashy neighbors, wouldn't they bear some responsibility?

Also does the ATFe camp out in front of liquor stores and behave in the same manner?

[sendec]

Uh, how would the agents know where anyone lived? Were they like seizing paperwork while sales were taking place? So they just raced over while the NICs check happening?

[Sulaco2]

I am no where near a BATFE supporter, but even for the fine folks that brought you Wako, this seems over the top. ONE more hard source please.

[skidmark]

OK, so everybody is asking for confirmation/corroboration.

I know Phillip Van Cleave enough to say "Hi" to him at gun shows and at local political stuff. I also know he pretty much runs www.vcdl.org by himself, although the organization is a whole lot more than just him and the web page.

So I sent an e-mail this PM, and got a response. Here it is, and if Phil does not like that I posted without asking him I will apologize in person next week when I see him.

I will update it sometime over the weekend.

At 6:55 PM -0400 8/19/05, [skidmark] wrote:
>Is there anything since the 8/15 VCDL Alert?
>
>I have seen the issue all over the forums and BBSs, but nothing
>since a post from somebody over at American Malitia who says they
>were caught up in it.

I'm going to chill tonight, do some shooting at the range tomorrow (Dominion Shooting if anyone wants to come by about 11 AM) and then check www.vcdl.org to see if he has posted. If not, I'll check Sunday.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Sulaco2]

Not sure this is an independant hard source. Like a newpaper account, police or victim first person account.....Not saying it didn't happen but if it did you would think there would be holy He*** from the NRA or SOMEBODY besides one on line report/alert. Standing by

[skidmark]

I received this from an vendor friend who was not at the C&E show in Richmond. I asked if he had heard anything from sources NOT connected to VCDL.

I get rumors about what went and reports from a few dealers who were there. It is something that Steve Elliott will make a federal case about and file siute against them, ATF, Bush and the the entire Republican Party, if it is only half true.

I'm going to accept his word that *something* happened, and wait to see what else shows up corroborating the events or giving more detail.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Hamhawk96R]

"The whole thing smells like BS to me. I'd like to see a link to a news article or BATF release."

These abuses may or may not have happened, however, being a cop, I know of more than a few peace officers who feel the public should not own firearms. Knowing that, AND also knowing that there are still officers, local, State and Federal, who abuse their power, don't think for a second something like this COULDN'T happen. There are all kinds of knuckleheaded activites that law enforcement engages in, Most of which is never heard about.

Additionally, why would the feds do a press release about that, if in fact its true? And remember this: The general public is still more intimidated by federal law enforcement than by state or local. The feds know this and use it to their advantage, mostly for good, sometimes not.

[jeff_troop]

i dont believe the part about them going to homes and harrassing the family. get real friends.